Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Killbot]

What do you mean by no one is trained for intel gathering, then what do the special forces do by dressing up like jihadis, in POK.

By intel gathering, I meant recruiting humint sources and such. And intel gathering in Pakistan proper. No military unit is trained to do that so far.

Regarding direct action, are they given the authority to conduct direct action behind enemy lines? I don't think they would mind if they are given the opportunity to plan and execute such operations.
When they have been given the opportunity to conduct ops behind enemy lines, they have done it right since 1965, haji pir pass.
Operating in enemy territory isn't something which a ground commander can decide, the order has to come from Delhi. So the point was the DGMO being an SF should have advised the leadership to make a proper structure of the SF.
Now if the SF are happy (as someone mentioned above) with the domain they are operating in, then there is no point in discussing I guess. Cause they would know what's best.

That is the point. Para SF is tasked with too many things. And they have to train for so many different roles. Each soldier does. Which means you cannot expect them to be the best at everything. It would be much better if there were separate units for unconventional warfare, direct action, intel support, intel gathering, internal COIN ops, logistical support, etc.

Most of them would have just been operating in Kashmir or along LoC. If you randomly ask them to conduct a raid in, say Skardu, they won't be prepared for it.

The direct action part itself isn't the problem. Infil and exfil is. You cannot expect choppers to get them there. SAM coverage is too good. They have to infiltrate through the LoC like the terrorists do, get to their target, kill/capture and get the fuck out the same way. All this before the porks can make sense of what is going on. So, it can't be too overt. They need special tactics, equipment and most importantly training to conduct said op. And solid intelligence.

Would the same guys that were operating along LoC till yesterday be prepared for that? No. A separate SOF unit is needed for that. Also, members of such a unit cannot be expected to check terrorist infiltration along LoC 24/7 under artillery shelling and shit.

You can just not expect as much as you do from Para SF. The apathy of the military leadership is to blame for this. They are still stuck in 1965. And the political will? It is fucking pathetic.

 

[MuzzleVelocity]

By intel gathering, I meant recruiting humint sources and such. And intel gathering in Pakistan proper. No military unit is trained to do that so far.



That is the point. Para SF is tasked with too many things. And they have to train for so many different roles. Each soldier does. Which means you cannot expect them to be the best at everything. It would be much better if there were separate units for unconventional warfare, direct action, intel support, intel gathering, internal COIN ops, logistical support, etc.

Most of them would have just been operating in Kashmir or along LoC. If you randomly ask them to conduct a raid in, say Skardu, they won't be prepared for it.

The direct action part itself isn't the problem. Infil and exfil is. You cannot expect choppers to get them there. SAM coverage is too good. They have to infiltrate through the LoC like the terrorists do, get to their target, kill/capture and get the fuck out the same way. All this before the porks can make sense of what is going on. So, it can't be too overt. They need special tactics, equipment and most importantly training to conduct said op. And solid intelligence.

Would the same guys that were operating along LoC till yesterday be prepared for that? No. A separate SOF unit is needed for that. Also, members of such a unit cannot be expected to check terrorist infiltration along LoC 24/7 under artillery shelling and shit.

You can just not expect as much as you do from Para SF. The apathy of the military leadership is to blame for this. They are still stuck in 1965. And the political will? It is fucking pathetic.

Do you have sources to back that up?

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

By intel gathering, I meant recruiting humint sources and such. And intel gathering in Pakistan proper. No military unit is trained to do that so far.



That is the point. Para SF is tasked with too many things. And they have to train for so many different roles. Each soldier does. Which means you cannot expect them to be the best at everything.

That's why I said a DGMO from special forces should form a proper structure of the SF. Cause I don't think it's common for a SF officer to become a Lt Gen.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

The direct action part itself isn't the problem. Infil and exfil is. You cannot expect choppers to get them there. SAM coverage is too good. They have to infiltrate through the LoC like the terrorists do, get to their target, kill/capture and get the fuck out the same way. All this before the porks can make sense of what is going on. So, it can't be too overt. They need special tactics, equipment and most importantly training to conduct said op. And solid intelligence.

So how are you supposed to get deep inside enemy territory, either go on foot (coming back would be nearly impossible) or use some kind of air route which would be stealthy or ask your agents inside enemies country to perform the task against the target and then get underground (in this you will have limited manpower)

 

[Killbot]

Do you have sources to back that up?

?? Sources to back what up?

Well, there might be clandestine units under directorate of military intelligence, or a spec ops unit, but afaik, there are no such units in the military in the public eye. Or are there any such units?

 

[Killbot]

So how are you supposed to get deep inside enemy territory, either go on foot (coming back would be nearly impossible) or use some kind of air route which would be stealthy or ask your agents inside enemies country to perform the task against the target and then get underground (in this you will have limited manpower)

Yeah, infil and exfil by land. Not necessarily by foot per se.. Like I said, such operations have to be Covert. And exfil by land is possible if there is enough surveillance. If not possible, then a secure LZ is found and the force can exfil by air. Electronic warfare systems, decoy systems etc. come to play here.

 

[AZTEC]

Late Brigadier Maharaja Sawai Bhawani Singh (Maha Vir Chakra) with the 10 Para SF.
He was the guy who led the famous Chachro raids in 1971.

Source: Times Now

 

[abingdonboy]

what about a classic undercover op disguised as reds and catch them alive..a true sf op

But thats expecting too much.

For a group that entered a few hours before hand? That’s asking too much. I don’t even know when this has happened outside of the movies (yes yes a few isolated instances can be found)

Elimination of the threat and recovery of intel is a good op for any SF unit

Any country in the world would use specialist combatants for an op like this, it’s not controversial

The present DGMO, who is an officer from 9 Para SF and the colonel of the Parachute regiment, why doesn't he convey it to the cheifs and RMO that special Forces are not to be used in every other ops in the valley. They sould be used like other countries use their Tier 1 SF.

Ok hear me out
Black= special group, SFF
Tier 1= AFSOD
Tier 2= PARA, MARCOS, GARUD.
INTERNAL (NATIONAL GUARD)= NSG, State police commandos.
Tier 3= ghatak, RR
Transport= AAC army aviation corps ( I heard they make the best pilots.)

Trying to emulate what you’ve seen in games and Hollywood without understanding the basic demands that have led to this structure is always going to produce these results.

‘black, Tier 1/2/3’ are all American mil terms, India needs to come up with something unique and optimised for it.

AFSOD is a trail unit that will be used as a formula for an eventual fully fledged SOCOM perhaps 5-7 years down the line from now, it’s is NOT a unit in its own right

SG is as close to tier 1 as India has at this moment but even then it’s not employed anywhere near in the same way as the US tier 1 units because of the very nature of the differences in command and control of JSOC and SG

The murmurs of the Army standing up a small special missions unit drawn from PARA SF appear to be true, what these guys do will be interesting to see, if the navy does something similar then an Indian style JSOC inside INSOCOM could be a reality. But SOCOM has to be the priority first, if that is carved out during this theatrisation shift this will be a big shift in how Indian SFs are configured

Black= We know of SG, so far. And I wouldn't call it an SOF unit. Black ops should be done by so called 'Tier 1' unit. SG should be gathering intelligence. Like @rkhanna has said before, they alone do what Military intelligence support, special mission unit and intelligence gathering unit should be doing. Like every other unit in India, they don't have their roles set in stone.
Also, one wouldn't know anything about other Black units.


Tier 1= none that we know of.


Tier 2= Para, Marcos, Garud and AFSOD. Their roles are overlapping.

'Tier 3' is not a thing. But if you mean specialised infantry, then we have SFF, Para (Air) and Ghataks, all for different roles. RR could also be considered such an organization. But they aren't a 'unit' per se.

I don’t know where this myth about SG being intelligence officers or case handlers has come from, it’s absolutely not true. They aren’t an intelligence unit, they operate under the direction of an intelligence agency which is a big difference.

The absence of information about them doesn’t mean fill in the blanks with nonsense. R&AW has 1000s of case officers, the armed forces have manpower coming out of their ears (and not much else), SG don’t exist to supplement them in that role. They are a sword arm, be certain that.

 

[Desi Aam]

?? Sources to back what up?

Well, there might be clandestine units under directorate of military intelligence, or a spec ops unit, but afaik, there are no such units in the military in the public eye. Or are there any such units?

Yes....there are....!!

Indian Armed Forces do a lot of things and have a tonne of capabilities when it comes to running ops in enemy territory....!!

 

[AZTEC]

I don’t know where this myth about SG being intelligence officers or case handlers has come from, it’s absolutely not true. They aren’t an intelligence unit, they operate under the direction of an intelligence agency which is a big difference.

The absence of information about them doesn’t mean fill in the blanks with nonsense. R&AW has 1000s of case officers, the armed forces have manpower coming out of their ears (and not much else), SG don’t exist to supplement them in that role. They are a sword arm, be certain that.

Yes, that is correct.

The best way to describe SG in a nutshell is this:
SG is the Indian equivalent of the Special Operations Group (SOG) of CIA's Special Activities Center (SAC).
This description is fully supported by the following article written by the well-known journalist Sandeep Unnithan, in which he says that SG is "RAW's ultra-secret military unit for clandestine intelligence missions, the equivalent of CIA's Special Activities Division."

Operation Bluestar: The league of shadows

Few have heard of a secret RAW paramilitary unit that played a critical role in Operation Bluestar.

www.indiatoday.in

However, since information is scarce, we can speculate that the objectives of SG may be somewhat different from CIA's SAC/SOG, perhaps even broader in the following ways:

1) SG may also be doing some of the tasks of, and/or assisting the Indian equivalent of, CIA's SAC/Political Action Group.
2) SG might also be assisting Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) and NTRO.

Nevertheless, take the above two points with a pinch of salt because it is just speculation and conjecture based on some examples from the west.

 

[Killbot]

For a group that entered a few hours before hand? That’s asking too much. I don’t even know when this has happened outside of the movies (yes yes a few isolated instances can be found)

Elimination of the threat and recovery of intel is a good op for any SF unit

Any country in the world would use specialist combatants for an op like this, it’s not controversial



Trying to emulate what you’ve seen in games and Hollywood without understanding the basic demands that have led to this structure is always going to produce these results.

‘black, Tier 1/2/3’ are all American mil terms, India needs to come up with something unique and optimised for it.

AFSOD is a trail unit that will be used as a formula for an eventual fully fledged SOCOM perhaps 5-7 years down the line from now, it’s is NOT a unit in its own right

SG is as close to tier 1 as India has at this moment but even then it’s not employed anywhere near in the same way as the US tier 1 units because of the very nature of the differences in command and control of JSOC and SG

The murmurs of the Army standing up a small special missions unit drawn from PARA SF appear to be true, what these guys do will be interesting to see, if the navy does something similar then an Indian style JSOC inside INSOCOM could be a reality. But SOCOM has to be the priority first, if that is carved out during this theatrisation shift this will be a big shift in how Indian SFs are configured



I don’t know where this myth about SG being intelligence officers or case handlers has come from, it’s absolutely not true. They aren’t an intelligence unit, they operate under the direction of an intelligence agency which is a big difference.

The absence of information about them doesn’t mean fill in the blanks with nonsense. R&AW has 1000s of case officers, the armed forces have manpower coming out of their ears (and not much else), SG don’t exist to supplement them in that role. They are a sword arm, be certain that.

What if such military trained handlers are needed? For instance, training separatists within pakistan or something. I don't refute the fact that they are a sword arm, but there should be separate units for each purpose. Like I said, they are being overused. I know that they do their share of Black raids and stuff. Kidnapping of ISI Col. Zahir Habib, for one.

 

[Killbot]

Yes, that is correct.

The best way to describe SG in a nutshell is this:
SG is the Indian equivalent of the Special Operations Group (SOG) of CIA's Special Activities Center (SAC).
This description is fully supported by the following article written by the well-known journalist Sandeep Unnithan, in which he says that SG is "RAW's ultra-secret military unit for clandestine intelligence missions, the equivalent of CIA's Special Activities Division."

Operation Bluestar: The league of shadows

Few have heard of a secret RAW paramilitary unit that played a critical role in Operation Bluestar.

www.indiatoday.in

However, since information is scarce, we can speculate that the objectives of SG may be somewhat different from CIA's SAC/SOG, perhaps even broader in the following ways:

1) SG may also be doing some of the tasks of, and/or assisting the Indian equivalent of, CIA's SAC/Political Action Group.
2) SG might also be assisting Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) and NTRO.

Nevertheless, take the above two points with a pinch of salt because it is just speculation and conjecture based on some examples from the west.

Hey, that is exactly what I meant when I said SG should be more like military trained research officers.

The CIA SAC's Special Ops Group are trained to be intelligence (case) officers. And for the most part, they do just that.
Johnny Spann died during the battle of Qala-i-Jangi. He was an SAD (then) officer who was sent to interrogate and gather intel from afghans who were captured. They occasionally conduct direct action ops, but only in conjunction with JSOC units...

Johnny Micheal Spann - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Killbot]

Yes....there are....!!

Indian Armed Forces do a lot of things and have a tonne of capabilities when it comes to running ops in enemy territory....!!

Like...?

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Like...?

Confidential cant be disclosed..

 

[Ujjain]

View attachment 67254

don't know if posted before.

Man! Those AKs look better then the Russian crap we're buying. Hopefully these rifles work as good as they look.

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Man! Those AKs look better then the Russian crap we're buying. Hopefully these rifles work as good as they look.

True.....I believe CRPF is going to take over the Counter terror Ops in Valley with KP SOGs...RR and Army would be Looking after ops in border areas...i may be wrong also..

 

[Killbot]

Confidential cant be disclosed..

That's what I said, clandestine. Read my post properly.

 

[tusharfoxtrot]

 

[India Super Power]

I think it's a bogus view

 

[Edyk12]