Indian Special Forces

[Kumaoni]

When had denial helped anyone?
I don't have an opinion on his opinion, but this i said WAS true... When you get chased through the whole Arunachal till the plains of Assam & some had escaped into neutral Bhutan in the way, then showing off a mere arty-duel where nothing substantial was achieved... It utterly pathetic.




Exactly my initial point about that Ranger's opinion... The IA is too diversely vast & non-homogeneous to have any single quality standard.

Yeah, but the army underwent an entire reform after 1962. Do keep that in mind. The army of 1967 was an entire different beast than the one in 1962.

 

[abingdonboy]

I once came across a rant made by a Ranger or Delta or something on Quora. American guy.

He rated individually Indian personnel were far below themselves or any NATO ally at combat capability... His opinion was it's not only tech or equipments. The very Indian attitude is problematic. I learnt that all military training exercises are a choreographed joke, with the same tactics being brainlessly used without any attempt to improvement or trying to find the effectiveness or weakness.
Gave an example of how one Swedes sub once "sank" an American carrier in exercise. That it'll never happen in an Indian exercise, because there everything always goes according to plan.

Sounds spot on for IA but as others have pointed out not quite accurate for IN/IAF and the examples have already been provided- can’t expect a US army grunt to know about the other services. Both IAF and IN have proven they have dynamic thinking and actually are the opposite of formulaic if required.

IA though is 100% show and do, no improvisation most of the time, just watching their drills and you’ll see they are training and operating the same as they would’ve been 40 years ago- give or take. When in doubt throw more men into the meat grinder.

give IAF and IN more CAPEX and I think they’ll hold their own, I’m genuinely convinced the IA are paper tigers that’ll be humiliated within a few days of a serious peer fight, nothing I’ve heard from their senior leadership in the last 10 years gives me the impression they have a warfighter’s mindset, it’s all the same rhetoric they’ve repeated for generations- even their PR is all copy and paste.

 

[abingdonboy]

I once came across a rant made by a Ranger or Delta or something on Quora. American guy.

He rated individually Indian personnel were far below themselves or any NATO ally at combat capability... His opinion was it's not only tech or equipments. The very Indian attitude is problematic. I learnt that all military training exercises are a choreographed joke, with the same tactics being brainlessly used without any attempt to improvement or trying to find the effectiveness or weakness.
Gave an example of how one Swedes sub once "sank" an American carrier in exercise. That it'll never happen in an Indian exercise, because there everything always goes according to plan.

Further to the above- it’s made me think about what really bothers me about the IA- it’s not just about their abysmal gear, that’s one part of it but the much more disturbing and frustrating part is the mindset that goes with it. Listen to U.K/US army sources and plenty of them will say how XYZ country has inferior equipment to them BUT their soldiers are impressive, they are well trained, hard and improvise well. The Swedes always get mentioned in this regard but I’ve heard similar things about a lot of the newer NATO members and some SE Asian soldiers too.

equipment is always what you can improve on but it flows from tactics and requirements (as well as budget), when IA gets some money what are they spending it on? Jet packs and all sorts of wonderwaffen instead of focusing on getting the basics right (PPE, weapons sights, support weapons, C&C etc etc)

so much of what you see from the IA just seems to be a box ticking exercise- soldiers need a helmet and a gun, job done. Very little seems to go into actual soldiering. Like I said during the yudh abhayas pics- why aren’t the IA soldiers at the least putting foliage in their helmets like the US guys were? Basic sh!t. All the IA contingent’s stuff seemed fresh out of a box where it will no doubt be returned once the unit return home. Not a serious army.

 

[Kumaoni]

Sounds spot on for IA but as others have pointed out not quite accurate for IN/IAF and the examples have already been provided- can’t expect a US army grunt to know about the other services. Both IAF and IN have proven they have dynamic thinking and actually are the opposite of formulaic if required.

IA though is 100% show and do, no improvisation most of the time, just watching their drills and you’ll see they are training and operating the same as they would’ve been 40 years ago- give or take. When in doubt throw more men into the meat grinder.

give IAF and IN more CAPEX and I think they’ll hold their own, I’m genuinely convinced the IA are paper tigers that’ll be humiliated within a few days of a serious peer fight, nothing I’ve heard from their senior leadership in the last 10 years gives me the impression they have a warfighter’s mindset, it’s all the same rhetoric they’ve repeated for generations- even their PR is all copy and paste.

No the examples of the Gorkhas, Paras, and the numerous of instances of 1965 and 1971 along with the recent taking of the mountaintops in 2020 were all the indian army.

Also honorable mention- Blocking and intercepting of a PLA patrol by two Young officers in 2019. In a special order which is restricted so i doubt it’s propagnda

 

[Kumaoni]

Very well put. Although, to be fair to the rank and file soldiers, I'd say, 90 percent (or maybe even more) of the time they had to disengage and run because they ran out of ammo. The resupply situation, especially in the eastern theater, was so hilariously abysmal that within just 3–4 hours of making first contact, the 7th brigade had pretty much exhausted their ammunition reserves.

Battle of Walong and Namka Chu were the probably the army’s only bright spots in this theatre

I think in the battle of walong was probably the only place where Pla suffered more Killed In action AND wounded in action than the indian military.

 

[Blood+]

Battle of Walong and Namka Chu were the probably the army’s only bright spots in this theatre

I think in the battle of walong was probably the only place where Pla suffered more Killed In action AND wounded in action than the indian military.

Namka Chu was only a bright spot for the rank and file; otherwise, it was a fuckup of epic proportions. The Army should have never deployed the 7th Brigade in that devil-forsaken place.
PS - Do not forget Rezangla.

 

[Kumaoni]

Namka Chu was only a bright spot for the rank and file; otherwise, it was a fuckup of epic proportions. The Army should have never deployed the 7th Brigade in that devil-forsaken place.
PS - Do not forget Rezangla.

My personal favorite was the battle of walong as we actually instances of IA achieving success there, although even there we were overrun after running out of ammo.

And yes, the nehru formed army brass is responsible for the namka chi debacle.

Rezang La was legendary.

 

[abingdonboy]

No the examples of the Gorkhas, Paras, and the numerous of instances of 1965 and 1971 along with the recent taking of the mountaintops in 2020 were all the indian army.

Also honorable mention- Blocking and intercepting of a PLA patrol by two Young officers in 2019. In a special order which is restricted so i doubt it’s propagnda

Exceptions that prove the rule

+an attritional conflict will work against the Pakis on occasion and even terrorists but the PLA will cut through easily with their mechanisation.

 

[Kumaoni]

Exceptions that prove the rule

+an attritional conflict will work against the Pakis on occasion and even terrorists but the PLA will cut through easily with their mechanisation.

Really? Exceptions during a whole war? Wow then the whole winning of 1971 must be an exception. You learn something new everyday!

 

[Blood+]

+an attritional conflict will work against the Pakis on occasion and even terrorists but the PLA will cut through easily with their mechanisation.

I asked you this before and am asking you again: how exactly do you propose the PLA crosses over the Himalayas with all these mechanized forces you speak of?? Have you ever visited a place close to the LAC?? Do you have any idea about the nature of the terrain??!!

 

[Kumaoni]

I asked you this before and am asking you again: how exactly do you propose the PLA crosses over the Himalayas with all their mechanized forces?? Have you ever visited a place close to the LAC?? Do you have any idea about the nature of the terrain??!!

So the PLA which has only attacked india with sticks stones and rods so far, and has been thwarted on numerous occasions will cross over mountains with mechanized divisions. You really learn something new everyday.

 

[Blood+]

So the PLA which has only attacked india with sticks stones and rods so far, and has been thwarted on numerous occasions will cross over mountains with mechanized divisions. You really learn something new everyday.

Lol. The nature of any future war between the PLA and IA will likely not differ too much from the one fought in 1962. It'll be confined to large-scale clashes between opposing infantry units with generous use of heavy artillery; in short, it'll be a bloodbath of proportions likely surpassing the current Russo-Ukrainian war.

 

[Kumaoni]

Lol. The nature of any future war between the PLA and IA will likely not differ too much from the one fought in 1962. It'll be confined to large-scale clashes between opposing infantry units with generous use of heavy artillery; in short, it'll be a bloodbath of proportions likely surpassing the current Russo-Ukrainian war.

We have the potential to win if we apply ourselves. and we don’t apply ourselves unfortunately.

 

[Blood+]

We have the potential to win if we apply ourselves. and we don’t apply ourselves unfortunately.

The biggest problem will be the night blindness although I hear, situation is improving on that regard, albeit at a less than desirable rate.

 

[Kumaoni]

The biggest problem will be the night blindness although I hear, situation is improving on that regard, albeit at a less than desirable rate.

Night blindness hundred percent. We have zero chance to even fight at the night right now

 

[Blood+]

Night blindness hundred percent. We have zero chance to even fight at the night right now

yeah. And in an war, this factor alone might become our undoing. I hear that thermal imagers and gen 3 NVGs are being made available to the border troops (both LoC and LAC) but the rate is unsatisfactory, as is typical in the Indian Army. And as the current war in Europe has shown us, we'd need a lot of cheap FPV drones with thermals as well to go along with the hand held ones.

 

[abingdonboy]

So the PLA which has only attacked india with sticks stones and rods so far, and has been thwarted on numerous occasions will cross over mountains with mechanized divisions. You really learn something new everyday.

It suits China to not go hot and abide by the no arms rule along the LAC up to a point. Do you think the 1000s of KMs of roads and strategic rail lines they are building right up to their frontlines are just for carrying sticks and stones?

 

[Kumaoni]

It suits China to not go hot and abide by the no arms rule along the LAC up to a point. Do you think the 1000s of KMs of roads and strategic rail lines they are building right up to their frontlines are just for carrying sticks and stones?

They will do infantry assaults with mass artillery, combined with night ops. The night ops is what will screw is over if we don’t get 3rd gen NVG. We can’t just keep illuminating the damn sky everytime they attack. I

 

[abingdonboy]

I asked you this before and am asking you again: how exactly do you propose the PLA crosses over the Himalayas with all these mechanized forces you speak of?? Have you ever visited a place close to the LAC?? Do you have any idea about the nature of the terrain??!!

The belief that you can win by holding choke points and denying enemy freedom of movement has bitten more than One army in the past including the IA.

 

[Blood+]

The belief that you can win by holding choke points and denying enemy freedom of movement has bitten more than One army in the past including the IA.

This is not the answer to my questions, so I'll ask again - how do you scale mountains with heavy mechanized equipment??

has bitten more than One army in the past including the IA.

Hmmm....care to give a few examples of the said happenings in Indian Army's context?? In fact, we have seen more evidence to the contrary in the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian war, where it has been exceedingly difficult for an attacker to bypass or overrun strongly held static defenses, and that too over completely flat plains due to wide scale and round-the-clock use of modern surveillance equipment by both sides!!

One can only imagine how much more difficult it would be in our context.