Indian Special Forces

Kumaoni

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View attachment 175765
Dude! Like read any sensible material on LTTE, they were great. Trained in Chakrata they actually had all what you'd expect Special Group or IMSF in those days to have, like cause both of these units had MP5s right. But here you see an LTTE member with M4 Carbine and an M203 UBGL. Look at their trigger discipline and weapon handling. Maj Sapru's father raised a toast to them. Indian Army veterans from those times have stated that they respected them for their capabilities.

View attachment 175766

India learnt lessons that help us fight insurgency in Kashmir, Para Commando units were renamed Special Forces after experience gained fighting the LTTE and learning lessons on ground. Why did MARCOS not loose a single chap but Para Commando units did, cause they fought 'commando like' during the initial stages of the war.
See this, what they did afterwards, how they changed.

Mind you, he was in Sri Lanka after 1987. And Lt Gen Tej Pathak, 9 Para SF's CO of that time told him "My orders have to be strict. Listen to me or we'll loose lives" From their they built their fighting capabilities right?
Indian Army Veterans are full of respect for their enemies. Even the Pakistanis. Did you know in 1971 a Paki got a third highest gallantry award from his country by a citation written to it. I can send you excerpts from the book which say things like this:
95830BCB-251B-4C33-B1A7-F996B0DEFF52.jpeg
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My point is that, despite commiting every tactical blunder known possible to mankind, be it constant intel leaks, fighting AKs with literal SLRs, not having proper maps, being equipped for peacekeeping, stepping on numerous minefields, horrible patrolling intel, and the LTTE having every advantage in the book and a well thought out plan to defend Jaffna, which they bloodied the SLA in, the IPKFs capture of Jaffna in two weeks is no minor feat.

What happened afterwards can be soley and squarely blamed on intel IMO. You can’t nab guerrilla leaders with inadequate intel. I had a conversation the other day with a elder person, who knew a couple of veterans from Vietnam and whose father personally . Apparently the green Berrets use to do covert OPs in Cambodia to get intel. Intel is key when fighting a giuerilla, that’s why the IA in Kashmir has done much better than the debacle that was Lanka.

So why did India fail to dismantle the LTTE? There are numerous reasons as to why. To me, the primary one was the whole mission sent in was wrong. Like rkhanna said, you can’t fight a militant group, that has had training from RAW and basically knew the Indian way of war in and out, with mere peacekeeping force.

But that’s not to say there weren’t instances, especially in the Battle for Jaffna, in which regular and SF units alike made adjustments to score tactical victories.

However the mission as a whole was a colossal failure because it was wrong from the start.0
 

SGOperative

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India learnt lessons that help us fight insurgency in Kashmir, Para Commando units were renamed Special Forces after experience gained fighting the LTTE and learning lessons on ground. Why did MARCOS not loose a single chap but Para Commando units did, cause they fought 'commando like' during the initial stages of the war.
Marcos operated mostly near the water bodies undertaking combat diving operations, neatly done but Para were conducting much more ops and in the strong zone of LTTE.
 

Jedi Operator

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So why did India fail to dismantle the LTTE? There are numerous reasons as to why. To me, the primary one was the whole mission sent in was wrong. Like rkhanna said, you can’t fight a militant group, that has had training from RAW and basically knew the Indian way of war in and out, with mere peacekeeping force.
Exactly, by the way does anybody know what MARCOS training Sri Lankans in 2009...had any effect on the final blow to LTTE. We were not in the fight. But I've read somewhere that R&AW tried to influence LTTE indirectly to start fighting conventionally and meanwhile supported Sri Lankan military in 2008-2009.

Screenshot (5890).png


Does it have anything to do with it. Now many will say that MARCOS didnt necessarily go to train against LTTE, so watch this....he mentions it kind of. I dont know how I found this but at the right time.

marcos in sri lanka.jpg
 

Kumaoni

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Exactly, by the way does anybody know what MARCOS training Sri Lankans in 2009...had any effect on the final blow to LTTE. We were not in the fight. But I've read somewhere that R&AW tried to influence LTTE indirectly to start fighting conventionally and meanwhile supported Sri Lankan military in 2008-2009.

View attachment 175784

Does it have anything to do with it. Now many will say that MARCOS didnt necessarily go to train against LTTE, so watch this....he mentions it kind of. I dont know how I found this but at the right time.

View attachment 175785
IPKF destroyed LTTEs ability to wage CONVENTIONAL WAR SUCCSESFULLY like they did before battle for Jaffna, by capturing Jaffna and destroying many ammo dumps. It would make sense that it forced a conventional unit to become a guerilla, and after withdrawing, influenced the guerilla unit to become a conventional fighting force,
 

ManhattanProject

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Just put the dude on ignore and enjoy the bliss, you guys know who i am talking about. He is the example for "half knowledge is worse than no knowledge". Dude learnt a few thing and went to war with his ignorance.
 

Jedi Operator

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Just put the dude on ignore and enjoy the bliss, you guys know who i am talking about. He is the example for "half knowledge is worse than no knowledge". Dude learnt a few thing and went to war with his ignorance.
He cursed you to perish in everything in life. You seem to have taken it seriously. You ok na bro? You can curse him too
"Bolo @Kumaoni Kesseri"
 

Floydian

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Exactly, by the way does anybody know what MARCOS training Sri Lankans in 2009...had any effect on the final blow to LTTE. We were not in the fight. But I've read somewhere that R&AW tried to influence LTTE indirectly to start fighting conventionally and meanwhile supported Sri Lankan military in 2008-2009.

View attachment 175784

Does it have anything to do with it. Now many will say that MARCOS didnt necessarily go to train against LTTE, so watch this....he mentions it kind of. I dont know how I found this but at the right time.

View attachment 175785
Had seen some posts by an ex- Porki militant about how his dad (an ex- SSG) had trained the Lankan Army to fight the LTTE, back in the early 90s!! He had put this info along pics of his old man with the Lankans sometime back on Twitter!!
 

STORE

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Are you sure that's a Marco?
Damn it's sometimes so difficult to distinguish between Marcos and the regular VBSS men of the IN!!
Not sure now. I though he was Marcos by his west and overall appearance. If he is part of VBSS, I would say its pretty good set up.
 

Blademaster

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No, that was very different situation. Japan surrendered to the Allies, their generals got tried for war crimes, and they became an American vassal. The US still controls Guam. They still have naval bases in Okinawa and the Ryukyu Islands. They (Japs) also lost all their colonies (Burma, Malaysia, Thailand (vassal), Phillipines, Manchuria, SGP etc etc). Japan's entire geopolitical scenario is still centered around the US. These are all very tangible gains made by the US as a result of Japan's defeat.

They survived, didn't win.

Also OT, sorry
LTTE is wiped out today. None of the leaders are surviving. Just a matter of time.
 

Jedi Operator

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Had seen some posts by an ex- Porki militant about how his dad (an ex- SSG) had trained the Lankan Army to fight the LTTE, back in the early 90s!! He had put this info along pics of his old man with the Lankans sometime back on Twitter!!
Ex-militant? SSG da putar millitant, atleast secuirty gaurd toh banta, aur uss militant ka twitter account bhi tha!
Toba Toba Toba. Ye kya ho raha hei duniya mei. Vo Pakistani Punjabi ko pessa khilate hein, Kashmiri ko millitant banate hei, ab kya hei?
Are you sure that's a Marco?
Damn it's sometimes so difficult to distinguish between Marcos and the regular VBSS men of the IN!!
Na I think that's Navy E.O.D from Command Clearance Diving Teams, or in case attached to MARCOS
 

Kumaoni

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Ex-militant? SSG da putar millitant, atleast secuirty gaurd toh banta, aur uss militant ka twitter account bhi tha!
Toba Toba Toba. Ye kya ho raha hei duniya mei. Vo Pakistani Punjabi ko pessa khilate hein, Kashmiri ko millitant banate hei, ab kya hei?

Na I think that's Navy E.O.D from Command Clearance Diving Teams, or in case attached to MARCOS
Yup. ASS ASS G has always been doing state sponsored terrorism in kashmir, they did even in Afgh until Musharraf shook hands with the bush family.
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

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View attachment 175765
Dude! Like read any sensible material on LTTE, they were great. Trained in Chakrata they actually had all what you'd expect Special Group or IMSF in those days to have, like cause both of these units had MP5s right. But here you see an LTTE member with M4 Carbine and an M203 UBGL. Look at their trigger discipline and weapon handling. Maj Sapru's father raised a toast to them. Indian Army veterans from those times have stated that they respected them for their capabilities.

View attachment 175766

India learnt lessons that help us fight insurgency in Kashmir, Para Commando units were renamed Special Forces after experience gained fighting the LTTE and learning lessons on ground. Why did MARCOS not loose a single chap but Para Commando units did, cause they fought 'commando like' during the initial stages of the war.
See this, what they did afterwards, how they changed.

Mind you, he was in Sri Lanka after 1987. And Lt Gen Tej Pathak, 9 Para SF's CO of that time told him "My orders have to be strict. Listen to me or we'll loose lives" From their they built their fighting capabilities right?
Marcos was not involved in dirty ops and the intensity was also less.

Para SF and Infantry did what US Marines did in Vietnam... Moving day and night in the jungle and getting ambushed.
 

Kumaoni

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Marcos was not involved in dirty ops and the intensity was also less.

Para SF and Infantry did what US Marines did in Vietnam... Moving day and night in the jungle and getting ambushed.
Well. For the most part yes, but It’s a bit of a different comparison.
US marines were fighting defensive battles, as their main objective was to save South Vietnam. IPKF went from a conventional war force from the end of Jaffna, to a counterinsurgency police type force where they tried to capture most of the senior cadre but failed due to poor intel.
 

Kumaoni

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Totally unprepared and ill-equipped, that was the IPKF
Colonel John Taylor (retd), one of the first officers assigned to the IPKF, says the army was made to fight with one hand tied behind its back.
By the time the Indian Peace Keeping Force was inducted after the India-Sri Lanka Accord, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Ealam had emerged a strong militant group on the island. They had wiped out all opposition, both Tamil and Sinhala. They had full control of the North and East. They were running a parallel government. The administration and judiciary were with them.

The LTTE was both loved and feared by all. When I was in Sri Lanka, the only Sinhalas north of the Elephant Pass were the Sri Lankan troops stationed there. Only Tamils were safe in the area. Such was the total control of the LTTE, because of their mass appeal.

When the Sri Lankan government reached its wit's end, it decided on military action. It sent in its armed forces to sort out the LTTE. The first full-scale military action, involving tanks, armoured personnel, carriers, artillery and armed helicopters was launched in 1987. The ruthless manner in which the Sri Lankan troops assaulted villages led the Tamils to cry 'genocide'.
Many critics have labelled the IPKF's role on the island as India's Vietnam. The Sri Lankan Tamils, fed on LTTE propaganda, boasted of giving the fourth largest army in the world, a bloody nose.
Nothing can be further from the truth.

The IPKF had successfully eliminated the middle order leadership of the LTTE and broken their stronghold over the Jaffna peninsula. The LTTE was forced to take refuge in the jungles of the North and East. The Elephant Pass was open for the first time after the LTTE had taken control of the Jaffna. Movement of goods from the South, East and West was made possible after a long period of time.

However, the IPKF operations were not a complete success. We were unable to unite the different Tamil groups, mainly because of the intransigent attitude of the LTTE. It wanted the whole pie or nothing.

Anyone with a military background will tell you that for an army to be successful in an operation of the size and magnitude in Sri Lanka, it must have excellent intelligence, freedom of action to plan and execute its operations, and sound logistic support
Intelligence, or lack of it, has always been the bane of independent India. Every military operation undertaken by us has been dogged by poor -- no, pathetic -- intelligence. The Kargil Committee Report too has highlighted this aspect.

We were aware of the LTTE's domination over other militant organisations, but we were not aware of their innovative tactics, resourcefulness, tremendous mass support and, most importantly, their excellent intelligence network.

Let me give you two small examples of their subtle yet fatally successful methods of passing on information. Whenever an army patrol left their camp or post, the nearest temple or church would ring their bells to indicate how many men were in the patrol. If the bell chimed six times the strength of the patrol was six, and so on. Only later did we realise the truth of Hemingway's classic For whom the Bells Toll:they were tolling for us.

Passing through a village or township, a small boy or girl would run ahead to the end of the street, pass information about the patrol. The next messenger would be cycle-borne. Thus the message went ahead -- messengers changing every 150 metres or so. Even if they were intercepted, the boy or girl only knew his portion of the route. No one person knew the ultimate destination.

While passing messages on their radio sets, they switched frequencies continuously. So the intercepts were just one line of a coded message. This was something we were learning for the first time, and the hard way too.

The Research and Analysis Wing was in charge of collation of intelligence. The less said about them the better. The intelligence agents were afraid for their lives and hardly dared to venture out of their rooms. All the information they passed on was acquired from the army. Things should have been the other way round.

Unfortunately Rajiv Gandhi mainly accepted the advise given by RAW and other intelligence agencies, and decided to induct the IPKF. What we heard on the grapevine was that the RAW advisors had told the PM, "We will have Prabhakaran in our custody within 72 hours." This was never confirmed, but was an indicator of our poor intelligence assessment.
The entire IPKF operations were politically guided and intelligence oriented. The armed forces had little or no say. Or else, a full-scale military operation without the basic support arm, the artillery, would have never been launched. Tanks and APCs were not used. There was no air cover. Much later, an odd armed helicopter was brought in. For use against an enemy which had taken refuge in the jungles. The only other operation conducted on similar lines was when the Indian army was asked to flush out militants from the Golden Temple: barefoot, with weapons slung over their shoulders.
To be able to send troops to a neighbouring country for policing or for a military operation one has to have a strong and stable government, be at least a mini superpower, be politically and economically strong, have a strong army, air force and a navy with a medium strike radius (something on the lines of the US Seventh Fleet), and be a nuclear power or at least have some nuclear capability.
At that time we did not fulfill any of the above criteria. A strong and capable government means having no internal threat and being able to convince neighbouring countries of one's 'good intentions.' At the time of the IPKF operations, we were the Big Bad Brother of the subcontinent. Even Bhutan and Nepal had axes to grind with us.
Prior to the Accord, in the 1980s, the US-Israeli line favouring Colombo in the conflict was a sore point with New Delhi because of our Tamil lobby. The decision to intervene directly was based on wrong assumptions. We did not have the wherewithal for such large-scale operations and we went in with a token force which was totally unprepared for the job in hand.
It must go to the credit of the Indian armed forces, especially the air force, for conducting one of the largest airlifts since World War II
. Few people are aware that in terms of man and material, more tonnage was lifted by land and sea in Sri Lanka than in any theatre of operation during the WWII. We were not organised for an operation of this nature. We did not have any airborne divisions, nor did we have a Marine Corps; we had never undertaken any amphibious operations. We just sent in an infantry division which had none of those elements. Such was the IPKF, totally unprepared and ill-equipped.
There were no proper maps
. The IPKF did not even have sufficient cooking utensils and radio sets. They were more ceremonial than tactical. Even the chain of command was not adequately defined. The tactical HQ was initially at Southern Command, Pune. Better sense prevailed later and a separate HQ was set up for co-ordinating military operations of the IPKF at Madras.
After the assault on Jaffna the IPKF was also tasked to hold provisional elections and other administrative duties like running essential services and keeping the roads open. They manned banks, post offices, railways and vehicular transport. These jobs were carried out with distinction by the IPKF. This part of the story somehow never got publicity or praise. It was a Herculean task, done with the typical thoroughness that is the hallmark of our armed forces.

The army commanders were never given a free rein. It was always 'orders from Delhi'. The intelligence agencies called the shots. Choice of weapons was dictated from the top. This, in spite of the fact that the IPKF was fighting a very cunning opponent, who had the full support of the local population and who was operating in a terrain very well known to him.
The IPKF, on its part, had to fight in an alien country, alien terrain, face a hostile population and deal with an unfavourable foreign government, who never wanted it in their country in the first place.
India was no economic or military giant to undertake such an operation, but then persons of importance thought otherwise.
Militancy cannot be solved by military action alone; more so in some other country. India should have ensured a dialogue between the Tamils and Sinhalese. That may have been more successful than sending in troops.
The revival of fresh initiatives for a new round of talks between the Sri Lankan government and the LTTE has given rise to a sense of optimism.
The collapse of the Indo-Sri Lanka Accord, and the unsuccessful intervention of the IPKF had led to a stalemate for more than 10 years. No substantial efforts were made by a third party. The recent peace initiative made by Norway is most welcome, and things appear to be a little more brighter as there is now an international interest to end the Tamil-Sinhala stand-off, which has wrecked the political security and economic stability of the island.

A word of caution, however, needs to be added to this: similar attempts have failed in the past. Especially the stand taken by the LTTE when Sri Lankan President Chandrika Kumaratunga proposed peace initiatives. The Tigers have since stepped up their offensive in the Jaffna peninsula.
For better leverage they will also step up their vicious policy of elimination of other Tamil groups and leaders. This is their style, a bloodbath before the calm of negotiations. Kumaratunga was lucky to survive one such attempt, just a day prior to her re-election.
Though India is not interested in a direct involvement now, any negotiations will have to take cognisance of her interests also. The 1997 Accord between the People's Alliance government and the opposition United National Party on the initiative of the British government fell through because New Delhi was not consulted. Whoever negotiates a peace initiative will have to also recognise India's geo-political concerns in the region and bring forward a peace plan that would satisfy all.
 

Jedi Operator

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Marcos was not involved in dirty ops and the intensity was also less.

Para SF and Infantry did what US Marines did in Vietnam... Moving day and night in the jungle and getting ambushed.
I never said MARCOS was involved in dirty ops. I thought you got confused when I said "Special Group and IMSF", well that's basically comparing LTTE's weapons and equipment, cause these two units were the only ones at the time to have AKs and MP5s.
 

rkhanna

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Indian Army Veterans are full of respect for their enemies. Even the Pakistanis
The book I read actually praises the LTTEs tactics. It’s just my opinion of them. I hold the same for the Talibanis.
Come now - The Soldier in interview is not praising their tactics. he is praising their soldiering and even mentions the Radio Patrols - i.e when Indian Soldiers would fake patrols, side outside the wire and call in fake radio calls. You called their Soldiering Shit and you stated it as fact because of one book and because the Indian Army took urban centers all because of 1/3 or one book.

Fact is that your definition of winning is like Dubya claiming mission accomplished in Iraq and the US Army went on to fight an insurgency for a decade.

And simply because you mentioned Taliban in the same rationale only shows your lack of understanding again. The Taliban like the Northern Alliance is NOT a homogenious entity. Different warlords having differet capacities. the Haqqani network were some of the best light infantry fighers the Americans fought in the entire GWOT.

Like i said before. I applaud you for your articulation of what you do know. i caution you on your arrogance for being disinterested in what you dont know. This habbit in your youth will become a crutch for you later in life.
(for whatever its worth :))

Prabhakaran was a cunning fox and his thinking’s in 80s were way ahead of time.I had read in The Island of Blood written by Anita pratap that,during his interview in mid 80s when there was no fighting between India and tamils ,he said that eventually he had to fight indoan army.This was way before IPKF was send and at that time he was in Hotel Asoka in Delhi.
The Reason Prabhakaran said he would eventually have to fight the Indian Army was because the Elam eventually wanted a seperate state carved out of Lanka and TN. The politics of Lanka was very very complex and kinetic and to simply say Prabhakaran and LTTE was a wasted geopolitical opporunity (in reference to what @Killbot also said before) is a sophmoric simpliciation. but that doesnt take away that RG really was short sighted in his approach to the whole thing. He took big brother too literally and screwed the pooch in a number of different ways.

Dude! Like read any sensible material on LTTE, they were great. T
For me? lol I was being sarcastic bro.


ndian Army Veterans are full of respect for their enemies. Even the Pakistanis
The Pakistani's are actually very good and competent soldiers - its not an opinon its a fact. However, 2 decades of radicalization of the upper echelons (and as a by product nepotism) and the shere corrpution that comes from control the Pak is starting to corroding their culture at the very top.

Exactly, by the way does anybody know what MARCOS training Sri Lankans in 2009.
Actually the bulk of Lankan Training for their civil war came from the SSG. The Marcos/Raw attempt was a very late attempt when the GOI woke up but was a little too late. The Lankans eventually then went into the arms of the Chinese because of the Pakis and the Pakis still continue to have a large influence and presense in Lanka via the ISI.

IPKF destroyed LTTEs ability to wage CONVENTIONAL WAR SUCCSESFULLY like they did before battle for Jaffna,
Lol Since the borneo conflict - fighting an insurgency (when a Major Power fights a very lopsided opfor) has been a major norm - Vietnam, Astan, Lanka, GWOT, ISIS, Ukraine etc etc etc. They how do you exclude fighting an insurgency from the definition of a "Conventional War" ? What you expect the opfor the bend over and surrender just because they lost their base/urban centers? the LTTE never HAD a capability to wage conventional war against India.

Had seen some posts by an ex- Porki militant about how his dad (an ex- SSG) had trained the Lankan Army to fight the LTTE, back in the early 90s!! He had put this info along pics of his old man with the Lankans sometime back on Twitter!!
Yes the Paki's filled the vacume when the Indians withdrew post our adventure. The Same they have done in nepal post the end of Monarchy and are trying the same now with Bangladesh as our influence is lessoning with their growing economy and self assurances. Welcome to GeoPolitik.
 

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