INSAS Indian Small Arms System

[RAM]

Saddled with Insas, Army wants new AK-47s

NAGPUR: The indigenous 5.56x45mm Insas (Indian National Small Arms System) rifle has been the standard assault weapon for the Indian Army since the late 1990s. However, the jawans using it in counter-insurgency operations find it ineffective.

As part of the new Army doctrine, the gun is meant to incapacitate the enemy, rather than kill. Insas has a smaller calibre, which means it has less power. This is because — and it's the official view — injuring an enemy can lead to enemy soldiers getting engaged in tending the wounded, thus yielding a tactical battlefield advantage.

The technocrats who interacted with soldiers in the forward areas were told that this theory does not work with terrorists who, apart from attacking in small numbers, are never bothered about evacuating their injured. Hence, the soldiers say, they want to shoot to kill, rather than maim.

The soldiers also spoke about practical difficulties in using Insas. It's accurate but not as rugged as the AK-47 used by terrorists, they say. Also, its sling often snaps while firing, making it fall during manoeuvres. The sling also obstructs the rifle's sight. But most of all, the size of the sling never took into account the bullet proof jacket worn by jawans. As a result, it falls short and is uncomfortable to hold. This hampers quick reaction. Insas also does not have a rapid fire feature; it shoots only three rounds in a single burst.

''The barrel overheats with continuous firing. The magazine cracks even on falling, which is common during action. Oil spillage while firing is also major trouble,'' said a source quoting soldiers. ''Zeroing (adjusting the sight for aim) has to be done each time the rifle is opened to clean or for any other reason. Lack of proper zeroing hampers the working of night vision device,'' said the same source.

The total additional weight — around 40 kg with bulletproof jacket and signalling equipment — that a soldier carries is also a matter of concern, as is the colour of the rifle: they want it in brown which offers better camouflaging. On the positive side, Insas's transparent magazine helps soldiers keep a count of bullets.

Former director general of infantry, Lt General Shanker Prasad, said Insas is antiquated and the Infantry needs a modern rifle. The Army has repeatedly asked for new assault weapons, but nothing has moved. It's learnt that forces are now expecting new indigenously developed AK-47 rifle said to be an improvement on the original.

Read more: Saddled with Insas, Army wants new AK-47s - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-AK-47s/articleshow/4979790.cms#ixzz179NmdCNw​

 

[maomao]

^^^^ This is an old example of TOI lobbism, which has been debunked earlier with IA going for more and more INSAS, even OMAN is placing orders for INSAS

 

[vinay535]

when INSAS were made ,the basic idea was to injure, not to kill and to conserve bullets . I guess INSAS have done that well. The problem is army is not fighting a conventional war where this tactic would have been useful but they are fighting terrorist who come here for their last mission and dont stop even if other terrorist get injured.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Guys you are talking about an age old problem with INSAS. Please read or discuss or tell about latest news which is useful. Coming to the problem with INSAS, DRDO has made signifiacant changes to the INSAS rifle and THE INDIAN ARMY is completely satisfied with the presently manufactured INSAS rifles........ If you have doubt ask Kunal bhai about this........

 

[Kunal Biswas]

can any one of those Insas rifles actually penetrate Level III bullet proof vest at the effective range of about 400 meters and ensure a kill? Level III BP vest are designed to stop an 7.62x51 mm or lets say an A.K round.

does our army use 5.56 x 45 mm full metal jacket armor-piercing ammo? or anything like that?

Yes..
All SS109 5.56mm in Indian Army are FMJ, Core is constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose..

 

[utubekhiladi]

Yes..
All SS109 5.56mm in Indian Army are FMJ, Core is constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose..

Kunal Bhai, i am sorry to bother you again. i am afraid i have few more questions to ask you.

- so does all our jawans who are equipped with standard insas rifle have 5.56 FMJ ammo or the regular 5.56? (i dont know what ss109 is )
- I have heard about Insas LMG. it has 30 round magazine and can go full auto. so my question is if INSAS LMG is to take the role of squad automatic weapon, why not make INSAS LMG to accept drum or belt fed magazines?
- do you think its will be nice to have a variant of INSAS rifle which can fire high caliber ammo such as 7.62
- can INSAS rifles be silenced?
- what other bells and whistles does our CURRENT INSAS rifles have? (such as extended mag, dual mag, red or holographic sights, scopes, lasers and visions etc)
- have we developed any indigenous sniper rifles other than Vidhwansak?
- what kind/level of bullet proof vest does our jawans wear? is there enough BP vest for each and every jawans. i heard rumors that our BP vest are too heavy. please shine some light into this.

:happy_2: happy_2: Sorry for the trouble.... if these question were already addressed then could anybody please point me in the right direction.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal Bhai, i am sorry to bother you again. i am afraid i have few more questions to ask you.

- so does all our jawans who are equipped with standard insas rifle have 5.56 FMJ ammo or the regular 5.56? (i dont know what ss109 is )
- I have heard about Insas LMG. it has 30 round magazine and can go full auto. so my question is if INSAS LMG is to take the role of squad automatic weapon, why not make INSAS LMG to accept drum or belt fed magazines?
- do you think its will be nice to have a variant of INSAS rifle which can fire high caliber ammo such as 7.62
- can INSAS rifles be silenced?
- what other bells and whistles does our CURRENT INSAS rifles have? (such as extended mag, dual mag, red or holographic sights, scopes, lasers and visions etc)
- have we developed any indigenous sniper rifles other than Vidhwansak?
- what kind/level of bullet proof vest does our jawans wear? is there enough BP vest for each and every jawans. i heard rumors that our BP vest are too heavy. please shine some light into this.

:happy_2: happy_2: Sorry for the trouble.... if these question were already addressed then could anybody please point me in the right direction.

1. All Insas & Tavor are feed 5.56mm FMJ rounds..

2. IA follows Brits techniques, While charging its better to have a lighter LMG ( 30rnd MAG feed ), In kargil IA did felt for belt feed GPMG but it was soon forgotten as WAR was over, Strangely today's BRITS carry both FN-MAG and fn-minimi..

3. We already Use BREN mg( 7.62mm ) with Insas Mg..

4. No INSAS is not silenced, But we use 9mm Silenced Carbine..

5. Insas can be feed with 30rnd Mag, Dual mags can be done, Almost all kind of Scopes can be used on Insas Rail..

6. No..

7. We Wear 10kg Bp plates on both sides with no trauma plates, It can stop AK bullets from 100-50m, Infantry boys have enough BP, Cant say the same for other branches..

 

[Ray]

The LMG teams carries its ammunition.

Further, the rest of LMG ammunition in magazines is distributed ammunition amongst the riflemen of the section.

On coming under fire, the riflemen (or Rifle Group) take position to 'fix the enemy'. During this period a team member of the LMG Group runs to each rifleman carrying the extra magazines and brings it to the LMG Group. The LMG Group gives fire support and the Rifle Group starts it manoeuvre and attacks the enemy at the objective.

If one had belt fed ammunition for LMGs , as is for the MMG, the ammunition distributed would be in belt boxes. Carrying a belt box in hand would restrict the soldier from doing his primary task. However, if the LMG ammunition was being carried in magazines, it would be kept in the Scale B and the rifleman would be able to perform the primary task, even on the move.

The foreseeable terrain in which they would have to fight their battles during the Cold War did not contemplate mountains or footslogging since the operation terrain was the plains and built up area well connected by roads and subsidiary roads. Therefore, manpacked combat was not their prime concern and hence their weapons are designed to suit their op requirement.

It is a different kettle of fish for them, now that they are in the mountains of Afghanistan.

If you visit ARRSE (the unofficial British Army website), you will get some idea of what they are doing!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In Future we should carry both FN-MAG & Insas LMG in a single squad..

 

[Patriot]

Indian Army Scouts For F-INSAS Assault Rifle

As part of the Indian Army's phased future infantry soldier as a system (F-INSAS) programme to create a fully integrated infantry soldier, Army HQ has floated requirements [PDF] for a new assault rifle that will, potentially, be license-built in large numbers. A questionaire provided with RFI points to what the Army is looking for in its new ambidextrous assault rifle:

The Army has put down its preference for a modular assault rifle with changeable multiple caliber barrels to support 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x51mm, 6.8x43mm and 6.5 Grendel rounds. The rifle needs to have an integrated sighting system that includes a luminous tipped flip-up iron sight, telescopic sight and a holographic reflex sight with a visible laser illuminator. It clearly wants an advanced under-barrel grenade launcher with a standalone firing mode governed by a multipurpose fire control system.






http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/12/indian-army-scouts-for-f-insas-assault.html

 

[gogbot]

The rifle needs to have an integrated sighting system that includes a luminous tipped flip-up iron sight, telescopic sight and a holographic reflex sight with a visible laser illuminator.

I am confused it has to have what signts.
Don't tell me it needs to have all of them at once.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am confused it has to have what signts.
Don't tell me it needs to have all of them at once.

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?t=17336&p=214095#post214095

 

[Rahul Singh]

The Army has put down its preference for a modular assault rifle with changeable multiple caliber barrels to support 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x51mm, 6.8x43mm

Thats asking for [to be developed] 007's gun. Wonder why they need all the calibers in one rifle? Doesn't it show lack of professionalism on part of Army? Why they don't know which caliber suits local needs? Is it because they don't believe in doing any in-house research and survey? Wonder why Army can't sit together with ARDE and improve upon INSAS IAR and use it till final requirements for F-INSAS is out and field testing of its Mk-1 variant is done? What will happen if field testing MK-1 F-INSAS asks for different need from IAR or proves multi caliber rifle useless? Will it not be a complete waste of tax payers money? This RFI is raising thousand many questions.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Rifle Factory Ishapore: Pictures from RFI Calendar of Year 2011

The following pictures have been scanned from the RFI (Rifle Factory Ishapore) Calendar of the year 2011, which was kindly gifted to me by my 'friend', who is an employee at the RFI. [Part 02 of 02]

N.B.: These pictures provide an in-exhaustive list of RFI products.

Originally Posted By Pmaitra..

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9576/r556kalantak07foldableb.jpg

 

[pmaitra]

PDC: Pre-Discharge Chamber

^^ Thanks Kunal.

More information about the Kalantak'07 from the original post:

PDC: Pre-Discharge Chamber

There has been enough speculation about the short cylinder under the barrel of the Kalantak'07, highlighted in red boxes in the two images below:

Name: It is called the PDC or Pre-Discharge Chamber.

Operation: When the bullet passes the gas-outlet on top, some of the gas goes into the gas-pipe on the top of the barrel and pushes the piston back. Now, the bullet travels further forward and part of the remaining expanding gas gets into the PDC under the barrel and expands (and cools down due to Joule-Thompson effect). As the bullet exits the barrel, there is a sudden reduction in pressure at the barrel end and the the gas inside the PDC is sucked out.

Purpose: Reduction of the temperature, and consequently, the flash of the exhaust gas following discharge of the bullet from the barrel; the flash being otherwise extremely noticeable in short barreled firearms.

Patent: Yes. Owned by OFB.

Source: My 'friend', a junior employee at RFI today asked his 'sir' and actually met one of the scientists who perfected this device.

 

[Anshu Attri]

is it new paras gear?????

 

[gogbot]

is it new paras gear?????

That is what drdo is trying to pitch to the army.
odds are it will be turned down.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

is this para gear under finsas?btw it looks supercool and really different from things which come out of drdo labs.can anyone please provide the link to the above picture.

 

[sayareakd]

 

[Kunal Biswas]