Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Unknowncommando 2]

 

[Lupus]

NSG, as always, lead the way.

 

[abingdonboy]

Yeah, too many mismatching uniforms even on a single guy ! Would make a fashion show owner proud I dare say . I can even spot the old 90’s camo. SOD off to a bad start

firstly it’s not confirmed this was SOD, there’s no way of knowing who they were.

But IF they were SOD then the opposite is true- this is a GREAT start, lack of uniformity aside. This was the display of many firsts from an Indian SF (NSG not included in this discussion) in a frontline op. My original post from back in Feb covers this more but just a short recap- an SF team (again not including NSG) with an integrated assault dog element (they were clearly an assault dog as it was wearing a high grade muzzle), flashbangs, chem lights (may seem trivial but this reflects a certain standard of training and how the top CT units in the world operate), all wore comns and all had secondary firearms. On top of that they all had fully packed plate carriers and ballistic eyewear.


the lack of uniformity with their dress can be forgiven for a while b if this isn’t addressed in the next 2 years I’ll be critical of them.

Do not laugh on development pangs.......

First of all the real SFs have no uniform.... Have you ever seen British SAS working as deminers. Engineers, Security agents. Contactors. Teachers, Priests and Traders. They have no uniforms outside their unit limits.

The French Special Forces including their ex operatives and ex Legionaries were responsible for at least a hundred coups in Africa and the third world, controlling and guarding all sorts of mines, Diamond areas, Cobalt, Uranium and Copper mines, drug running, gun running in dozens of Countries. More than half of Mercenaries operating the world-over are SF or Ex operative controlled by intelligence agencies.

Do you know that all major teams of LeT and JM are led by Pakistani SSG men? I can say that with a lot of confidence......

Our SF guys go on UN Missions with their full accouterment and badges being flashed all over and a Maroon cap seen from far off. Still, they want to shed the Army ..... No way.....

Most of the guys here are stuck with movie type projection needs to massage their macho needs. Gizmos, weapons, and uniform - that does not make SF...

I respect your experience and opinion but I’m sorry you are looking at this with a very insular perspective and don’t seem to have any understanding of how the rest of the top SF units have evolved in the last 20 years. Absolutely not will you find any top SF unit (American, British, French or even Russian these days) caught without their “gucci gear” including their multi-cam uniforms and this is just as true on operations. Look at the dress of the SAS advisor who was in Kenya during the mall attack a few years back. He had a few moments to prepare and he still turned up in the standard top of the line gear you’d see anywhere in these serious units go.

I can provide you 100s of images to prove this point. There’s NO excuse for the kind of standards (or lack thereof) that is seen by Indian security forces on operations ON INDIAN SOIL no less. This is damning of the kind of standards and accountability their command structure imposes.

Huge difference between the gear of 9para and 10 para.

Better i dont say more.

that COs are sending their teams on operational deployment in this state says it all.

View attachment 47139View attachment 47141View attachment 47142

NSG, as always, lead the way.

Damn right! And what this article doesn’t say is that the NSG has the premier K9 training facilities in that part of the world. Their assault dogs are something else, they can be directed remotely by their handlers via a radio and video link fitted to their K9s. That a poorly trained (I’m assuming by the army’s own school) German Shepard put off the army using them more extensively in CT roles says it all. Instead of working on the training and employment they resigned themselves to it being too difficult and continued with the status quo.

Let’s just forget that the West’s CT units learnt about 20 years ago during OIF of the value of K9s and subsequently developed world class training facilities to churn out the best MWDs around. No the army has only been fighting this fight for about 40 years. Once again it boggles the mind how status quo the Indian mil is and how few innovations in equipment or tactics have emerged out of them. There’s something structurally deficient here as when you listen to most Western mil leadership they are always talking about learning lessons from the battlefield and trying to fix shortcomings. IA has been fighting the same way in JK for decades now with pretty much identical tactics and equipment. They couldn’t even figure out armoured vehicles and ballistic shields would probably be a good idea.


NSG is demeaned by the armed forces becuase they are showing up the bloated and glacially paced military in terms of innovation and responsiveness. These officers are taught in 100 year old academies how to fight wars of the 1700s and scoff at the NSG as though the army doesn’t continually botch these very simple missions. They then say they can’t call in the NSG because the NSG doesn’t have enough “combat experience”![/QUOTE]

 

[Knowitall]

firstly it’s not confirmed this was SOD, there’s no way of knowing who they were.

But IF they were SOD then the opposite is true- this is a GREAT start, lack of uniformity aside. This was the display of many firsts from an Indian SF (NSG not included in this discussion) in a frontline op. My original post from back in Feb covers this more but just a short recap- an SF team (again not including NSG) with an integrated assault dog element (they were clearly an assault dog as it was wearing a high grade muzzle), flashbangs, chem lights (may seem trivial but this reflects a certain standard of training and how the top CT units in the world operate), all wore comns and all had secondary firearms. On top of that they all had fully packed plate carriers and ballistic eyewear.


the lack of uniformity with their dress can be forgiven for a while b if this isn’t addressed in the next 2 years I’ll be critical of them.




I respect your experience and opinion but I’m sorry you are looking at this with a very insular perspective and don’t seem to have any understanding of how the rest of the top SF units have evolved in the last 20 years. Absolutely not will you find any top SF unit (American, British, French or even Russian these days) caught without their “gucci gear” including their multi-cam uniforms and this is just as true on operations. Look at the dress of the SAS advisor who was in Kenya during the mall attack a few years back. He had a few moments to prepare and he still turned up in the standard top of the line gear you’d see anywhere in these serious units go.

I can provide you 100s of images to prove this point. There’s NO excuse for the kind of standards (or lack thereof) that is seen by Indian security forces on operations ON INDIAN SOIL no less. This is damning of the kind of standards and accountability their command structure imposes.



that COs are sending their teams on operational deployment in this state says it all.


Damn right! And what this article doesn’t say is that the NSG has the premier K9 training facilities in that part of the world. Their assault dogs are something else, they can be directed remotely by their handlers via a radio and video link fitted to their K9s. That a poorly trained (I’m assuming by the army’s own school) German Shepard put off the army using them more extensively in CT roles says it all. Instead of working on the training and employment they resigned themselves to it being too difficult and continued with the status quo.

Let’s just forget that the West’s CT units learnt about 20 years ago during OIF of the value of K9s and subsequently developed world class training facilities to churn out the best MWDs around. No the army has only been fighting this fight for about 40 years. Once again it boggles the mind how status quo the Indian mil is and how few innovations in equipment or tactics have emerged out of them. There’s something structurally deficient here as when you listen to most Western mil leadership they are always talking about learning lessons from the battlefield and trying to fix shortcomings. IA has been fighting the same way in JK for decades now with pretty much identical tactics and equipment. They couldn’t even figure out armoured vehicles and ballistic shields would probably be a good idea.


NSG is demeaned by the armed forces becuase they are showing up the bloated and glacially paced military in terms of innovation and responsiveness. These officers are taught in 100 year old academies how to fight wars of the 1700s and scoff at the NSG as though the army doesn’t continually botch these very simple missions. They then say they can’t call in the NSG because the NSG doesn’t have enough “combat experience”!

I think you are talking about this guy.

I heard about this story too. He only had a few minutes to prepare and was off duty actually.

He later on went ahead and killed two terrorists by himself while the remaining two were killed by Kenyan troops.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

 

[Bhadra]

I respect your experience and opinion but I’m sorry you are looking at this with a very insular perspective and don’t seem to have any understanding of how the rest of the top SF units have evolved in the last 20 years. Absolutely not will you find any top SF unit (American, British, French or even Russian these days) caught without their “gucci gear” including their multi-cam uniforms and this is just as true on operations. Look at the dress of the SAS advisor who was in Kenya during the mall attack a few years back. He had a few moments to prepare and he still turned up in the standard top of the line gear you’d see anywhere in these serious units go.

I can provide you 100s of images to prove this point. There’s NO excuse for the kind of standards (or lack thereof) that is seen by Indian security forces on operations ON INDIAN SOIL no less. themselves to it being too difficult and continued with the status quo.

”!

The only thing I laid stress on was SF working in multiple different environments not necessarily needing army type fatigue for all assignments. They do need top-class equipment and resources, nevertheless to fulfill their assignments. If you operated in J&K for a good enough time and came across various kills/apprehensions, one can certainly make out an SSG guy amongst many of them lying in front of you for not being in his black dress but the quality of resistance offered. He has no Gucci and special equipment but Salwar Kameez like other terrorists.

The SF deserves the very best in all respect that the system can offer it to them. To my understanding and observation so far, I have seen all top commanders according top priorities and resources at their disposal and authority. Blaming Army leadership for other security structural deficiencies and shortcomings is absolutely unfair. Whatever is not at their disposal can not be demanded as a function of command. Then the party line emerging from there
of dumping the general (or Colonel) or throwing him down from the mission flight seems to have become a behavioral trend, No one will accept that.

Bungling along is applicable either to no one or all of us right from our inceptions and our SFs can not claim to be an exception to that. I do not wish to go further into that.

All of us need good equipment, good weapons and good ammunition - everyone whose life is on the line of fire. All of us need our Lolabs and freedom of operations. Every officer and soldier down there has all potential to be an SF operative. What is done to that potential depends on his unit who are as much constrained as you feel or rather far -far greater bound in chains.

But that is what the country (those who matter) thinks is good enough to provide the state the security that it needs. It is unfortunate the manpower in India is very cheap. If it needs more they must cater for additionalities. All government machinery functions on that rationality. If the govt thinks that you need to double up as a Keran rebel deep inside Myanmar - they will give you wherewithal.

Within a system all parts tend to stress on their individual importance but the driver of the system has to go by system approach theory.

Even if SF becomes part of another machine still it will remain a part - it can not become a whole.

 

[ManhattanProject]

firstly it’s not confirmed this was SOD, there’s no way of knowing who they were.

But IF they were SOD then the opposite is true- this is a GREAT start, lack of uniformity aside. This was the display of many firsts from an Indian SF (NSG not included in this discussion) in a frontline op. My original post from back in Feb covers this more but just a short recap- an SF team (again not including NSG) with an integrated assault dog element (they were clearly an assault dog as it was wearing a high grade muzzle), flashbangs, chem lights (may seem trivial but this reflects a certain standard of training and how the top CT units in the world operate), all wore comns and all had secondary firearms. On top of that they all had fully packed plate carriers and ballistic eyewear.


the lack of uniformity with their dress can be forgiven for a while b if this isn’t addressed in the next 2 years I’ll be critical of them.




I respect your experience and opinion but I’m sorry you are looking at this with a very insular perspective and don’t seem to have any understanding of how the rest of the top SF units have evolved in the last 20 years. Absolutely not will you find any top SF unit (American, British, French or even Russian these days) caught without their “gucci gear” including their multi-cam uniforms and this is just as true on operations. Look at the dress of the SAS advisor who was in Kenya during the mall attack a few years back. He had a few moments to prepare and he still turned up in the standard top of the line gear you’d see anywhere in these serious units go.

I can provide you 100s of images to prove this point. There’s NO excuse for the kind of standards (or lack thereof) that is seen by Indian security forces on operations ON INDIAN SOIL no less. This is damning of the kind of standards and accountability their command structure imposes.



that COs are sending their teams on operational deployment in this state says it all.


Damn right! And what this article doesn’t say is that the NSG has the premier K9 training facilities in that part of the world. Their assault dogs are something else, they can be directed remotely by their handlers via a radio and video link fitted to their K9s. That a poorly trained (I’m assuming by the army’s own school) German Shepard put off the army using them more extensively in CT roles says it all. Instead of working on the training and employment they resigned themselves to it being too difficult and continued with the status quo.

Let’s just forget that the West’s CT units learnt about 20 years ago during OIF of the value of K9s and subsequently developed world class training facilities to churn out the best MWDs around. No the army has only been fighting this fight for about 40 years. Once again it boggles the mind how status quo the Indian mil is and how few innovations in equipment or tactics have emerged out of them. There’s something structurally deficient here as when you listen to most Western mil leadership they are always talking about learning lessons from the battlefield and trying to fix shortcomings. IA has been fighting the same way in JK for decades now with pretty much identical tactics and equipment. They couldn’t even figure out armoured vehicles and ballistic shields would probably be a good idea.


NSG is demeaned by the armed forces becuase they are showing up the bloated and glacially paced military in terms of innovation and responsiveness. These officers are taught in 100 year old academies how to fight wars of the 1700s and scoff at the NSG as though the army doesn’t continually botch these very simple missions. They then say they can’t call in the NSG because the NSG doesn’t have enough “combat experience”!

[/QUOTE]
they all had dump pouches, and most of the unit standardized on the m4. They also had peq2 lasers on all their rifles.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Understatement comes from understanding efficacy of SOF in the 21st century. please bear with me.



few points - You are refering to war fighting in the 20th century and previously you mentioned africa. Understand that those we for a lack of a better term Bush wars - Revolution, FID, Long Range Raiders. ( and this is a very small component of SOF tasking) - these troops did not operate out of a base or a FAB. They fought/fight out of their vehicles being resupplied from time to time. they went with their "friendlies" lived with them off the land and moved like nomads. The bush wars are hot, humid, arid etc. After a few days there is no need for "uniform discipline". All troops down range for an extended period of time go native.

That being said - how these bush wars are now fought is also changing. Look at the kit of the recent ambushed and killed French and US SFGs in West Africa. The kit they carried was the same a DA unit flying out of the Green Zone in Baghdad would carry.

Circling back to our SOF in Kashmir - yes if the SOF operators had just emerged from a 10 day patrol and recon from the LOC or the mountains no issue. But this is a CASO. Even if the SOF units had come off the mountains (and not responsding/mobilizing out of the nearest base) there HAS TO BE A UTILITY TRUCK where they should kit up before transitioning from a LRRP to Urban Assault. Is there even a SF C&C (TOC) that is liasioning with the larger CASO Force? There is ZERO Excuse. CASO carrys significant mobile Military infrastructure with it - Coms, C&C, ISR, Heavy Ordanance, - Cant SOF requirements be part of the orbat? So far its only the bodies who are part of the ORBAT.



Forget the Americans - What about the Philipinos, Polish, Korans, South Africans, Brazilians - just to name a few.

Secondly - The Americans have evolved (proactive) for their requirement. fair enough. What have we done? NSG got a kick in their teeth so we reacted. Kargil we got a kick in the teeth we did pretty much nothing. 2 decades have passed since then - we got tavors , galils and kneepads - Where is our evolution for OUR needs?

PS- Spending time on SOFREP the growth in gear and tactics around shooting, communicating and optics is PROFOUND- this has nothing to do with US Tasking - this is basic. The Americans continue to do R&D into mountain warfare and Artic Warfare - we operate in worse conditions - what evolution has Parvat Ghatak come out in terms of better more improved kit - Are those instructors even consulted by DRDO/MOD/CDS etc etc?

What about medical kit? breaching Kit? Sniper School? Comms? - again nothing to do with US "Requirements" - this is basic.



Yes and no. and this is where we disagree

1. This logic that is the man not the machine has been touted by our officers (and some exist in my family) since the 70s to justify lack of kit (across the Army) and to play up the "Josh" of soldiers - its a complacent attitude of Chalta Hai - its the rank and file that makes up for the shortcomings of our officers trhough sheer grit and tenacity. - i call that stupidity.
2. today Training is driven by kit and tech - it is as applicable to the Corporate world as it is for the Military - no matter how good your soldiers are in infantry tasks the Enemy who can see you, hear you and shoot you first will ALWAYS win. Hell our shooting drills today also are straight out of the 80s- no evolution - Sure its changing but the Change has to be CONSTANT not periodical SPECIALLY in the SOF





Sorry - NSG is a Special Operations Force specialising in CT/HRT - any SAG would eat a PARA SF Squad for breakfast in their specific role. In Fact SF gains primarily from SF soldiers rotating back from NSG. (leaving CobRa CRPF out of this- i agree with you on that)

SF is an Army Unit - SOF covers a very large Gambit of Conventional, Asymetrical, Para-Military (policing) tasks. Each has a place and role and their quality in executing their specialization determines whether they are SOF or not.

The Same way HRT finds its way into the National Command Authority (USA) alongside JSOC so does the NSG alongside the Cabinet Secretariate.


Lastly SF/SOF etc the word "Special" comes from tasking - capability and skill is derived from there. not the other way around. If we continue using our SF as QRT and basic problem solvers (which should be under the purview of Ghatak and RR QRT) they will no longer be special. no matter how much ammo you give them to training in the kill houses or how many KMs you make them run.

Agreed. It feels like the SF’s view point is: are we equally/slightly better equipped than our dog-shit kebab eating goat humping neighbors next door. That’s all. Even after repeated exercises with international SF, no real improvement.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

 

[Hellfire]

Handwara Encounter
Don't know which battalion was present at this encounter
View attachment 46959View attachment 46960

4

 

[Hellfire]

Gotcha. Sir, There have been endless discussions here on this subject and it has been more or less concluded that our SF/SOFs are under utilized. But that's where we have all been stuck for some time now, so please allow me this opportunity to ask you something: Let's assume for a moment that PM/NSA/CDS tomorrow recognise this issue and agree to meet all of our special operations community's reasonable demands regarding revamping the organizational structure, buying them world class toys et al...and ask our SFs to come up with what they consider are the suitable roles for them then what do YOU think should be their answer ? Please list out what you consider to be most suitable taskings for them considering our Indian conditions

( If anyone else too wants to answer this question...pls don't be shy...aapka hi forum hai! )

PS. I want as many people as possible to answer this question.

The Primary Tasking of SFs i.e. 1,2,3,4,,9,10,11,12,21 should be & is:

1. Undertaking limited cross LC/IB operations.
2. Undertaking operations aimed at providing 'hunter-killer' teams transcending the various sectors of RR, which form the exoskeleton of the counter-insurgency grid.

In case of conventional operations -

3. Disruption of enemy's lines of communication and logistics.
4. Provision of tactical advantage to create an 'opening' in enemy defence for exploitation of gaps resulting thereof.
5. Undertaking autonomous deep strikes to disrupt enemy's war fighting support infrastructure

The problem in the conventional operations is that we do not have the airlift capacity that shall enable optimal utilization of the Special Forces in initial stages of any conflict, when they can be most disruptive in enemy defenses.

 

[Hellfire]

1. Take out Hafiz Saeed
2. Take out Da'wood
3. Infiltrate LeT HQ and plant bombs
4. Get back Kulbhushan Jadav
5. Afghanistan ops to ensure perpetrators of embassy's nd Gurudwara attacks are taken out
etc..etc..

1. You take out Hafiz Saeed, you indirectly cause a reorganization in the command structure, causing you to lose any asset if in place.
2. Same as above.
3. No point. That, a bomb attack, will only be a good PR exercise for them.
4. Not possible without compromising yourself internationally.
5. No comments.

 

[Hellfire]

but at least we should have regional aspirations and train a team under RA&W or SF a sort of kill team to target HVT we really need to start somewhere.

What makes you think that is not being done?

 

[Hellfire]

Our country do not have a national security doctrine. A doctrine which acts as a guide to our armed forces of their roles is sorely needed, once we have a clearly defined doctrine then we can start to look at our interests regionally and perhaps even globally, and to secure those interest we can project our instruments of national power in ways best suited to us, only then we can expect any change in deployment of our forces. The problem of under utilisation not only lies with special forces but to every other arm of our services. Once our political leadership gives a directive in form of a doctrine which is a part of our national vision and policy, then expect something. Till then special forces will keep themselves busy with Pakistan's minions.

Suggest a SF doctrine. Employment and utilization.

 

[Hellfire]

My plans are different.

JSOC...NSG..1st,9th,10th and 21 Para(and one unit as reserve on rotation)..Marcos and Garuds..100 each.

Special airborne brigade...rest of the para SF and some marcos and Garuds on deputation to the para units.

Airborne brigade...para regtts..and other airborne branches.

Ghatak brigade...special training school to be made for ghataks who should be permanent and only once they leave which can be an age limit should new guys be inducted.tis ghatak brigade to send troops to units in need on the loc for deployment.

All units to contribute and the best to be taken and equipped.I suggest the strenth to be a brigade strong only ie 3000 men approx.

Cobra and other commando units to send commandos on deputation.

You have a Brigade already in place. The administrative nucleus exists. But does the lift capacity?

 

[Hellfire]

Now, UR telling me "OPERATION APACHE" never happened?????
Can I show the proofs that it happened??
PLS, I never share any HOAX and Unverified sources!!

It happened. But it was never a 'company level' operation as most open source claim it to be. And it was neither the first, nor the last of its kind.

 

[Hellfire]

Yeah, too many mismatching uniforms even on a single guy ! Would make a fashion show owner proud I dare say . I can even spot the old 90’s camo. SOD off to a bad start

Why do you think that this multitude of camos is on display?

 

[Knowitall]

What makes you think that is not being done?

Many convicted terrorists who have played a major role in many terror incidents throughout India still roam free.

That makes me think it's not being done.

 

[Hellfire]

Many convicted terrorists who have played a major role in many terror incidents throughout India still roam free.

That makes me think it's not being done.

The problem is in political directives. But, if you are specifically talking about the existence of team or 'kill teams' to eliminate targets, those exists.

It was quite an interesting read thus far. The role of SFs was discussed with laments on this aspect, which you have highlighted.

Just want to say that SFs role is not in this particular aspect. Teams are assembled on as is needed basis with tasks in mind, they prepare, they undertake the task, and then they disperse.

No written orders exist for them. They go on innocuous boring Temporary Duties like checking exam papers, holding a QM Board of clothing etc.

 

[WARREN SS]

View attachment 47203

Why These Guys Don't Have Habit to Wear Ballistic Helmets