Indian Special Forces (archived)

[ezsasa]

We are missing a key point in the Gucci gear debate - per capita military budget (PCMB).

PCMB is the answer to the question “when will Indian SF get Gucci gear?”. This question haunts pretty much everyone on this thread but, surprisingly, very few have pointed out the centrality of PCMB.

Let’s do some simple math.

For rough comparison, use this formula:
PCMB = [Total military budget] ÷ [Total number of military personnel]

Let’s do a comparison between UK and India, for example. Using the above formula, we get:
1) PCMB of India = 49221 $ per person
2) PCMB of UK = 328277 $ per person

Ratio of PCMB of UK and India is = 328277 ÷ 49221 ≈ 6.7
This means that the PCMB of UK is 6.7 times more than PCMB of India.
This further means that UK spends 6.7 times more than India per person on its military.
This also roughly implies that the SAS receives 6.7 times more money than Para SF per operator.

In other words, a SAS soldier roughly gets 6.7 times more money than a Para SF soldier.

There you go. Problem solved!!

So when someone asks, “when will Para SF receive SAS-level gear?”, tell them: “if and when India increases its PCMB by several times”.

Yes, this calculation is simplistic. I have not incorporated many other factors like purchasing power etc. But this principle of PCMB is true in its essence.

Let me finish my answer with an example:
PCMB helps explain why even Singapore SF is better equipped than Indian SF.
View attachment 62677

even if we continue with this line of thought, with the rise in PCMB UK has become irrelevant in global scenario over the years unable to sustain their costs.

with 2.75 lakh personnel, brits cannot enforce any military costs upon an adversary on their own. To manage their rising costs, they are even contemplating disbanding their tank regiments.

In this case is PCMB a reliable way to measure anything? It is a statistic which has little real world value as such.

I am not even gonna talk about Singapore military , they are irrelevant in any global military scenario.

 

[AZTEC]

There are many nations with low PCMB than ours but with well equipped SFs.Then there are we and our neighbours with shitty equipment. Atleast in SF modernization India-Paki bhai bhai

Not many.
If you’re referring to Iraqi SF, then keep in mind that Golden Division is funded by the US-led coalition.

Furthermore, some nations (like landlocked ones) have different objectives and therefore have different military priorities. They don’t have to spend on their navy or on ballistic missiles. So they can focus limited resources on SF.

 

[samsaptaka]

There are many nations with low PCMB than ours but with well equipped SFs.Then there are we and our neighbours with shitty equipment. Atleast in SF modernization India-Paki bhai bhai

Rather than PCMB it is resource allocation which is the root cause. SF is not given top priority in our country, since we don't know how to use them to achieve strategic goals. Till that is not fixed, the sorry situation will continue.

 

[rkhanna]

Didn't call you a nigga yet (you're this close). Chill, you can bitch all about comms, equipment, don't bitch about the men who did the Op while sitting on your ass.

First of all. understand that it is through our behavior we demonstrate the greatness of our upbringing, faith and culture. Stop your insults and pot shots at members.

Secondly. I dont bitch about the men. I have 4 generation of my family members who have served in the Indian Army going back to WWI. I have over 9 family members who have served in the Paras

If you cant understand what I am trying to say, thats on you.

However, It was a textbook execution (show me examples of such text book executions from SOF units across the world in this day and age where dozens get slayed), else shove it. I can name only a few units who have the balls, training, ability to have such text book executions.

It was a Texbook Commando operation from the 70s/80s. No rocket science. It was a long patrol and a direct action. Pretty Conventional all in all. Hard for sure. But we dont need to sho

British Paras in the Falklands
Royal Marine Commandos in Borneo
75th Ranger Regiment in Iraq and Afghanistan (Annaconda)
82nd Mountain in Afghanistan

And these are only Commando units not even SOF. Indian SF in Kashmir in the 90s, in Kargil and in Sri Lanka did far far harder and more complicated operations then this. ITS A FACT. move on.

Your arguments dont make coherent sense.

Pak airspace is not denied airspace for Muricans , during Obama's tenure, drones and other assets violated their airspace more often than Goats were getting raped by ISI goat lickers. Also, even if Pakis would have discovered them while the raid was going on, a quick call from Ombaba to whichever unwashed Abdul was PM at that point would have completely render them harmless. Beggar Pakis don't have the balls to fight one of the hands that feeds.

Nope. The operators on SOFREP say otherwise. I will take their word over yours thank you.

Myanmar Op was revenge + premptive strike. They started the 50 km trek well inside our own borders since there are spies and others who monitor the skies for Helos, drones etc. They didn't want spooking HVTs at the target site. Sure, we could drop a nice juicy LGB but that's not as personal as warm lead delivered personally. Also, perhaps over 70+ killed.

Sorry i know a bit about this operation. I also know a bit about how the operations are conducted in that part of the world. A large part is due to restrictions impossed on lack of capability. You think it is easy to spot a drone in the sky? At night?

If we sent a 6 man CTR patrol that grid locked that entire AO. Then at 3 Am Called in an Air Strike from Fixed Wing with Rotary doing mop up and unit pick up post. What would 'Spies' been able to spoil? Flying time over 50kms is a few minutes.

While there is no denying that Muricans have always displayed balls. Big Mofo balls is also going into Pok at over 7 locations across a 250 km space the same night, fuck shit up , kills dozens of PA regulars + upwards of 100 unwashed abduls and return home safely all with only drone support. While IAF was on high alert, nothing was done to spook the mission. Again, a near perfect textbook execution of what is essentially basic commando op. Ghataks too did a fantastic job too.

Yes. So we are in agreement. Has anyone ever doubted the infantry skills of our soldiers?

The primary conversations on this forum have to do with Poor understanding of SOF tasking which results in crap kit which results in outdated training. Its a COMMAND FAILURE.

Our troops have the same kit and capability as we had in the 1980s. its a fucking shame for a

Again chill, you and others are bitching about things you have no control over (none whatsoever). God knows we hope for a day when our boys have Gucci gear. All this bitching, comparing etc is getting tiring and ya'll are beginning to sound like ungrateful goats.

1) I can bitch all i want. I am the tax payer. My Army works for me
2) I am under no compulsion to be grateful to anyone.
3) This is a military forum for mental masturbation, it is not for changing anything. But by calling a spade a spade young kids will (hopefylly) not grow up with the delusions that have suddenly gripped our country.

 

[AZTEC]

even if we continue with this line of thought, with the rise in PCMB UK has become irrelevant in global scenario over the years unable to sustain their costs.

with 2.75 lakh personnel, brits cannot enforce any military costs upon an adversary on their own. To manage their rising costs, they are even contemplating disbanding their tank regiments.

In this case is PCMB a reliable way to measure anything? It is a statistic which has little real world value as such.

I am not even gonna talk about Singapore military , they are irrelevant in any global military scenario.

What you’re saying is true. But that’s not my point.

I am just trying to explain why SAS is much better equipped than Para SF. Nothing else. And PCMB is a good way of doing that.

 

[rkhanna]

There are many nations with low PCMB than ours but with well equipped SFs.Then there are we and our neighbours with shitty equipment. Atleast in SF modernization India-Paki bhai bhai

As some members are proof. ALOT of things in life are a result of education or lack thereof. The same goes to the higher echelons of our Military Command.

Why are we when China sticks its finger up are we scrambling to equip our BMPs with Night fighting capability?

 

[ezsasa]

Rather than PCMB it is resource allocation which is the root cause. SF is not given top priority in our country, since we don't know how to use them to achieve strategic goals. Till that is not fixed, the sorry situation will continue.

GoI don’t how to use them for strategic goals, because as a nation there are no strategic goals as such which involves military.

our strategic goal is defensive , so equipment is for defensive.

The fact that we are the same conversation at DFI since it’s inception should tell us that we are discussing the wrong aspect of this issue.

My argument is very simple, quality of defence equipment flows from the defence doctrine itself. If equipment is found lacking, issue is not with bureaucracy it is to do with the policy itself. If there has to be a debate on this topic, it has to be at the policy level.
Hardly even the retired jernails who have an opinion on everything, hardly ever discuss this angle in public. this discussion should involve non-military people as well.

 

[rkhanna]

My argument is very simple, quality of defence equipment flows from the defence doctrine itself. If equipment is found lacking, issue is not with bureaucracy it is to do with the policy itself. If there has to be a debate on this topic, it has to be at the policy level.
Hardly even the retried jernails who have an opinion on everything, hardly ever discuss this angle in public.

ditto. have been saying this from day one. ALOT of that lands at the Military's doorstep as well. We used to have a Special Forces Regiment in the 90s for a brief moment in time which would have given them the bandwidth to evolve tactics and kit for emerging threats. (like TACDE does for the AF). What happened?

 

[Killbot]

Rather than PCMB it is resource allocation which is the root cause. SF is not given top priority in our country, since we don't know how to use them to achieve strategic goals. Till that is not fixed, the sorry situation will continue.

I hoped that would change with AFSOD. (IDS gets its own budget afaik)

 

[Killbot]

ditto. have been saying this from day one. ALOT of that lands at the Military's doorstep as well. We used to have a Special Forces Regiment in the 90s for a brief moment in time which would have given them the bandwidth to evolve tactics and kit for emerging threats. (like TACDE does for the AF). What happened?

Which special forces regiment? Sounds really similar to CAG (Delta).
Also, the first thing we should do is remove SF from infantry chain of command.

Aquestion..
How important is airborne training for SF
please elaborate..
@rkhanna @ALBY

 

[AZTEC]

Which special forces regiment? Sounds really similar to CAG (Delta).
Also, the first thing we should do is remove SF from infantry chain of command.

Aquestion..
How important is airborne training for SF
please elaborate..
@rkhanna @ALBY

Please read the following excerpt from an article by Lt Gen Prakash Katoch.

“General BC Joshi was the first Army Chief who took note of the focus required to alleviate the Special Forces concept – in line with the transnational threats and need for employing Special Forces at strategic level. Under him the, Army Special Forces Regiment was raised. The then three Parachute (Commando) units were renamed 1 Special Forces, 9 Special Forces and 10 Special Forces and a Headquarters Special Forces was raised. The appointment of Chief of Army Staff was designated the Honorary Colonel of the Army Special Forces Regiment; General BC Joshi donning the mantle of the first Honorary Colonel of the Army Special Forces Regiment. Lt Gen Vijay Oberoi (who eventually retired as Vice Chief of Army Staff) was named the Colonel of the Special Forces Regiment. But then tragedy stuck and General BC Joshi died while in office. His successor, General Shankar Roychowdhury, in a moment of utter weakness, succumbed to pressures from retired Paratrooper Generals and disbanded the Special Forces Regiment.”

Source:

Whither Special Forces? - Indian Defence Review

While discussing a monogram on Special Forces at a prominent Think Tank in New Delhi last month (December 2013), one of the discussants (a former Brigadier) opined that the “entire Parachute Regiment should form part of the

www.indiandefencereview.com

 

[ezsasa]

ditto. have been saying this from day one. ALOT of that lands at the Military's doorstep as well. We used to have a Special Forces Regiment in the 90s for a brief moment in time which would have given them the bandwidth to evolve tactics and kit for emerging threats. (like TACDE does for the AF). What happened?

thanks for the ditto....

I would argue, forget the past.

even if we take 2020 as year zero, at least by 2030, is a there a strategic military goal in sight which justifies the spending of 10 times on a SF regiment than it is being done today?

military goal has to be external oriented, internal orientation will have the same fate as the example you have given.

 

[rkhanna]

thanks for the ditto....

I would argue, forget the past.

even if we take 2020 as year zero, at least by 2030, is a there a strategic military goal in sight which justifies the spending of 10 times on a SF regiment than it is being done today?

military goal has to be external oriented, internal orientation will have the same fate as the example you have given.

*Devils advocate* Well just as a point the Koreans have an internal focused military and they face a similar active threat as us. So do the Japanese.

Yet they went about building their militaries with a bit more order.

 

[rkhanna]

Which special forces regiment? Sounds really similar to CAG (Delta).
Also, the first thing we should do is remove SF from infantry chain of command.

Aquestion..
How important is airborne training for SF
please elaborate..
@rkhanna @ALBY

Airborne training is very important to SOF. It provides a wide variety of flexibility of insertion. But is extremely dangerous so is a last resort. HAHO and HALO are two very different techniques and with new tech in jump gear and rigs and gps navigation provides a very critical capability.

That being said know that Airborne forces like the Paras have a different mandate with that capability.

But being able to parachute is an extremely critical capability that it would raise an eyebrow if a unit didn't. The same way almost all land units now have a basic waterborne capability as well.

 

[ezsasa]

*Devils advocate* Well just as a point the Koreans have an internal focused military and they face a similar active threat as us. So do the Japanese.

Yet they went about building their militaries with a bit more order.

Yup, in the case of South Korea, it’s the policy that has driven their focus on military because officially they are still in state of war for decades, the Korean War never really ended. And this war was part of the Cold War era along with Vietnam war where US wanted to halt the spread of communism into rest of Asia.

Japan too falls under the same category.

both these militaries have active US influence too..

which again brings back to my original point that the nations strategic goal drives the direction of military equipment and tactics.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Question we need to ask why are there 9 SF battalions to 5 Para battalions.

Only armed forces in the world, where Regular Paratrooper battalion is lesser that Para Special Forces battalion!!

 

[operatorgrumby]

rkhannaAs Lt.Gen P.C Katoch have said in his article, the Army needs to end the stigma of Airborne Infantry is same as SF...

So how exactly is their any difference between them ???

If army some how fortunately considers to re-raise The Army Special Forces Regiment then how can they implement it without hurting the ego of Airborne Unit's Officer of not getting SF recognition & allowance etc....or even better how these wannabe SFs can be stopped anyhow ???

 

[rkhanna]

rkhannaAs Lt.Gen P.C Katoch have said in his article, the Army needs to end the stigma of Airborne Infantry is same as SF...

So how exactly is their any difference between them ???

If army some how fortunately considers to re-raise The Army Special Forces Regiment then how can they implement it without hurting the ego of Airborne Unit's Officer of not getting SF recognition & allowance etc....or even better how these wannabe SFs can be stopped anyhow ???

It internal politics and 'paltan ki shaan' the Paras are the most decorated regiment in the IA. You take away the very units that got them those battle honors jn the last 30 years and you have a power dynamic change.

The Paras are airborne light infantry - i.e a commando formation as such on its own. But it's trained top operate in company and battalion size manoeuvres. They pursue tactical battlefield objectives.

SF is supposed to operate in small units pursing nationa security objectives.

They believe that para and SF is the same as all battalions (SF or otherwise) run their own selection and probation etc. They don't believe that SF training is any different from theirs and that deployment is also the same.

There-in lies the problem. If they are right then our SF are SF for name's sake and should revert back to paracdo tag for all battions. Including reg para

If they are wrong then the egos of affsars js more important than building capability.

Either way we are screwed. Because eitherway it means Army HQ, MOD and National security council is living in la la land and they are far removed from the realties of life on the ground.

As always we will keep protecting our borders and poor villagers (primarily) will continue to die to get out victorious through sheer grit and stubborness and we will continue going sare jahan se accha

 

[Vishalreddy3]

SFF with Dalai Lama

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Future ballistic helmet