INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[Kunal Biswas]

Seems MIG-29K has done the needed to kick out breath of Harriers.
IN need another VTOL fighter.

IN and IAF are planning for making long Runways for Jets like SU-30, MIG-21( BISONS) & MIG-29K/LCA, Why we need VTOL aircrafts?

Viraat be de-commissioned by 2019. IN plans to keep Sea Harriers till 2013 but as carrier fleet. But the Andaman deployment can be done afterwords.
Also there is talk that IN might buy Royal Navy's 8 retired Harriers. But Andaman can see other new birds too like MIG-29k, NLCA etc making up IN's shore facility air-arm. IN has plans to acquire 300 fighters in near future.

IN will keep harriers till 2020, And Virat is getting retirement by 2015..
Though IAF will have Airbases to operate fighter jets, But thier will be no best place than Andamans for harriers in near future, Btw IAF is thinking abt SU-30MKIs at Andamans..

Those Harriers are too old to serve anywhere except the junk yard.

Its not that old as u think they are, Engines for Indian Sea Harriers were supplied by Rolls Royce while the aircraft have been maintained and upgraded - as prime contractor - by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

 

[bhramos]

Even recently Harrier's have been Upgraded by Israeli Avionics, may 2-3 yrs ago, if we retire them that soon, the will be gone to Junkyard.
noting wrong in maintaing them, until they become flying cofins.

 

[nrj]

IN and IAF are planning for making long Runways for Jets like SU-30, MIG-21( BISONS) & MIG-29K/LCA, Why we need VTOL aircrafts?

Well, I'm not aware if Andaman/Nicobar fields are included in 'Airfields Modernization' program. Will look on that.
But even without long runways Mig-29K & NLCA having short take-off & Landing capability can serve from these smaller runways IMO.

Operating MKIs & Bisons will need longer runways of course.

I think we need VTOL fighters so to supplement carriers with larger number of fighters.

IN will keep harriers till 2020, And Virat is getting retirement by 2015..
Though IAF will have Airbases to operate fighter jets, But thier will be no best place than Andamans for harriers in near future, Btw IAF is thinking abt SU-30MKIs at Andamans..

Oh I'm sorry Harriers to stay till 2023 (by mistake typed 2013). Viraat will stay till 2019 without problem since it recently got refurbishment IMO.
MKIs at Andaman will be good move. Especially new MKIs with anti-ship Brahmos will keep any potential enemy out of IN perimeter.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Even recently Harrier's have been Upgraded by Israeli Avionics, may 2-3 yrs ago, if we retire them that soon, the will be gone to Junkyard.
noting wrong in maintaing them, until they become flying cofins.

@Bhramos,
Unlike Migs, Harriers have better spare-parts and continually maintained by HAL, Published reports indicate that India has 22 Sea Harriers and all are airworthy till 2020..

 

[AJSINGH]

@Bhramos,
Published reports indicate that India has 22 Sea Harriers and all are airworthy till 2020..

we have only 8 and out of them 5 are air worthy

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Well, I'm not aware if Andaman/Nicobar fields are included in 'Airfields Modernization' program. Will look on that.

.

India's plans to develop andaman as Major Military Base
To counter the growing Chinese influence in the Indian Ocean, the Indian government has planned to turn the Andaman and Nicobar islands into a formidable military cantonment replete with Indian air force and navy bases.

As per a meticulous master-plan, also in possession of Headlines Today, the proposed tri-service Andaman & Nicobar command will be put into action by the end of 2009.

If everything goes by plan, these paradise islands could be India's most formidable military outpost in a decade. By 2020, the magnificent coral islands will see:

* A nuclear submarine base in south Andaman
* A permanent Sukhoi-30 base at Car Nicobar
* A permanent tactical aerial recon base at Campbell Bay
* A permanent aircraft carrier base
* Expansion of INS Kardip advance naval base in Nicobar


A dedicated 250MW nuclear power station on the islands is also proposed to come up on the islands. The facility will feed the enormous power requirements that the ambitious island militarization programme will ultimately demand.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

we have only 8 and out of them 5 are air worthy

IN601 - Mk.51 (05 Oct 1984) - air accident on 04 May 1988
...................................IN602 - Mk.51 (12 July 1984)
...................................IN603 - Mk.51 (13 Dec 1983)
...................................IN604 - Mk.51 (13 Dec 1983)
...................................IN605 - Mk.51 (13 Dec 1983)
...................................IN606 - Mk.51 (12 July 1984)
...................................IN607 - Mk.51 (24 July 1990)
...................................IN608 - Mk.51 (14 Dec 1989)
...................................IN609 - Mk.51 (10 Apr 1990)
...................................IN610 - Mk.51 (14 Dec 1989)
...................................IN611 - Mk.51 (14 Dec 1989) - air accident on 30 September 1997
...................................IN612 - Mk.51 (10 Apr 1990) - air accident on 09 December 1992
...................................IN613 - Mk.51 (24 July 1990)
...................................IN614 - Mk.51 (24 July 1990)
...................................IN615 - Mk.51 (23 Apr 1991)
...................................IN616 - Mk.51 (17 Sept 1991)
...................................IN617 - Mk.51 (17 Sept 1991)
...................................IN618 - Mk.51 (23 Apr 1991)
...................................IN619 - Mk.51 (23 Apr 1991) - air accident on 09 June 1992
...................................IN620 - Mk.51 (17 Sept 1991) - air accident on 08 February 1996
...................................IN621 - Mk.51 (17 Sept 1991) - beyond economical repair
...................................IN622 - Mk.51 (14 Jan 1992)
...................................IN623 - Mk.51 (07 Apr 1992)
...................................IN651 - T Mk.60 (15 Mar 1984)
...................................IN652 - T Mk.60 (16 Mar 1984) - air accident on 27 June 1988
...................................IN653 - T Mk.60 (10 Apr 1990)
...................................IN654 - T Mk.60 (14 Jan 1992)
...................................IN655 - T Mk.60 (2003) - T Mk.4(I) upgraded to T Mk.60 standard
...................................IN656 - T Mk.60 (2003) - T Mk.4(I) upgraded to T Mk.60 standard

I am counting at least 20+ Harriers, Also all of them are updated by Rafael Armament Development with the Derby BVRAAM & e Elta EL/M-2032 radars..

A formal contract, worth $25 million, was signed with the Rafael Armament Development Authority in February 2005 for the Derby BVRAAM and includes an initial batch of 20 missiles and six training rounds. Under the proposed contract, officials from Rafael will be stationed at the Sea Harrier base in Goa to train Navy personnel on the operation & maintenance of the missiles and will also supply trolleys and racks to load & handle the missiles. Delivery of the missiles are expected to begin 30 months after the signing of the contract and will be completed within one year thereafter.

 

[AJSINGH]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Naval_Air_Arm#Aircraft

check that , it says only 8 in service

 

[AJSINGH]

IN601 - Mk.51 (05 Oct 1984) - air accident on 04 May 1988
...................................IN602 - Mk.51 (12 July 1984)
...................................IN603 - Mk.51 (13 Dec 1983)
...................................IN604 - Mk.51 (13 Dec 1983)
...................................IN605 - Mk.51 (13 Dec 1983)
...................................IN606 - Mk.51 (12 July 1984)
...................................IN607 - Mk.51 (24 July 1990)
...................................IN608 - Mk.51 (14 Dec 1989)
...................................IN609 - Mk.51 (10 Apr 1990)
...................................IN610 - Mk.51 (14 Dec 1989)
...................................IN611 - Mk.51 (14 Dec 1989) - air accident on 30 September 1997
...................................IN612 - Mk.51 (10 Apr 1990) - air accident on 09 December 1992
...................................IN613 - Mk.51 (24 July 1990)
...................................IN614 - Mk.51 (24 July 1990)
...................................IN615 - Mk.51 (23 Apr 1991)
...................................IN616 - Mk.51 (17 Sept 1991)
...................................IN617 - Mk.51 (17 Sept 1991)
...................................IN618 - Mk.51 (23 Apr 1991)
...................................IN619 - Mk.51 (23 Apr 1991) - air accident on 09 June 1992
...................................IN620 - Mk.51 (17 Sept 1991) - air accident on 08 February 1996
...................................IN621 - Mk.51 (17 Sept 1991) - beyond economical repair
...................................IN622 - Mk.51 (14 Jan 1992)
...................................IN623 - Mk.51 (07 Apr 1992)
...................................IN651 - T Mk.60 (15 Mar 1984)
...................................IN652 - T Mk.60 (16 Mar 1984) - air accident on 27 June 1988
...................................IN653 - T Mk.60 (10 Apr 1990)
...................................IN654 - T Mk.60 (14 Jan 1992)
...................................IN655 - T Mk.60 (2003) - T Mk.4(I) upgraded to T Mk.60 standard
...................................IN656 - T Mk.60 (2003) - T Mk.4(I) upgraded to T Mk.60 standard

I am counting at least 20+ Harriers, Also all of them are updated by Rafael Armament Development with the Derby BVRAAM & e Elta EL/M-2032 radars..

India's Sea Harrier Mk51s are old aircraft, predating the AV-8B+ Harrier IIs currently flown by the US Marines and Italian Navy, and their British GR7/GR9 or Spanish EA-8B counterparts. The V/STOL Sea Harrier fighters were inducted in 1983, with 25 used for operational flying and the remaining 5 as trainers. The current fleet reportedly stands at 13 as of December 2007, due to 17 crashes over the aircrafts' service lifetime (a known hazard for Harriers). With only 13 aircraft on hand, cycling aircraft in for lengthy upgrades without disrupting already-low fleet numbers becomes a challenge.

The current upgrade program will involve new IAI Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode fire control radars, RAFAEL's Derby short-medium range air-air missiles, plus combat maneuvering flight recorders and digital cockpit voice recorders.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Indias-Sea-Harrier-Shortage-04774/

 

[Kunal Biswas]

check that , it says only 8 in service

I researched on the matter and it seems its true, Only 8 harriers wont make any significant impact on Andaman surroundings, Also Andamans will have SU-30 & Bisons in near future...
BUT Harriers can operate till 2023 therefore it can be a powerful close support/strike and AD Aircraft on INS Jalashwa, Also the Addition of Harriers can make Jalashwa ( in special circumstances) into a potential small carrier, Capable of launching aircrafts with Antiship with escorts to strike far away targets..

his deck can also be used to operate vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) aircraft like the Sea Harrier

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active/167-INS-Jalashwa.html

 

[IBRIS]

surroundings, Also Andamans will have SU-30 & Bisons in near future...]

Andaman and Nicobar already has Su-30MKI and Bison's.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Andaman and Nicobar already has Su-30MKI and Bison's.

Strange coz i didnt saw any article on it!
If u have any Article on it pls share..

 

[SATISH]

Strange coz i didnt saw any article on it!
If u have any Article on it pls share..

Sir I still have doubts about it as during tsunami there was a squadron of Su 30s stationed there. and a IL 76 in Car Nicobar. And I am sure of it. I dont know if it belongs to the SFC or the IAF.

 

[AJSINGH]

Strange coz i didnt saw any article on it!
If u have any Article on it pls share..

SU30Mki were not permanently based on Andaman ,but used to visit temporarily , like 2 Su30Mki on 1 month visit

 

[nandu]

China's anti-ship missiles may make India's 2012 Gorshkov aircraft carrier unusable in war

07:36 GMT, June 2, 2010 | Indian Navy has expressed delight at the Sevmash Shipyard's progress in refurbishment of Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier towards a delivery in 2012. Unfortunately, being ignored is China's rapid development of its anti-ship (read aircraft carrier) ballistic missile program. In March 2010 Wired reported a US Admiral Robert Willard, the head of U.S. Pacific Command (PACOM) told legislators that China was "developing and testing a conventional anti-ship ballistic missile based on the DF-21/CSS-5 [medium-range ballistic missile] designed specifically to target aircraft carriers." The report further noted that since its development in 1990s, it is now at a testing stage. Due to the advanced technology in the missile even the U.S. may not have the technology to defend its carriers against such a strike, effectively meaning that aircraft carriers would be sitting ducks.

This view was backed up by US Defence Secretary Robert Gates who in Apr 2010 confirmed that China's heavy investment in anti-ship capabilities will make aircraft carriers obsolete. Adding to the woes is the proliferation in Asian waters of Air-Independent Propulsion submarines as reported by Strategy Page.

Back in India, the optimism in the Navy's stance is visible after the return of a team led by controller of warship production and acquisitions Vice Admiral N.N. Kumar, which had gone to Russia to inspect the progress of work carried out on the much delayed aircraft carrier in May this year.

"The pace of work has picked up significantly in the last six months. This can be attributed to the additional deployment of manpower in refurbishment of the aircraft carrier," navy spokesperson Commander Satish told 8ak. Adding further he said, "An apex level committee has also been constituted between India and Russia at the highest levels to monitor the progress of work on the Gorshkov aircraft carrier rechristened INS Vikramaditya."

A top naval officer told 8ak, "The additional deployment of manpower is due to the urgency of India to induct the aircraft carrier in its fleet, as India has been left without an operational carrier after the grounding of its ageing fleet of Sea Harrier aircrafts, which operated from INS Viraat and the recently inducted MiG-29K by the navy from Russia cannot be used from Viraat platform, hence pushing India into a unique position of having a carrier without operational aircrafts and aircrafts which are not compatible with the carrier we have, even the under production indigenous carrier has been delayed."

Times of India reports a naval officer saying, "There has been substantial progress since the last examination in September 2009. Around 99% of the structural work and almost 50% of the cabling work has been completed on the carrier. Almost all large equipment, like engines, diesel generators and the like, has been installed."

Admiral Gorshkov had become a bane in the relationship of India and Russia, as the latter asked an additional US$1.5 billion for refurbishment of the carrier from the original price of US$974 million. The hike in price was due to the Russians underestimating the quantum of work required to refurbish the carrier, which was phased out from the Russian navy after it caught fire. The issue was settled this year after several rounds of tough negotiations, which saw the price being fixed at US$2.3 billion. The upgrade on the carrier will make it sea worthy for another three decades.

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/15662/

 

[AJSINGH]

China's anti-ship missiles may make India's 2012 Gorshkov aircraft carrier unusable in war

not unusable but need for better tactics on how to use the AC

 

[nrj]

Sadly INS Vikramaditya will not have CIWS till 2017. First Indian refit will incorporate CIWS after 2017 only. Its worrisome.
Ships area defense be compromised & will need constant escorts IMO.

 

[IBRIS]

Strange coz i didnt saw any article on it!
If u have any Article on it pls share..

After the 26 December 2005 tsunami tragedy, two Sukhoi-30s and four Jaguars, flown in from the mainland, IAF proved the base was combat-worthy once again. Air Force Chief, Air Chief Marshal Shashi Tyagi, said it was a "remarkable effort".

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sadly INS Vikramaditya will not have CIWS till 2017. First Indian refit will incorporate CIWS after 2017 only. Its worrisome.
Ships area defense be compromised & will need constant escorts IMO.

The US Department of Defense has stated that China is developing a conventionally-armed high hypersonic land-based anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) based on the DF-21, with a range of up to 3,000 kilometres (1,900 mi). This would be the world's first and only ASBM and the world's first weapons system capable of targeting a moving aircraft carrier strike group from long-range, land-based mobile launchers.[9][10] These would combine manoeuvrable reentry vehicles (MaRVs) with some kind of terminal guidance system.
It appears to be a land-based version of the JL-1 missile launched from submarines.

As the article said its based on a the DF-21/CSS-5 [medium-range ballistic missile] that's mean its trajectory may come from above not sea skimming, therefore the countermeasure is to have a new kinds of BMD ship ( S-300/ PAD armed ship ) to counter any MARVs from space, CISW and have no use against hypersonic missle coming from above..

Their are Russian Naval BMD system available called S-300F (SA-N-6) installation and on a Kara class cruiser and it is also installed on Slava class cruisers and Kirov class battlecruisers,
The export version of this system is known as Rif (Russian Риф — reef).

 

[nrj]

As the article said its based on a the DF-21/CSS-5 [medium-range ballistic missile] that's mean its trajectory may come from above not sea skimming, therefore the countermeasure is to have a new kinds of BMD ship ( S-300/ PAD armed ship ) to counter any MARVs from space, CISW and have no use against hypersonic missle coming from above..

Their are Russian Naval BMD system available called S-300F (SA-N-6) installation and on a Kara class cruiser and it is also installed on Slava class cruisers and Kirov class battlecruisers,
The export version of this system is known as Rif (Russian Риф — reef).

Interesting, can IN get such PAD armed ships any soon? Its must for future planning. But still basic CIWS is expected on any AC, we won't have basic area defense till 2017.