Indian Special Forces

[Inderjeet Singh]

Ex British SAS Commander on Indian Special Forces Seminar.

We only do this type of seminars and implement nothing

 

[rkhanna]

Guys what do you think about this:
NSG and SG should be permanent positions

and we should have a Special Forces Support Group (SFSG) based on the British Concept and have the Parachute regiment attached to it, so that they can serve on deputation their and then go back.

9,10 and 1 should be away from the Parachute Regiment and into the Special forces Regiment.

Rest all your Paratroopers should apply for selection and go to SFSG on deputation. Those who want to volunteer for SF can also do that.

By any case I believe that SG should come to the Army not R&AW.....it's more like 22 SAS, Delta Force or Sayeret Matkal. Special Forces Regiment should either be like Green Berets or it should be the case that the best SF operators from each battalion 9, 10 and 1 should be organized into SG's A Team, B Team and C Team respectively. They can maintain their older nick names and insignia like what DEVGRU does. Those who want early retirement should be given. Many others from all these three battalions who were left out as SG's Teams have smaller number of men (75-100 I believe) so they can be a part of a unit for advance forces operations like Delta's G squadron and DEVGRU's Black Squadron. Many others should be able to go to a new SF unit that is more like CIA SAD. 1st Archers i think resembles Intelligence Support Activity. But I know for a fact that those capabilities are limited to the China and Kashmir frontier.

I had a written a suggestion reorg couple of months ago. Have a read if you find it

 

[EternalNxg]

Dude seriously come on? We are in an SF thread and you don't know today's significance? Think harder c'mon.

 

[armyofhind]

Surgical Strikes 2016

 

[Jedi Operator]

Another suggestion. SF shouldn't be used for QRT roles. This we all agree.

Garud's mandate being that of protecting airbases is counterproductive. No country other than India, Pakistan, China and third-world countries use special forces for airbase protection. This role should be done by reserves or airforce police having it's own SWAT like unit.

Currently Garuds are divided into teams of 4-6 men called tracks. Three such tracks make up a squad. And three squads make up a flight. So in this way about 50 some members make up a flight. I estimate their are around 30-40 flights. What i know for a fact is that flights are organized in Groups with each having 500 soldiers in it. They make up 4 flights. So estimated number is about 2000 Garuds.

Makes no sense to put them in CI/CT roles, Base protection etc. Instead reorganize them into capabilities of USAFSWC:

Garud Group 1 - Specializes in leading precision strike, integration of joint fires, and joint all-domain
command and control. (Similar to TACPs)

Garud Group 2 - Specializes in airfield and air infrastructure reconnaissance, establishment and control of austere airfields, and joint terminal attack control. (similar to CCTs)

Garud Group 3 - Specializes in technical rescue; the location, extraction and recovery of personnel or
sensitive equipment; and medical treatment to stabilize and evacuate injured
personnel. (similar to PJs)

Garud Group 4 - extremely lightweight, mobile, and rapidly deployable element that is medically and
tactically trained to provide trauma resuscitation and life-saving surgical care on or near
the battlefield. (similar to Special Operations Surgical Teams)

By the way our Garuds do have some capabilities similar to CCTs/TACPs and PJs but we need a team for Special Operations Surgical Teams. They can easily occupy a position in the combat zone and be ready to support the wounded by shrinking the Golden Hour because of their proximity to combat and crisis, combined with the ability to conduct high-level surgical operations and trauma resuscitation. The golden hour is the first '60 minutes' following any injury or trauma. Prompt medical attention during this period can save one's life. With so many of our soldiers succumbing to injuries, this is a vital capability and a game changer.

Also for those who say Garuds are not as good as Para SF and MARCOS........then start augmenting them into these units like CCTs and PJs are part of Delta Force and SEAL Team 6, even Ranger elements and do operations together.

 

[jai jaganath]

Dude seriously come on? We are in an SF thread and you don't know today's significance? Think harder c'mon.

Itna kaun yad rakhta hai
Anyway thanks bhai

 

[ManhattanProject]

I have one question why army airforce and navy give order to different companies for High cut helmets so much variety from team Wendy to TASL why not buy from one company i think it is easy if you buy from single company they may lowered the price of helmets

Thats because both Marcos and Army SF got their helmets in a package deal. Marcos bought TATA NVGs so they included the TATA helmet, Army bought TONBO thermals and Tonbo decided to supply them with Team Wendy helmets.

 

[ManhattanProject]

There was virtually no photos of the Japanese SG guys in full gear out on the Internet. Finally found a picture.

 

[Kumaoni]

6 years since the legendary event (we keep it classified in here). I hope that we can get some literature on this operation.

 

[Kumaoni]

You have oversimplied a very complex cause and effect.

To start of with

1. We were under equipped and ill trained - The Gorkha units used to running up and down the mountain suffered in the jungles of Lanka
2. THe LTTE had superior Kit to us in many respect specially COMMS
3. We were betrayed on a number of occasions to the LTTE by the Lankans
4. SG/RAW trained the LTTE - some of those trainers i have met - they had the highest regard to the LTTE cadre. The LTTE knew our playbook
5. SOF units did have an outsized impact on the physy of the LTTE but did not make strategic headway. Some units even had 2st gen NVG sets - they did a lot of hunting and CTR / LRRP etc at night. Even MARCOS did some outstanding SpeOps
6 Ultimately it was lack of political will and a disenchanted Army HQ that had a detrimental effect onalot of things from Ops to equipment to moral.

In terms of conventional battles, we won all of them and drove them to the Jungles. It was Indias first time in urban guerilla warfare, and they managed to occupy and destroy the LTTE backbone in Jaffna. It was locating top leaders and breaking the organization itself which was a pain in the ass. Everytime any remotely hardcore militant was caught they would take a cyanide pill and die. Hell, they rarely even left their weapons behind from Cordon Operations.


Not to mention the minefields. 60-70% of Indian fatalities were from minefields, rather than any heroic LTTE resistance.

 

[rkhanna]

In terms of conventional battles, we won all of them and drove them to the Jungles. It was Indias first time in urban guerilla warfare, and they managed to occupy and destroy the LTTE backbone in Jaffna. It was locating top leaders and breaking the organization itself which was a pain in the ass. Everytime any remotely hardcore militant was caught they would take a cyanide pill and die. Hell, they rarely even left their weapons behind from Cordon Operations.


Not to mention the minefields. 60-70% of Indian fatalities were from minefields, rather than any heroic LTTE resistance.

Suggest seeking out and talking to a veteran who served in Lanka. You are over simplyfing a very complex issue.

The Indian Army effectively lost hearts and minds of the local population as well due to a number of excesses and HR violations, we lost humint on a Number of Strategic operations that lead to clusterfucks. To the point where even the local hosts turned against us. It was a mission doomed to failure from the get go. A peace keeping force had to reorient towards peace enforcement and COIN with little or no training or kit. Our losses were what some 1500 KIA and nearly 5000 WIA?

Hell when the war ended and the troops finally came home nobody from the govt or GCHQ even came to recieve them - almost like this was a bad memory to be brushed under the carpet.

IMO There is very little redemption from our Lanka adventure except for instances of individual exceptionalism.

Anyways all this is OFFTOPIC and for another thread

 

[Kumaoni]

Suggest seeking out and talking to a veteran who served in Lanka. You are over simplyfing a very complex issue.

The Indian Army effectively lost hearts and minds of the local population as well due to a number of excesses and HR violations, we lost humint on a Number of Strategic operations that lead to clusterfucks. To the point where even the local hosts turned against us. It was a mission doomed to failure from the get go. A peace keeping force had to reorient towards peace enforcement and COIN with little or no training or kit. Our losses were what some 1500 KIA and nearly 5000 WIA?

Hell when the war ended and the troops finally came home nobody from the govt or GCHQ even came to recieve them - almost like this was a bad memory to be brushed under the carpet.

IMO There is very little redemption from our Lanka adventure except for instances of individual exceptionalism.

Anyways all this is OFFTOPIC and for another thread

I have read first hand accounts of several battalions, including one that was basically the vanguard on the Konduvil-Kokuvil Axis and captured both these towns. I am told from how the. battalion suffered a horrible ambush, to launching several successful cordon operations, and even finding several weapons.

You still miss my point where I said we won all the battles. We did. We destroyed numerous of their base camps. In regards to veterans, it depends on which battalion you ask. Not all battalions perform well in a conflict.

Losing the minds of the people, is totally different comparable. And Indian politicians repeatedly let down the forces starting from the attack on Jaffna itself.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

No even at commands level And TASL high cuts helmets are best for Indian heads and Team Wendy helmets are quite oversized

Team Wendy Helmets look oversized because of the Zorbium Padding present inside the Helmet, that is why they have a special retention system to ensure that no discomfort is caused in terms of fit issues, though there may be cases of our guys not being able to use the retention system properly.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Music and Flag aside, NSG.

 

[rkhanna]

I have read first hand accounts of several battalions, including one that was basically the vanguard on the Konduvil-Kokuvil Axis and captured both these towns. I am told from how the. battalion suffered a horrible ambush, to launching several successful cordon operations, and even finding several weapons.

You still miss my point where I said we won all the battles. We did. We destroyed numerous of their base camps. In regards to veterans, it depends on which battalion you ask. Not all battalions perform well in a conflict.

Losing the minds of the people, is totally different comparable. And Indian politicians repeatedly let down the forces starting from the attack on Jaffna itself.

Firstly alot of what you read today on Lanka has been whitewashed (for a lack of better word).

and you still dont understand what i am saying. You are viewing victories in black / white from a Conventional battle mindset - like the Americans do when they analyse Vietnam. We took towns - but the towns were the WRONG objective. We had ZERO capability to area deny the free movement of LTTE and other rebel groups. The Rebel groups still continued to operate with (relative) impunity for the most part. There were no fixed lines and the enemy made us fight them at THEIR choosing. We were ill equiped and trained for what the task eventually was.

Lastly Our taking of many urban centers (the method and manner) was ill concieved and So brutal that in many cases the LTTE cadre grew due to our excesses. We did not control the battle space for the most part. Loosing hearts and minds had nothing to do with politicans but IA SOPs in a conflict they had no clue they had entered into.

Talking about specific battles or actions is fine - like i said there were definetly moments of Individual brilliance/exceptionalism, but ultimately outshone by the resourcefullness, strategic mindset and commitment of the LTTE. They ultimately took down the Prime Minister of India.

and IMO Op Pawan had a lasting physc effect on Indian Army leadership that we suffer from even today. We went from 71/Op Pawan to becoming a very risk averse force. COIN victories and action in Kashmir satisfied the beaten down Army brass and that has now become a big chain around our ankles. We Struggled and laboured through Kargil and shocked into action against China.

Theaterization, Force Modernization, Cyber Command, CDS, AFSOD etc etc continues to be a stepchild.

Lack of Prep - Equipment, training, C&C, Tech - still plaques us today whether visavis our immediate threats on the border or within our borders OR protecting Indian interests outside our borders - for the 5 largest economy thats unforgivanle.

Lastly to quote my main man Sean Connery. Loosers whine about their best, winners go home and fuck the prom queen.


my absolute Last on this unless its SF related.

 

[jik60]

Music and Flag aside, NSG.

Why to keep the Flag aside ?

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Why to keep the Flag aside ?

Not the forum or thread to discuss such matters. This thread is about SF only and not flags or insignia or symbols.

 

[Kumaoni]

Firstly alot of what you read today on Lanka has been whitewashed (for a lack of better word).

and you still dont understand what i am saying. You are viewing victories in black / white from a Conventional battle mindset - like the Americans do when they analyse Vietnam. We took towns - but the towns were the WRONG objective. We had ZERO capability to area deny the free movement of LTTE and other rebel groups. The Rebel groups still continued to operate with (relative) impunity for the most part. There were no fixed lines and the enemy made us fight them at THEIR choosing. We were ill equiped and trained for what the task eventually was.

Lastly Our taking of many urban centers (the method and manner) was ill concieved and So brutal that in many cases the LTTE cadre grew due to our excesses. We did not control the battle space for the most part. Loosing hearts and minds had nothing to do with politicans but IA SOPs in a conflict they had no clue they had entered into.

Talking about specific battles or actions is fine - like i said there were definetly moments of Individual brilliance/exceptionalism, but ultimately outshone by the resourcefullness, strategic mindset and commitment of the LTTE. They ultimately took down the Prime Minister of India.

and IMO Op Pawan had a lasting physc effect on Indian Army leadership that we suffer from even today. We went from 71/Op Pawan to becoming a very risk averse force. COIN victories and action in Kashmir satisfied the beaten down Army brass and that has now become a big chain around our ankles. We Struggled and laboured through Kargil and shocked into action against China.

Theaterization, Force Modernization, Cyber Command, CDS, AFSOD etc etc continues to be a stepchild.

Lack of Prep - Equipment, training, C&C, Tech - still plaques us today whether visavis our immediate threats on the border or within our borders OR protecting Indian interests outside our borders - for the 5 largest economy thats unforgivanle.

Lastly to quote my main man Sean Connery. Loosers whine about their best, winners go home and fuck the prom queen.


my absolute Last on this unless its SF related.

I want to continue this discussion. I'll post it on some other thread.

 

[Indrajit]

 

[Jedi Operator]

Don't you guys also think that we are finally focusing much more on Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT). This is joint IA and Royal Omani armed force exercise in India. Should've used blanks if not Simunitions instead of paintball though