INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

Aditya Mookerjee

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Russians want another $700 mn for Gorshkov

Russians want another $700 mn for Gorshkov

New Delhi: Just as India grudgingly prepared itself to re-negotiate with Russia on its demand to more than double the original cost for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, Moscow has conveyed another shocker to New Delhi that the deal will cost another $700 million.

This makes the deal worth $2.9 billion, which is almost thrice the original amount agreed upon when the agreement was first reached on January 29, 2004 by the NDA Government for $974 million. While India did expect cost-escalation to the tune of $350-400 million in the course of refurbishing the old ship, Russia stunned India by proposing a $1.2 billion hike in November 2007 that pushed up the cost to $2.2 billion.

It took several rounds of official-level talks and then the visit by Defence Minister A K Antony to Moscow for the UPA government to consider Russia�s request. Finally, the Cabinet Committee on Security gave its approval in December, around the time Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was visiting India, to renegotiate the Gorshkov deal in view of the cost escalation.

However, India has now been informed that on February 10, Medvedev signed on a final deal amount of $2.9 billion after �thorough analysis� of the refurbishing and trial costs. This was conveyed by a Russian team that�s here for talks on the deal. It�s headed by Deputy Minister in-charge of Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Alexander Fomin and includes Nikolai Kalistratov, Director General of Sevmarsh Shipyard where the Gorshkov is being refurbished.

The revised offer has surprised the Indian delegation stunned as it was expecting to find some �middle ground� to the earlier proposal made by Moscow. India has already paid $500 million as per terms of the initial contract. The Russian delegation has said that regardless of the outcome of this round of negotiations, Sevmarsh wants an immediate payment of $190 million for the work that�s underway.

While this wavering by Russia could set off a diplomatic row, Moscow is firm that it will meet the delivery deadline of 2012. The first of the series of trials, the Russian team has said, would start next year. However, the trials alone have been estimated at $500 million which could increase depending on prevalent Oil costs.

Sources said Russia wants to ensure it bears absolute no cost in the entire deal. Admiral Gorshkov, which has not sailed much while in active service after it caught fire, needs to be completely refurbished. While India is building its own indigenous aircraft carrier, the progress has been slow and the date of completion has now been pushed to 2014-15.

2004-�09: A 5-YEAR RUSSIAN DRAMA

Jan 2004: Original deal signed by NDA Government to purchase the carrier and complement of MiG 29 K fighters for $974 mn.

April 2007: Russia says cannot deliver on time, also need to increase price as shipbuilders underestimated amount of work required

Nov 2007: Russia says the Gorshkov will cost India another $1.2 bn

Feb 2008: A team headed by the Defence Secretary inspects the Gorshkov

May 2008: India makes an advance payment of $250 mn, pending price re-negotiations

June 2008: Russia puts extra workers on the job, says more advance payments needed

Dec 2008: CCS gives approval to re negotiate contract. By now, India has paid $500 mn extra

Jan-Feb 2009: Final round of negotiations on
The question is, the I N S Vikramaditya is a ship, which is needed in the immediate context, but, when is 'immediate'? The Indian crew of the vessel, need to be trained, the planes need to be integrated, and instead of this happening, we are postponing the delivery of the ship. Cannot we take delivery, and make the necessary adjustments, in our own shipyards? We have not built a VSTOL aircraft carrier, if we want a VSTOL carrier, so why not allow for the Admiral Gorshkov to be delivered with the basic VSTOL system in place?
 

Kunal Biswas

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This is what happen when you relay too much on imports..
 

p2prada

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The question is, the I N S Vikramaditya is a ship, which is needed in the immediate context, but, when is 'immediate'? The Indian crew of the vessel, need to be trained, the planes need to be integrated, and instead of this happening, we are postponing the delivery of the ship. Cannot we take delivery, and make the necessary adjustments, in our own shipyards? We have not built a VSTOL aircraft carrier, if we want a VSTOL carrier, so why not allow for the Admiral Gorshkov to be delivered with the basic VSTOL system in place?
Sh!t happens in defence related projects. Anyway to answer your question we don't have any free shipyards for this level of work. Even our smallest shipyards are busy for the next 10 years.

Imports, exports, your own industry, none of this matters. This is on a case by case basis. 35 years of building stealth aircraft, the US is stuck in the same quagmire with the F-35. Ballooning costs, unrealistic expectations etc etc. Some projects simply get stuck with no end in sight like the Gorky, F-35 or even the LCA while some projects are done at record times like the Barak II SAM and the Brahmos missile.
 

Galaxy

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[h=1]Navy pilots to go to Russia for carrier-based training[/h]
New Delhi, Nov 24 (PTI) Ahead of proposed induction of Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier by end of next year, the Navy will be sending a team of 10 pilots to Russia for training in operations of MiG-29K fighter planes from the warship. India had signed a deal with Russia in 2004 for purchasing the carrier along with 16 MiG 29Ks. As per the understanding between the two countries, a team of 10 pilots will be in Russia around three months before the scheduled induction of battleship in December next year, Navy officials told PTI here. Russia has given the assurance to train Indian pilots for arrested carrier landings and deck take-offs, they said. The training is likely to be done at the NITKA facility in Ukraine, which was built during the erstwhile Soviet era for training pilots for ship-borne operations. In India, such training will take place later at the naval air base, Hansa, in Goa. Naval pilots are already flying the MiG 29Ks, several which have already been commissioned at its base in Goa. The aircraft are carrying out shore-based operations and will continue to do so till the arrival of the carrier. India has also signed a contract with Russia for providing another 29 MiG 29K planes for its future requirements. All these aircraft would be deployed on the Russian-made warship.

Navy pilots to go to Russia for carrier-based training, IBN Live News
 

bhramos

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[h=1]Navy pilots to go to Russia for carrier-based training[/h]
New Delhi, Nov 24 (PTI) Ahead of proposed induction of Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier by end of next year, the Navy will be sending a team of 10 pilots to Russia for training in operations of MiG-29K fighter planes from the warship. India had signed a deal with Russia in 2004 for purchasing the carrier along with 16 MiG 29Ks. As per the understanding between the two countries, a team of 10 pilots will be in Russia around three months before the scheduled induction of battleship in December next year, Navy officials told PTI here. Russia has given the assurance to train Indian pilots for arrested carrier landings and deck take-offs, they said. The training is likely to be done at the NITKA facility in Ukraine, which was built during the erstwhile Soviet era for training pilots for ship-borne operations. In India, such training will take place later at the naval air base, Hansa, in Goa. Naval pilots are already flying the MiG 29Ks, several which have already been commissioned at its base in Goa. The aircraft are carrying out shore-based operations and will continue to do so till the arrival of the carrier. India has also signed a contract with Russia for providing another 29 MiG 29K planes for its future requirements. All these aircraft would be deployed on the Russian-made warship.

Navy pilots to go to Russia for carrier-based training, IBN Live News
why do we need to go to Russia. as we already have that Facility in Goa. Shore-based test facility (SBTF)!!!!



was this not operational yet???
 

p2prada

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why do we need to go to Russia. as we already have that Facility in Goa. Shore-based test facility (SBTF)!!!!



was this not operational yet???
They are moving to the actual thing. It is in Russia, so the pilots have to go there.

The SBTF was used.
 

bhramos

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They are moving to the actual thing. It is in Russia, so the pilots have to go there.

The SBTF was used.
i think already, these pilots were trained on US Carriers before, i think they were trained on Sea Hawks right.
 

ace009

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The question is, the I N S Vikramaditya is a ship, which is needed in the immediate context, but, when is 'immediate'? The Indian crew of the vessel, need to be trained, the planes need to be integrated, and instead of this happening, we are postponing the delivery of the ship. Cannot we take delivery, and make the necessary adjustments, in our own shipyards? We have not built a VSTOL aircraft carrier, if we want a VSTOL carrier, so why not allow for the Admiral Gorshkov to be delivered with the basic VSTOL system in place?
This is a case in point where the pro-Russian lobbies in Indian Military went into a deal with Russia without proper understanding. On top of that, MoD in particular and GoI in general have shown very little spine - at this point, IN should put their feet down, stand up and say that they are ready to write off the $500 million already given to Sevmarsh as a sunk cost and forget about the f**king Gorshky. There is no point in sending good money after bad etc etc. MoD should also make it clear that Sevmarsh will be permanently blacklisted by India and in the future any Russian company, including Rosoboronexport has to give a guarantee of delivery at the time promised AND at the PRICE promised, or else THEY will be charged for the delay. This is how most private sector deals work - you put that in your contract - if the contractor cannot deliver in time, within the price or in the quality promised, they will be taken to court and have to pay a penalty for each and every delay/ cost runover/ quality issue.
The world is lining up to sell to India - it is clearly a buyers market - Russia cannot f**k around with India anymore - time we stood up and said that to their face - or else this kind of blatant ransom demands will go on forever - what promise is there that this $2.9 billion will not go up again later?
 

charlyondfi

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They are moving to the actual thing. It is in Russia, so the pilots have to go there.

The SBTF was used.
Need further verification, right? It's winter now, even the shipyard just use this to postpone Gorshkov sea trial test for another 1 to 2 months. Then how do India pilots got on "actual thing". Does winter not means the deck more slippery? Not to mention sea trial is more critical than pilots ones. Someone does got more details on pilots go for what training?
 

bhramos

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[h=1]Navy pilots to go to Russia for carrier-based training[/h]
Russia has given the assurance to train Indian pilots for arrested carrier landings and deck take-offs, they said. The training is likely to be done at the NITKA facility in Ukraine, which was built during the erstwhile Soviet era for training pilots for ship-borne operations. In India, such training will take place later at the naval air base, Hansa, in Goa.


Need further verification, right? It's winter now, even the shipyard just use this to postpone Gorshkov sea trial test for another 1 to 2 months. Then how do India pilots got on "actual thing". Does winter not means the deck more slippery? Not to mention sea trial is more critical than pilots ones. Someone does got more details on pilots go for what training?
see they are going to Ukraine, and later may be Russia.
 

charlyondfi

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see they are going to Ukraine, and later may be Russia.
Guess that explains, thanks...

And, yes, considering India is going to have 3~4 carrier, IN should have full-scale, self-sustaining, training facility for its own 150~200 pilots. And actually ASAP for even only investment return...
 

LETHALFORCE

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10 Indian pilots to undergo training in Russia: Voice of Russia

10 Indian pilots to undergo training in Russia


Ten Indian pilots will arrive in Russia to undergo training to fly the MiG-29K carrier-based fighters.

According to an agreement signed by Russia and India, India will purchase the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft-carrier and 16 carrier-based fighters.

Russia has pledged to complete the training of Indian pilots three months before the handover of the aircraft carrier to India due to take place in December next year.

The training is likely to take place at a pilot training facility in Ukraine.
 

bengalraider

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@Kunal- seems we ended up posting the same pics whitin seconds of each other:p
 

anoop_mig25

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where u guys such pics its from . some blog or u have your guys posted there who clicks pics on your behalf :thumb::confused:
 

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