Indian Special Forces

[Scramjet]

Ya'll Nibbiars still I am not in one of them.

Ya'll are one and only ya'll nibbiars

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll are one and only ya'll nibbiars

Ya'll Nibbiars that means I am the only one sane person here?. What the?.

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars

 

[Yodha]

To anyone reading this post and following this thread for quiet long...

1. Indian special forces are professional. Their training is tougher than regular forces. They are the ones that actually do stand between the terrorists in Kashmir and regular forces along with RR. Largely they are used for COIN Ops and what do you think that does to their mindset vis a vis training and equipment.

2. They do train themselves for the purpose and task at hand by themselves. All the clamouring about killhouses, c clamp grip, trigger disciplines are pointless because largely the SF has not been trained by another SF. You'd notice some state special police units using Israeli tactics because they were trained and they incorporated them because of that training.

3. Equipment is a let down. When initially the para regiment was raised, they were trained for para jumps and behind the enemy line ops. Our SF is still used as a hard kill security force rather than strategic assets. They don't work on the ideas which can be implemented to turn overall balance in a war. I quote the ODA 595 here because if you'd read about them, that team was trained to operate in ME. The team members studied and continuously collected information of the terrain, enemy, geographics, political situation of Afghanistan before deployment. They have specialists who get trained for 2 to 2.5 years(almost same for Navy seals, Deltas and Rangers)

4. STOP COMPARING. It won't get us anywhere because the PURPOSE is different for us and any other country. Brunei might have a Gucci equipped specialised force because someone had given a thought about the need for such equipment. We are catching up but at a slow pace. Things will change.

5. Most importantly none of you ever mentioned AVIATION ASSETS for special forces. CFF from C 130s or An 32s or ALHs is all the exposure for our SFs. On the contrary SFs all over the world have dedicated aviation assets that specialise in operating with them. Night flying, low flying, electronic warfare are things that we don't even discuss about. THINK ABOUT IT, AN SF THAT CANT MOVE OUT OF OUR BORDERS TO CONDUCT AN OP BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE AVIATION ASSETS TO TAKE THEM TO THE PLACE.

So please stop it. Voicing displeasure is different from screaming about lack of goodies. Most of you always try to conclude the capabilities based on pictures. You need to review your opinions before voicing them. I'm just saying, we'll catch up and it'll be a long time before we do but certainly will.

 

[Scramjet]

Ya'll Nibbiars

View attachment 102810

Lemme guess, it's a copy paste book written by some chhapri, there'll be one climax chapter copied off elitepredator's blog, rest from wiki with citations.

 

[Haldilal]

Lemme guess, it's a copy paste book written by some chhapri, there'll be one climax chapter copied off elitepredator's blog, rest from wiki with citations.

Ya'll Nibbiars that book is written by one and only @abingdonboy Nibba.

 

[abingdonboy]

To anyone reading this post and following this thread for quiet long...

1. Indian special forces are professional. Their training is tougher than regular forces. They are the ones that actually do stand between the terrorists in Kashmir and regular forces along with RR. Largely they are used for COIN Ops and what do you think that does to their mindset vis a vis training and equipment.

2. They do train themselves for the purpose and task at hand by themselves. All the clamouring about killhouses, c clamp grip, trigger disciplines are pointless because largely the SF has not been trained by another SF. You'd notice some state special police units using Israeli tactics because they were trained and they incorporated them because of that training.

3. Equipment is a let down. When initially the para regiment was raised, they were trained for para jumps and behind the enemy line ops. Our SF is still used as a hard kill security force rather than strategic assets. They don't work on the ideas which can be implemented to turn over all balance in a war. I quote the ODA 595 here because if you'd read about them, that team was trained to operate in ME. The team members studied and continuously collected information of the terrain, enemy, geographics, political situation of Afghanistan before deployment. They have specialists who get trained for 2 to 2.5 years(almost same for Navy seals, Deltas and Rangers)

4. STOP COMPARING. It won't get us anywhere because the PURPOSE is different for us and any other country. Brunei might have a Gucci equipped specialised force because someone had given a thought about the need for such equipment. We are catching up but at a slow pace. Things will change.

5. Most importantly none of you ever mentioned AVIATION ASSETS for special forces. CFF from C 130s or An 32s or ALHs is all the exposure for our SFs. On the contrary SFs all over the world have dedicated aviation assets that specialise in operating with them. Night flying, low flying, electronic warfare are things that we don't even discuss about. THINK ABOUT IT, AN SF THAT CANT MOVE OUT OF OUR BORDERS TO CONDUCT AN OP BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE AVIATION ASSETS TO TAKE THEM TO THE PLACE.

So please stop it. Voicing displeasure is different from screaming about lack of goodies. Most of you always try to conclude the capabilities based on pictures. You need to review your opinions before voicing them. I'm just saying, we'll catch up and it'll be a long time before we do but certainly will.

The definitive assessment of Indian SOFs and it should be pinned to page 1 of this thread.


however I don’t agree with the last line/sentiment. The conditions that have led to the failings of Indian SFs will linger and lead to the same outcome for the foreseeable future unless there is a quantum change in thinking at the very very top in how they view strategic assets- no sign that’s happening so it will continue to be the same stuff just on a different day.

their current status is basically enshrined- truly exceptional infantrymen.

 

[Fire and groove]

To anyone reading this post and following this thread for quiet long...

1. Indian special forces are professional. Their training is tougher than regular forces. They are the ones that actually do stand between the terrorists in Kashmir and regular forces along with RR. Largely they are used for COIN Ops and what do you think that does to their mindset vis a vis training and equipment.

2. They do train themselves for the purpose and task at hand by themselves. All the clamouring about killhouses, c clamp grip, trigger disciplines are pointless because largely the SF has not been trained by another SF. You'd notice some state special police units using Israeli tactics because they were trained and they incorporated them because of that training.

3. Equipment is a let down. When initially the para regiment was raised, they were trained for para jumps and behind the enemy line ops. Our SF is still used as a hard kill security force rather than strategic assets. They don't work on the ideas which can be implemented to turn overall balance in a war. I quote the ODA 595 here because if you'd read about them, that team was trained to operate in ME. The team members studied and continuously collected information of the terrain, enemy, geographics, political situation of Afghanistan before deployment. They have specialists who get trained for 2 to 2.5 years(almost same for Navy seals, Deltas and Rangers)

4. STOP COMPARING. It won't get us anywhere because the PURPOSE is different for us and any other country. Brunei might have a Gucci equipped specialised force because someone had given a thought about the need for such equipment. We are catching up but at a slow pace. Things will change.

5. Most importantly none of you ever mentioned AVIATION ASSETS for special forces. CFF from C 130s or An 32s or ALHs is all the exposure for our SFs. On the contrary SFs all over the world have dedicated aviation assets that specialise in operating with them. Night flying, low flying, electronic warfare are things that we don't even discuss about. THINK ABOUT IT, AN SF THAT CANT MOVE OUT OF OUR BORDERS TO CONDUCT AN OP BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE AVIATION ASSETS TO TAKE THEM TO THE PLACE.

So please stop it. Voicing displeasure is different from screaming about lack of goodies. Most of you always try to conclude the capabilities based on pictures. You need to review your opinions before voicing them. I'm just saying, we'll catch up and it'll be a long time before we do but certainly will.

I think I might have mentioned aviation assets a long while back, in that regard I wish the military would procure some V-22 ospreys for the SF along with some C-130s. I usually lump it in as part of the support element.

 

[Yodha]

I think I might have mentioned aviation assets a long while back, in that regard I wish the military would procure some V-22 ospreys for the SF along with some C-130s. I usually lump it in as part of the support element.

Certainly V 22 is not the best for such operations. Why do you think SOAR doesn't use V 22s? Chinooks and pave hawks are their prime movers. Think about it. Ever heard the sound of a Chinook on its finals to a helipad? I was 200 meters away and it definitely makes lesser audible noise than a chetak or cheetah.

 

[Yodha]

The definitive assessment of Indian SOFs and it should be pinned to page 1 of this thread.


however I don’t agree with the last line/sentiment. The conditions that have led to the failings of Indian SFs will linger and lead to the same outcome for the foreseeable future unless there is a quantum change in thinking at the very very top in how they view strategic assets- no sign that’s happening so it will continue to be the same stuff just on a different day.

their current status is basically enshrined- truly exceptional infantrymen.

A quantum change in a force with 20 or something battalions? Never going to happen. I red somewhere " If you want to make something special, you have to believe that you are making something special ".

Either we reduce the strength and make them into a dedicated force which can be used just not to kill but enforce our plans and make shifting changes in battlefield. Or restructure the existing battalions for purported tasks. Airborne should be separated from SF battalions. I'm not against airborne but a chunk of money and concentration is taken away by those units and SF units are facing the brunt. Seperate them and fund them seperately and train them seperately.

 

[abingdonboy]

Certainly V 22 is not the best for such operations. Why do you think SOAR doesn't used V 22s? Chinooks and pave hawks are their prime movers. Think about it. Ever heard the sound of a Chinook on its finals to a helipad? I was 200 meters away and it definitely makes lesser audible noise than a chetak or cheetah.

It’s more complicated than that. 160th SOAR is the US army special missions aviation unit and hence they basically have to use whatever is used by US army aviation- US army doesn’t use v-22 so SOAR doesn’t either

On the other hand the special operations squadrons of USAF does use CV-22, similarly USMC special missions aviation elements make use of the MV-22.

they have so much depth that they can afford to have vast diversity and extreme specialisation.

The lack of Specialist aviation equipment for Indian SFs has been discussed here but again it doesn’t change until SFs as recognised are strategic assets.

 

[abingdonboy]

A quantum change in a force with 20 or something battalions? Never going to happen. I red somewhere " If you want to make something special, you have to believe that you are making something special ".

Either we reduce the strength and make them into a dedicated force which can be used just not to kill but enforce our plans and make shifting changes in battlefield. Or restructure the existing battalions for purported tasks. Airborne should be separated from SF battalions. I'm not against airborne but a chunk of money and concentration is taken away by those units and SF units are facing the brunt. Seperate them and fund them seperately and train them seperately.

Don’t disagree with any of this.

I have said before that if INSOCOM ever comes to be (BIG if) the Indian army will have to create a SF regiment and divorce the airborne battalions from the SF ones.

the IN has a special operations command but MARCOs are arguably over staffed too considering the kind of missions they are regularly tasked with- the Indian navy would first have to create their own marine infantry to take away some of the roles MARCOs are forced to deal with today.

all huge structural reforms that would first need to have executive level buy in- doubt they even care/know today.

Protecting the status quo is much more Indian

 

[Yodha]

It’s more complicated than that. 160th SOAR is the US army special missions aviation unit and hence they basically have to use whatever is used by US army aviation- US army doesn’t use v-22 so SOAR doesn’t either

No. US army is not begging. They get what they want. They still fund a program in search of an aircraft that can move special forces and V 22 is a no go for them. That's why they are trying to get the Willy Coyote.

On the other hand the special operations squadrons of USAF does use CV-22, similarly USMC special missions aviation elements make use of the MV-22.

MARSOC Raiders don't use V 22s. The Navy is replacing the Greyhound with V 22 for carriers. Head over to warzone blog and read an article "Why army special aviation units are mostly used by special forces"(close to the same bame AFAIK). USAF units do use them to lift JTACs and Medevacs.

they have so much depth that they can afford to have vast diversity and extreme specialisation.

Are you talking about V22s? Of course they are wonderful machines. No doubt about it. A combination of vertical lift and fast movers placed in between Helos and fixedwing transporters. But it makes huge noise. It takes time for it to convert from vertical lift configuration to fixed wing configuration. It's crucial when you have to get your men back who are operting in enemies land.

The lack of Specialist aviation equipment for Indian SFs has been discussed here but again it doesn’t change until SFs are recognised are strategic assets.

It won't. The 301 sqn of Indian army is supposed to have 2 flights. It only has one with ALH mk III. Where's the other one? Try to find out.

 

[Fire and groove]

Certainly V 22 is not the best for such operations. Why do you think SOAR doesn't use V 22s? Chinooks and pave hawks are their prime movers. Think about it. Ever heard the sound of a Chinook on its finals to a helipad? I was 200 meters away and it definitely makes lesser audible noise than a chetak or cheetah.

Yeah, but their advantages simply can't be glossed over. It's speed and range makes it very useful for a quick infil and exfil.

 

[Yodha]

Don’t disagree with any of this.

I have said before that if INSOCOM ever comes to be (BIG if) the Indian army will have to create a SF regiment and divorce the airborne battalions from the SF ones.

the IN has a special operations command but MARCOs are arguably over staffed too considering the kind of missions they are regularly tasked with- the Indian navy would first have to create their own marine infantry to take away some of the roles MARCOs are forced to deal with today.

all huge structural reforms that would first need to have executive level buy in- doubt they even care/know today.

Protecting the status quo is much more Indian

If theatre commands ever see the daylight, each one should have its own special forces division and all of them should be collectively headed by INSOCOM. That should give them adequate air assets pulled from army, airforce and navy together. Each divison under dedicated theatre command should be assigned a region to study and work on it. Their operators should have extensive knowledge about their AOR. Their aviators should know the skies they are to fly. Their funding should be independent.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Yeah, but their advantages simply can't be glossed over. It's speed and range makes it very useful for a quick infil and exfil.

Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2015, the Indian Aviation Research Centre showed interest in acquiring four V-22s for personnel evacuation in hostile conditions, logistic supplies, and deployment of the Special Frontier Force in border areas. US V-22s performed relief operations after the April 2015 Nepal earthquake.[205] The Indian Navy also studied the V-22 rather than the E-2D for airborne early warning and control to replace the short-range Kamov Ka-31.[206] India is interested in purchasing six attack version V-22s for rapid troop insertion in border areas.[207][208]

it's unit cost is not even remotely restrictive for our budget
IF we buy them, the aviation capability of Para can be enormously bolstered

 

[Yodha]

Yeah, but their advantages simply can't be glossed over. It's speed and range makes it very useful for a quick infil and exfil.

Again, you seem to read between the lines. Watch a black hawk taking off and approaching the helipad. Watch a V22 lifting vertically up and converting and when it is approaching the helipad. Bigger aircraft can become good targets. Again, you are venturing into enemy territory. You don't know where a proper helipad is. Even if you select a designated place for an LZ, you don't know the surface of it. Think of a V22s nose landing oleo leg getting stuck in mud immediately after landing. What will you do. Will you keep digging or will you just try to pick it up and get into a dynamic rollover?

Why do you think 160th have pavehawks and Chinooks with refuelling probes? They can easily make that range with a V22. There is a reason.

 

[abingdonboy]

No. US army is not begging. They get what they want. They still fund a program in search of an aircraft that can move special forces and V 22 is a no go for them. That's why they are trying to get the Willy Coyote.



MARSOC Raiders don't use V 22s. The Navy is replacing the Greyhound with V 22 for carriers. Head over to warzone blog and read an article "Why army special aviation units are mostly used by special forces"(close to the same bame AFAIK). USAF units do use them to lift JTACs and Medevacs.



Are you talking about V22s? Of course they are wonderful machines. No doubt about it. A combination of vertical lift and fast movers placed in between Helos and fixedwing transporters. But it makes huge noise. It takes time for it to convert from vertical lift configuration to fixed wing configuration. It's crucial when you have to get your men back in enemies land.



It won't. The 301 sqn of Indian army is supposed to have 2 flights. It only has one with ALH mk III. Where's the other one? Try to find out.

The way USSOCOM is structured/operates leads to the SOAR-Chinook/Black Hawk utilisation.

the SOAR is used for pre-planned/in-theatre mission support where they can pre-position themselves


when USAF F-15s we’re shot down in Libya it was a MV-22 with Marine raiders that went in ( from a LHD iirc) to recover the crew. CV-22s are deployed to the U.K. to cover special missions support for all of Europe

Anyway this is getting into the weeds and platform vs platform analysis is neither here nor there when it comes to Indian SOFs. We aren’t the ones that will write the requirements- let them first be written then they’ll find whatever works for them. Probably a highly modified IMRH will be suitable for 90% of the missions they need but will such a requirement ever exist is the issue?

The top-down picture needs to change before it’s even worth weighing up V-22 or CH-47

As of today super infantry is the mandate for Indian SFs, unless they are treated on par with nuclear weapons and a process lead by PMO is enforced it’s more of the same for the foreseeable future

 

[abingdonboy]

Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2015, the Indian Aviation Research Centre showed interest in acquiring four V-22s for personnel evacuation in hostile conditions, logistic supplies, and deployment of the Special Frontier Force in border areas. US V-22s performed relief operations after the April 2015 Nepal earthquake.[205] The Indian Navy also studied the V-22 rather than the E-2D for airborne early warning and control to replace the short-range Kamov Ka-31.[206] India is interested in purchasing six attack version V-22s for rapid troop insertion in border areas.[207][208]

it's unit cost is not even remotely restrictive for our budget
IF we buy them, the aviation capability of Para can be enormously bolstered

ARC/SG isn’t part of this discussion.

 

[Yodha]

The way USSOCOM is structured/operates leads to the SOAR-Chinook/Black Hawk utilisation.

the SOAR is used for pre-planned/in-theatre mission support where they can pre-position themselves


when USAF F-15s we’re shot down in Libya it was a MV-22 with Marine raiders that went in ( from a LHD iirc) to recover the crew. CV-22s are deployed to the U.K. to cover special missions support for all of Europe

Anyway this is getting into the weeds and platform vs platform analysis is neither here nor there when it comes to Indian SOFs. We aren’t the ones that will write the requirements- let them first be written then they’ll find whatever works for them. Probably a highly modified IMRH will be suitable for 90% of the missions they need but will such a requirement ever exist is the issue?

The top-down picture needs to change before it’s even worth weighing up V-22 or CH-47

As of today super infantry is the mandate for Indian SFs, unless they are treated on par with nuclear weapons and a process lead by PMO is enforced it’s more of the same for the foreseeable future

Of course we were talking off topic. But CV 22 taking off from an LHD with Marines? Screams NAVY all over it. It isn't SOCOM. Most SOAR assets operate from inland.

Do we have such tasks at our hand where we need to go overseas to save one our pilots? If we ever had a special aviation unit, we would have had the chance of them performing during Wg Cdr Abhinandans saga. They would have carried out a CSAR mission to prove their worth.