INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[Kunal Biswas]

Interesting, can IN get such PAD armed ships any soon? Its must for future planning. But still basic CIWS is expected on any AC, we won't have basic area defense till 2017.

Well if Admiral saab take the thread seriously than its possible IN may order new type of Indigenous ship armed with Indigenous PAD system or import S-300F on new ships..

Btw, INS Vikramaditya will be armed with kasthan and Barak-2 Right?

 

[nrj]

Well if Admiral saab take the thread seriously than its possible IN may order new type of Indigenous ship armed with Indigenous PAD system or import S-300F on new ships..

Btw, INS Vikramaditya will be armed with kasthan and Barak-2 Right?

Maybe IN waiting for hypersonic PDV tests in coming months. It'll be better & long term solution.

Gorky supposed to have Kashtan or Barak or both, but I think it'll sport new Barak.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Maybe IN waiting for hypersonic PDV tests in coming months. It'll be better & long term solution.

Gorky supposed to have Kashtan or Barak or both, but I think it'll sport new Barak.

It will be better to have longer Barak-2,

AD layout will be same as Admiral Kuznetsov!
8x Kashtan
4x Barak-2 missile systems ( Each system of 8 missile, Total 32 missile ready to fire, +70km )

 

[StealthSniper]

It will be better to have longer Barak-2,

AD layout will be same as Admiral Kuznetsov!
8x Kashtan
4x Barak-2 missile systems ( Each system of 8 missile, Total 32 missile ready to fire, +70km )

I hope it has a good air defense system on the ship. I didn't think it was going to have armament like the Kuznetsov but that will be awesome if it did. I hope your right Kunal.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I hope it has a good air defense system on the ship. I didn't think it was going to have armament like the Kuznetsov but that will be awesome if it did. I hope your right Kunal.

I did bit more research on INS Vikramaditya, Specially recent construction pics and it made me to do some correction to my earlier post..
INS Vikramaditya is well armed, not much as Kuznetsov, but enough to defend her from Sub-Sonic Missiles..

This is speculation so its possible for more Barak complex..

A Good print of INS Vikramaditya!

 

[StealthSniper]

I did bit more research on INS Vikramaditya, Specially recent construction pics and it made me to do some correction to my earlier post..
INS Vikramaditya is well armed, not much as Kuznetsov, but enough to defend her from Sub-Sonic Missiles..

This is speculation so its possible for more Barak complex..

A Good print of INS Vikramaditya!

That's more like what I was thinking Kunal. As long as it has a decent air defence system, it doesn't need to be heavily armed like the Kuznetsov (which was meant to sail without support ships I believe). Russia loves to arm it's ships to the teeth but India will have adequate protection for INS Vikramaditya so it should be sufficent for them.

 

[AJSINGH]

i agree with russian navy philosophy of arming ships to the teeth ,well because those ships do not need any escort , hence reducing the risk of attack on 2 ships ,plus the operation costs will be low .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

i agree with russian navy philosophy of arming ships to the teeth ,well because those ships do not need any escort , hence reducing the risk of attack on 2 ships ,plus the operation costs will be low .

That's more like what I was thinking Kunal. As long as it has a decent air defence system, it doesn't need to be heavily armed like the Kuznetsov (which was meant to sail without support ships I believe). Russia loves to arm it's ships to the teeth but India will have adequate protection for INS Vikramaditya so it should be sufficent for them.

Kuznetsov belong to Brezhnev class, or the Kreml class, Where as Indian Vikramaditya belong to Kiev Class

Both structures are very different Kuznetsov is bigger than Kiev and can have more Aircrafts and weapons than Kiev, That is the main reason she is heavily armed![/B][/U], Unlike Western aircraft carriers which carry little organic armament, Admiral Kuznetsov has twelve launchers for SS-N-19 (Shipwreck) anti-ship surface-to-surface missiles. This surface-to-surface armament is required because the ship is an aircraft-carrying cruiser and it carries only fighter aircraft. For long-range air defense, the ship carries 24 vertical launchers for SA-N-9 (Gauntlet) surface-to-air missiles with 192 missiles..

Kuznetsov is very important to Russia as it is the flag ship and only Aircrat carrier/ heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser..

 

[neo29]

With china having anti ship missiles, ins vikramaditya is a sitting duck. any news that barak 8 will be fitted in the ins vikramaditya and is it good enough to counter the chinese anti ship missles ?

 

[AJSINGH]

I researched on the matter and it seems its true, Only 8 harriers wont make any significant impact on Andaman surroundings, Also Andamans will have SU-30 & Bisons in near future...
BUT Harriers can operate till 2023 therefore it can be a powerful close support/strike and AD Aircraft on INS Jalashwa, Also the Addition of Harriers can make Jalashwa ( in special circumstances) into a potential small carrier, Capable of launching aircrafts with Antiship with escorts to strike far away targets..


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active/167-INS-Jalashwa.html

true INS Jalashawa can be used as small AC, however if you know the term on which we bough INS jalasawa ,then USA prohibits the use of that naval vessel for combat purpose and in war time senario , even if we do ignore that , then Sea harriers wont be able to take any usefull load (such as a2a weapons ) . Harriers cannot lift any when it takes off vertically

 

[AJSINGH]

With china having anti ship missiles, ins vikramaditya is a sitting duck. any news that barak 8 will be fitted in the ins vikramaditya and is it good enough to counter the chinese anti ship missles ?

look just because china has anti ship ballistic missile that does not mean that our won AC is useless,if we extend your logic ,then yankees should have any AC of their own near china or near japan ,but they are not paranoid ,so why should we . The solution to this problem is integrating naval variant of s-400 or barak 8.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

With china having anti ship missiles, ins vikramaditya is a sitting duck. any news that barak 8 will be fitted in the ins vikramaditya and is it good enough to counter the chinese anti ship missles ?

If you are talking about regular sub-sonic sea skimming Anti-ship missiles than INS Vikramaditya is safe!
If you are talking about DF-21/CSS-5 than we have to wait for BMD ships!

Here`s a detailed pic of Vikramaditya`s AD layout, Now if Bark-2 +70km is fitted it will be gr8 if not still it have enough to protect her from Sub-soinc missiles

look just because china has anti ship ballistic missile that does not mean that our won AC is useless,if we extend your logic ,then yankees should have any AC of their own near china or near japan ,but they are not paranoid ,so why should we . The solution to this problem is integrating naval variant of s-400 or barak 8.

American are not concern because they already have ship based antisatalite killing system which can be modified for BMD use!
Barak-8 have no use against BM thread and only S-300 is available for export, India need to develop its own BMD ( Better than S-300 ) ship which wont be that difficult..

true INS Jalashawa can be used as small AC, however if you know the term on which we bough INS jalasawa ,then USA prohibits the use of that naval vessel for combat purpose and in war time senario , even if we do ignore that , then Sea harriers wont be able to take any usefull load (such as a2a weapons ) . Harriers cannot lift any when it takes off vertically

USA wont intervene as INS Jalashawa is based at Eastern fleet..
Secondly, Harriers can VTOL (Vertical Take-Off & Landing) with - 2268 kg (5000 lbs).
Hardpoints: 4× under-wing pylon stations holding up to 5,000 lb (2,268 kg) of payload
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Aviation/Aircraft/118-BAe-Sea-Harrier.html

 

[AJSINGH]

USA wont intervene as INS Jalashawa is based at Eastern fleet..
Secondly, Harriers can VTOL (Vertical Take-Off & Landing) with - 2268 kg (5000 lbs).
Hardpoints: 4× under-wing pylon stations holding up to 5,000 lb (2,268 kg) of payload
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Aviation/Aircraft/118-BAe-Sea-Harrier.html

look i know INS jalashawa is based on Eastern Fleet ,so i suggest you read this ( The purchase terms for the ship also resulted in controversy, with the Indian Comptroller and Auditor General organization censuring the Indian navy for a hasty purchase without exercising sufficient due diligence and for accepting restrictions on use and access. [13] According to the report, the United States obtained an assurance that the naval ship could not be used for any offensive purposes, and had the right to regularly inspect it. In addition, no physical assessment was done by India prior to purchase and the Navy reportedly hid necessity of upgrades and modifications from the relevant financial authorities.)

and if at at all Sea Harriers are operate from INS, then only one can be taken onboard, plus i also did some research about the deck size of the INS Jalashawa,its small for Sea Harriers plus no hanger for repairs .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

look i know INS jalashawa is based on Eastern Fleet ,so i suggest you read this ( According to the report, the United States obtained an assurance that the naval ship could not be used for any offensive purposes, and had the right to regularly inspect it. In addition, no physical assessment was done by India prior to purchase and the Navy reportedly hid necessity of upgrades and modifications from the relevant financial authorities.)

and if at at all Sea Harriers are operate from INS, then only one can be taken onboard, plus i also did some research about the deck size of the INS Jalashawa,its small for Sea Harriers plus no hanger for repairs .

1) INS Jalashawa will be not used as Offensive but Defense, Now Defense can also be call Counter offance..
2) I think that ship can hold 1 in the hanger and other 5 on the deck with the space provided for take off and landings a total of 6 aircraft..

Sea kings requires more space as their rotars expand during takeoffs, And in this pic u can count 6 Sea kings, a harrier with expanded wing take less space..

Westland Sea King
# Length: 55 ft 10 in[19] (17.02 m)
# Rotor diameter: 62 ft 0 in (18.90 m) ( Not Folded )
# Height: 16 ft 10 in (5.13 m)

BAE Sea Harrier
# Length: 46 ft 6 in (14.2 m)
# Wingspan: 25 ft 3 in (7.6 m) ( Not folded )
# Height: 12 ft 4 in (3.71 m)

Though its not a dedicated CV,The repair hanger for helo may use for Aircraft too..

 

[nandu]

Go For Gorshkov

June 3, 2010: An Indian inspection team has concluded that Russian efforts to refurbish the carrier Admiral Gorshkov, for Indian service, is on schedule. Nearly all the structural work is completed, and all the major mechanical items are installed. About half the cable (electrical and other conduits) work is complete. The Indian inspectors concluded that the ship should be ready for harbor trials by early next year. After that, the completed ship would be handed over to India in late 2012.

Earlier this year, after five years of confusion, accusations, stonewalling and renegotiation, India agreed to pay Russia an additional $1.3 billion to have the Gorshkov refurbished to Indian specifications. The original deal was the for getting it done for about a billion dollars. But once the Russians got to work, things got complicated, and out of control,

Indian naval officers have admitted that they were partially to blame for the Gorshkov fiasco. The Indians admit that, when they signed the deal in 2004, they had not had engineers go over the Gorshkov, and agreed, after a cursory inspection, that many electrical and mechanical components, buried within the ship's hull, were serviceable. It turned out that many of those components were not good-to-go, especially the cabling, and had to be replaced, at great expense. Shortly after the contract was signed, the Russians discovered that the shipyard had misplaced the blueprints for the Gorshkov, and things went downhill from there.

After four years of haggling over Russian demands for more money, India agreed to pay about a billion dollars more, instead of the original (2004) agreed on one billion dollars, for a Russian shipyard to refurbish an old, damaged, aircraft carrier (the Admiral Gorshkov) for Indian use. Last year, Russia threatened to give the Gorshkov back to the Russian Navy if the Indians didn't come up with even more money.

The 44,000 ton Gorshkov was supposed to have been delivered last year, and renamed the INS Vikramaditya. But now delivery has been delayed until 2012. The Russians admitted that this project suffered from inept planning, shoddy workmanship, and poor management, and they wanted India to pay for most of those mistakes. The Indians were not amused, and played hard ball, making much of the fact that India was now the biggest customer for Russian military exports. Russia was also aware that India was increasingly turning to more expensive (and more capable) Western arms suppliers.

Building a Gorshkov type carrier today would cost about $4 billion, and take eight years. India even looked into buying one of the new, 65,000 ton, British Queen Elizabeth class carriers (for about $6 billion). The Russians were willing to admit to mistakes and put things right, for a price. It took over a year of negotiations to determine what a mutually agreeable price would be. Meanwhile, the boss of Sevmash naval shipyard, when the Gorshkov deal was negotiated, was fired and under criminal investigation, on suspicion of financial mismanagement.

Back in 2005, the Indians were not happy with all this, and at first insisted that the Russian government (which owns many of the entities involved) make good on the original deal. India sent its own team of technical experts to Russia, and their report apparently confirmed what the Russians reported, about shipyard officials low-balling the cost of the work needed. This is a common tactic for firms building weapons for their own country. It gets more complicated when you try to pull that sort of thing on a foreign customer. The Russian government initially offered to cover some of the overrun cost. But then they insisted that India cover most of it, or lose the ship entirely. Nothing was said about whether or not the Indians would get any of their money refunded. As Indian anger rose, the Russians began to realize that they would have to eat most of the additional mistakes, or risk losing billions in future sales. There was also a battle within the Indian government, between factions that wanted to dump the deal and cut back on buying Russian weapons, and other factions that wanted to maintain the long ties with Russia, even if it cost India more money.

The Admiral Gorshkov entered service in 1987, but was inactivated in 1996 because it was too expensive to operate on a post Cold War budget. This attracted the attention of India, which was looking for a way to expand their carrier aviation capabilities. India is currently building another carrier, from scratch, but that 40,000 ton vessel won't be ready until 2015. India's sole current aircraft carrier, the 29,000 ton INS Viraat, just emerged from 18 months in a shipyard getting maintenance and upgrades. This work on the Viraat would have been avoided by the timely arrival (last year) of the refurbished Russian carrier. If that had happened, the INS Viraat would have been retired in 2012, after 53 years service (for Britain and India). But now the INS Viraat, with its engine and hull refurbished, and its electronics upgraded, will probably serve for another decade. Thus by 2015, India will have two large carriers in operation, and some bitter memories of their experience with the Russians over the Gorshkov.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnavai/articles/20100603.aspx

 

[AJSINGH]

1) INS Jalashawa will be not used as Offensive but Defense, Now Defense can also be call Counter offance..
2) I think that ship can hold 1 in the hanger and other 5 on the deck with the space provided for take off and landings a total of 6 aircraft..

Sea kings requires more space as their rotars expand during takeoffs, And in this pic u can count 6 Sea kings, a harrier with expanded wing take less space..

Westland Sea King
# Length: 55 ft 10 in[19] (17.02 m)
# Rotor diameter: 62 ft 0 in (18.90 m) ( Not Folded )
# Height: 16 ft 10 in (5.13 m)

BAE Sea Harrier
# Length: 46 ft 6 in (14.2 m)
# Wingspan: 25 ft 3 in (7.6 m) ( Not folded )
# Height: 12 ft 4 in (3.71 m)

Though its not a dedicated CV,The repair hanger for helo may use for Aircraft too..

what about the downdraft created by harrier ,it is much more than helicopter and also the minimum are required to land sea harrier is more what the deck of INS jalashawa can accomodatem,fi another harrier is also present

 

[Kunal Biswas]

what about the downdraft created by harrier ,it is much more than helicopter and also the minimum are required to land sea harrier is more what the deck of INS jalashawa can accomodatem,fi another harrier is also present

Indeed its true, as i also mentioned its not a dedicated CV, therefore 1 at a time ( either taking of or landing )..

 

[Crusader53]

look just because china has anti ship ballistic missile that does not mean that our won AC is useless,if we extend your logic ,then yankees should have any AC of their own near china or near japan ,but they are not paranoid ,so why should we . The solution to this problem is integrating naval variant of s-400 or barak 8.

Personally, I question the value of Anti-Ship Ballistic Missles. As no such missle has ever been designed to hit a "moving" target. Remember such a missile would strike directly from above in the vertical. Much different the from over the horizon like a sea skimming Anti- Ship Missle.

 

[Crusader53]

Indeed its true, as i also mentioned its not a dedicated CV, therefore 1 at a time ( either taking of or landing )..

Italy is planning on replacing the San Giorgio Class shortly. So, maybe India could pick up one or maybe all three. Likely very cheaply........Which, would be very useful until India has space to build its own.

 

[nrj]

Italy is planning on replacing the San Giorgio Class shortly. So, maybe India could pick up one or maybe all three. Likely very cheaply........Which, would be very useful until India has space to build its own.

India is already building ACs with foreign assistance. Soon it'll building completely on its own. India will build 5 carriers in coming time.