Indian Special Forces

[Aditya Roy]

Punjab Police clearly written, le Insta fan boys get happy.

Are you sure? that too without any Jatt pride background score?

 

[rkhanna]

That was a sniper with night vision he shot SSGN to kingdomcon.we would be also facing gizmo terrorists after fall of afghan

SSGN should not be mentioned on a Military forum. They are the worst of the worst.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Noob question....
These guys are civilian instructors?
Room intervention done by JKP SOG(probably)
I know it's a police thread thing
Just want to compare it to NSG room intervention shown in the RSTV documentary
The NSG one looked cool, seemless, and really quick

This one seems "slow", for lack of a better word
Also the shoulder transition in first few seconds(doesn't count as much though)

They should really be more careful about pointing loaded weapons towards other comrades, In US forces you can literally be thrown out of the program if you keep repeating the offence.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

SSGN should not be mentioned on a Military forum. They are the worst of the worst.

Pakistan is standing on 2 pillars..ISI and SSG.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

How do you assess the performance of Garuds at Pathankot?

The only way we could have come to know their complete performance level was to let them neutralise the terrorists once they were cornered in the secluded wooded perimeter of the base. Failure to neutralise the terrorists is the collective blame of higher ups, DSC, Air Force Police and Garuds. IMO they did an okayish job with the equipment they had in cornering the terrorists from the main parts and residential parts of the base and avoiding damage to any major assests. They should have been the ones to finish of the job . Only then we could completely judge them. Now we have no major clue of how they’d function in such a situation since NSG did the job again which isn’t really their job too.

 

[abingdonboy]

So is it safe for me to say in this thread that the primary task for which Garuds were made have been failed by them on a primary forward base where this was expected?

(wouldnt be so critical if Tambaram was attacked)

Again I think it’s wrong to keep perpetuating this, no one has ever said from the IAF that the primary mission of Garuds is force protection. In fact whenever they talk about themselves or do demonstrations CSAR is the role they play up. This mission defines them the most and explains their deployment patterns and force structure.

Of course for this mission I they are incredibly ill-equipped and under skilled as of now.

Force/base protection only falls under their remit for a few foreword/strategic bases and occasions but to say it’s their primary mission just isn’t accurate.


talking specifically about Pathankot- there was only a small detachment of Garuds deployed there, to act as a QRT. They made initial contact then handed over the job to NSG that were there enmasse (probably the entire CTTF so around 200 personnel so around 120-150 ‘shooters’).

they were the first unit to detect and engage the terrorists, that’s about all that can be said about their performance IMO but the damage that a small squad of terrorists was able to inflict on them is rather disturbing even when you account for startle factor.

 

[Killbot]

The Pak terrorists had prior knowledge of the base and trained on that basis only. ALL Pak terrorists are directly or indirectly trained by SSG/ISI instructors. Hence, they should not be taken lightly. During the Chechen war, when Spetsnazs faced Muslim Chechen rebels(including ex-Spetsnaz defectors), many of their tactics flopped as the Chechen instructors had prior SFs experience and trained the rebels accordingly.

So you're saying terrorists are better trained than our SF?

Well, nuff said.

 

[abingdonboy]

Noob question....
These guys are civilian instructors?
Room intervention done by JKP SOG(probably)
I know it's a police thread thing
Just want to compare it to NSG room intervention shown in the RSTV documentary
The NSG one looked cool, seemless, and really quick

This one seems "slow", for lack of a better word
Also the shoulder transition in first few seconds(doesn't count as much though)

I don’t expect any special missions police unit in India to be ultra slick especially when compared to NSG but do we know at what stage this training is? This might be the first few days and are just getting the basics down (arcs of fire, movement, shooting in a CQB environment etc)

the fact that they are not in any tactical gear seems to indicate that too.

that said almost all the police units I’ve seen in India look incredibly clumsy with their drills except a few who seem to take it seriously- Punjab police definitely do NOT.

 

[abingdonboy]

The only way we could have come to know their complete performance level was to let them neutralise the terrorists once they were cornered in the secluded wooded perimeter of the base. Failure to neutralise the terrorists is the collective blame of higher ups, DSC, Air Force Police and Garuds. IMO they did an okayish job with the equipment they had in cornering the terrorists from the main parts and residential parts of the base and avoiding damage to any major assests. They should have been the ones to finish of the job . Only then we could completely judge them. Now we have no major clue of how they’d function in such a situation since NSG did the job again which isn’t really their job too.

At most there were 20 Garuds on that base. They were never in a position to undertake the subsequent clearance operations and doing so would’ve cost them more lives and risked the terrorists slipping the net.

Consider that NSG came in with full EOD/BDS, weapons support, sniper, K9, C&C etc support units and were equipped with NVG, TI, through wall radars, armoured assault vehicles etc etc

All Garuds had were some ‘regular’ teams and maybe a couple of them had a Galil DMR, if left to the IAF (or even the IA as the veteran community has been screaming about) it would’ve been a complete cluster ****.

 

[Scramjet]

Are these guys JKP SOG? Never seen them with Tavor… @Unknowncommando 2 have you?

Punjab Police SOG it is.....JKP SOG has a few number of x95s

 

[FalconSlayers]

Punjab Police SOG it is.....JKP SOG has a few number of x95s

Any pic of JKP guys with X-95? Never saw one in my life.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

At most there were 20 Garuds on that base. They were never in a position to undertake the subsequent clearance operations and doing so would’ve cost them more lives and risked the terrorists slipping the net.

Consider that NSG came in with full EOD/BDS, weapons support, sniper, K9, C&C etc support units and were equipped with NVG, TI, through wall radars, armoured assault vehicles etc etc

All Garuds had were some ‘regular’ teams and maybe a couple of them had a Galil DMR, if left to the IAF (or even the IA as the veteran community has been screaming about) it would’ve been a complete cluster ****.

Oh now it makes sense, didn’t know about their low numbers

 

[Scramjet]

Any pic of JKP guys with X-95? Never saw one in my life.

Will show, wait

 

[rkhanna]

small detachment of Garuds deployed there, to act as a QRT.

SO Couple if things. This is IMO

1. Garud ( small unit) made initial contact. Recieved heavy resistance.
2. With zero intel on number and location of intruders they reverted back to their primary tasking - protection of critical AF assets.
- None of the terrorist were successful in their attempt to breach the inner cordon
3. Wider base became the responsibility of second responders

So you're saying terrorists are better trained than our SF?

The point of special operations is that its not about better trained. - the better tactics wins the engagement - speed, stealth and violence of action

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Again I think it’s wrong to keep perpetuating this, no one has ever said from the IAF that the primary mission of Garuds is force protection. In fact whenever they talk about themselves or do demonstrations CSAR is the role they play up. This mission defines them the most and explains their deployment patterns and force structure.

Of course for this mission I they are incredibly ill-equipped and under skilled as of now.

Force/base protection only falls under their remit for a few foreword/strategic bases and occasions but to say it’s their primary mission just isn’t accurate.


talking specifically about Pathankot- there was only a small detachment of Garuds deployed there, to act as a QRT. They made initial contact then handed over the job to NSG that were there enmasse (probably the entire CTTF so around 200 personnel so around 120-150 ‘shooters’).

they were the first unit to detect and engage the terrorists, that’s about all that can be said about their performance IMO but the damage that a small squad of terrorists was able to inflict on them is rather disturbing even when you account for startle factor.

So this is the problem with most people on the forum.

The system failure of keeping 20 Garuds in a base like Pathankot which is next to Pakistan is whose fault?(knowing so many breaches happen of the IB)

Whose responsibility is to access the threat?

Why 20 Garuds were considered plenty for any threat when they were not?

This system of a Logistics officer made a SF officer and back to logistics after may be working for the Navy because of high seas but it will not work for Garuds.

You need proper SF aptitude officers with proper training and exposure to run the units.

Garuds and Marcos dont have high level experience in officers to run the show.

And like everyone thinks on the forum that bloody 1 Marcos or Garud will come and kill everyone it doesnt happen in real world.

You need proper planning, equipment,training.

You also need people with vision.These 2-3 year term/tenure people can never have long term vision for anything.

I am really disappointed with Garuds.2 decades is hell of a time to evolve.

I have many more things i wish i could say..but time will come down the line where i will talk about it.

 

[abingdonboy]

So this is the problem with most people on the forum.

The system failure of keeping 20 Garuds in a base like Pathankot which is next to Pakistan is whose fault?(knowing so many breaches happen of the IB)

Whose responsibility is to access the threat?

Why 20 Garuds were considered plenty for any threat when they were not?

This system of a Logistics officer made a SF officer and back to logistics after may be working for the Navy because of high seas but it will not work for Garuds.

You need proper SF aptitude officers with proper training and exposure to run the units.

Garuds and Marcos dont have high level experience in officers to run the show.

And like everyone thinks on the forum that bloody 1 Marcos or Garud will come and kill everyone it doesnt happen in real world.

You need proper planning, equipment,training.

You also need people with vision.These 2-3 year term/tenure people can never have long term vision for anything.

I am really disappointed with Garuds.2 decades is hell of a time to evolve.

I have many more things i wish i could say..but time will come down the line where i will talk about it.

Can’t argue with any of this

Problem is the entire system failed in Pathankot- the terrorists should never have gotten anywhere near the airbase, they should’ve been intercepted by local police (we know instead they were helping the terrorists get to the airbase), they shouldn’t have been able to breach the perimeter (they did very easily) as DSC and IAF police are meant to protect from that, only then was it a Garud problem. The role Garuds play in these strategic bases is QRT hence they will always be there in limited numbers. Yes this incident may have highlighted the limitations in deploying them in such limited numbers but at the same time it’s not that feasible to have them in significantly larger numbers at all these foreword airbases considering they have other primary roles.



After pathankot I believe the IAF plans to double the strength of Garuds so perhaps they are looking to address this but IMO that’s treating the symptom and not the cause. Instead the airbases need to be fortified, technology employed and the actual force protection security forces like DSC/IAF police need to be upgraded, unskilled and expanded.


This is generally the problem with India- failings are systemic and not individual hence the incentive is always to brush things under the carpet for fear of tainting everyone. There’s the Swiss cheese model but in india there are 10x as many holes and they are much bigger so they align much more often.

Garuds will never live up to their potential until they get more autonomy and the IAF actually understands their role, it’s not good enough just to raise a SOF, the IAF needs to raise entire rescue squadrons of which Garuds are just one part.


For what it’s worth:

 

[Ayushraj]

So this is the problem with most people on the forum.

The system failure of keeping 20 Garuds in a base like Pathankot which is next to Pakistan is whose fault?(knowing so many breaches happen of the IB)

Whose responsibility is to access the threat?

Why 20 Garuds were considered plenty for any threat when they were not?

This system of a Logistics officer made a SF officer and back to logistics after may be working for the Navy because of high seas but it will not work for Garuds.

You need proper SF aptitude officers with proper training and exposure to run the units.

Garuds and Marcos dont have high level experience in officers to run the show.

And like everyone thinks on the forum that bloody 1 Marcos or Garud will come and kill everyone it doesnt happen in real world.

You need proper planning, equipment,training.

You also need people with vision.These 2-3 year term/tenure people can never have long term vision for anything.

I am really disappointed with Garuds.2 decades is hell of a time to evolve.

I have many more things i wish i could say..but time will come down the line where i will talk about it.

Real issue in pathankot attack
1) panauti was reporting how to do infiltration from pak India border 1 month before attack
2) SP salwinder singh transported terrorist to iaf base in this own jeep
3) some iaf personnel turned street light from where terrorist infiltrated into iaf base.
Their is famous chhatrapati Shivaji maharaj saying -never count number of soldiers of enemy. Always count number of traitor inside your army.

 

[t 90s]

everything need to change from food to training. need to train certain section of people & communities from young age from school onwards enough time for grooming, since we do not have a gun culture anymore. Indian soldier is not that educated for obvious reasons & planning & training department is a disappointment.

 

[t 90s]

that said almost all the police units I’ve seen in India look incredibly clumsy with their drills except a few who seem to take it seriously- Punjab police definitely do NOT.

What do you think is the reason? I have a opinion but it will probably get me banned.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

What do you think is the reason? I have a opinion but it will probably get me banned.

Go ahead, you’ve given fair warning