Indian Special Forces (archived)

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Sorry but I disagree wjth your generalization and rationalization

You are referencing bush wars where "imperial" powers send in troops non-cover to work wjth regional forces so thst they don't take a foriegn policy ding in the international arena.

In Iraq and astan jsoc units doing ISR and recon would be in civis - today almost all assault is done in full battle gear. Similar in Syria. Because the gear vmakes them better ans saves their lives

We have no comms, no isr, no flashbangs, no cutting tools, shitty body armour, old gen optics, no doctrine , no medical equipment, last century breaching equipment , no sniper program, no fixed aviation support assets - even special group has a major deficiency in equipment. Hell even uniforms is critical. Better camo ( done through research and data nalysis and feed back ) better material keeps you dry and more efficient . Suppressors increase battlefield awerness and communication . The list goes on and on and on. These are not mindless money wastign tactics. Expanding SF to 9-10 battalions just to throw bodies at a problem IS

Special operations and special equipment go hand in hand. The sheer evolution of socom and jsoc equipment post the Balkans has been mind-blowing. And yiu see this filter down to even the smaller militaries. Poland, Phillipines , korea, south africa , Brazil, just to name a few

Tactics are borne out of equipment because we all humans are limited by our physical ability which tech augments . With better tech comes better capability comes better training (over opfor)

How long did it take to induct sniper rifles along the loc outside of the shitty dragnovs and galils ?


Innovation is the name of the game. We don't innovate in tactics , not equipment. Our problem solving is retroactive not proactive.

The only one that js seeming to understand is NSG and that was because they were allowed to introspect post 26/11

In the military as longas objective is achieved we move on to the next. Conventional military has no idea or knowledge of SOF and continue to live in the "commando" era.

Ps as an FYI a number of soldiers in SF current and retired and even Marcos tend to agree. Majority of ones who don't tend to come from the conventional mil

Yes


And this is not Gucci gear.

This sort of gear brings troops back to base on two feet not body bags.

 

[MuzzleVelocity]

Wow the last few posts are like deja vu of the last 200 pages

 

[rkhanna]

Sorry, but I did not understate the importance of equipment and gear for SF forces as per the tasks and roles.

Understatement comes from understanding efficacy of SOF in the 21st century. please bear with me.

I was trying to paint a picture of SAS who were employed by the British Empire all over the world in places like Poland, Georgia, Persia, Iraq, and scores of other countries not in uniform but otherwise for military strategic tasks.

few points - You are refering to war fighting in the 20th century and previously you mentioned africa. Understand that those we for a lack of a better term Bush wars - Revolution, FID, Long Range Raiders. ( and this is a very small component of SOF tasking) - these troops did not operate out of a base or a FAB. They fought/fight out of their vehicles being resupplied from time to time. they went with their "friendlies" lived with them off the land and moved like nomads. The bush wars are hot, humid, arid etc. After a few days there is no need for "uniform discipline". All troops down range for an extended period of time go native.

That being said - how these bush wars are now fought is also changing. Look at the kit of the recent ambushed and killed French and US SFGs in West Africa. The kit they carried was the same a DA unit flying out of the Green Zone in Baghdad would carry.

Circling back to our SOF in Kashmir - yes if the SOF operators had just emerged from a 10 day patrol and recon from the LOC or the mountains no issue. But this is a CASO. Even if the SOF units had come off the mountains (and not responsding/mobilizing out of the nearest base) there HAS TO BE A UTILITY TRUCK where they should kit up before transitioning from a LRRP to Urban Assault. Is there even a SF C&C (TOC) that is liasioning with the larger CASO Force? There is ZERO Excuse. CASO carrys significant mobile Military infrastructure with it - Coms, C&C, ISR, Heavy Ordanance, - Cant SOF requirements be part of the orbat? So far its only the bodies who are part of the ORBAT.

Moden SF units like those of USA are geared up as per US interests / role / task requirements which can vary from conventional military requirements like those in Iraq or Afghanistan to operations against contras or drug lords in Latin America,

Forget the Americans - What about the Philipinos, Polish, Korans, South Africans, Brazilians - just to name a few.

Secondly - The Americans have evolved (proactive) for their requirement. fair enough. What have we done? NSG got a kick in their teeth so we reacted. Kargil we got a kick in the teeth we did pretty much nothing. 2 decades have passed since then - we got tavors , galils and kneepads - Where is our evolution for OUR needs?

PS- Spending time on SOFREP the growth in gear and tactics around shooting, communicating and optics is PROFOUND- this has nothing to do with US Tasking - this is basic. The Americans continue to do R&D into mountain warfare and Artic Warfare - we operate in worse conditions - what evolution has Parvat Ghatak come out in terms of better more improved kit - Are those instructors even consulted by DRDO/MOD/CDS etc etc?

What about medical kit? breaching Kit? Sniper School? Comms? - again nothing to do with US "Requirements" - this is basic.

I did not mean that SFs do need equipment, I only said gear and gadgets do not make SF.

Yes and no. and this is where we disagree

1. This logic that is the man not the machine has been touted by our officers (and some exist in my family) since the 70s to justify lack of kit (across the Army) and to play up the "Josh" of soldiers - its a complacent attitude of Chalta Hai - its the rank and file that makes up for the shortcomings of our officers trhough sheer grit and tenacity. - i call that stupidity.
2. today Training is driven by kit and tech - it is as applicable to the Corporate world as it is for the Military - no matter how good your soldiers are in infantry tasks the Enemy who can see you, hear you and shoot you first will ALWAYS win. Hell our shooting drills today also are straight out of the 80s- no evolution - Sure its changing but the Change has to be CONSTANT not periodical SPECIALLY in the SOF

No amount of gear will ever make NSG or CRPF as SF. As it is the "Guard" role does not call for the employment of SFs.

Sorry - NSG is a Special Operations Force specialising in CT/HRT - any SAG would eat a PARA SF Squad for breakfast in their specific role. In Fact SF gains primarily from SF soldiers rotating back from NSG. (leaving CobRa CRPF out of this- i agree with you on that)

SF is an Army Unit - SOF covers a very large Gambit of Conventional, Asymetrical, Para-Military (policing) tasks. Each has a place and role and their quality in executing their specialization determines whether they are SOF or not.

The Same way HRT finds its way into the National Command Authority (USA) alongside JSOC so does the NSG alongside the Cabinet Secretariate.


Lastly SF/SOF etc the word "Special" comes from tasking - capability and skill is derived from there. not the other way around. If we continue using our SF as QRT and basic problem solvers (which should be under the purview of Ghatak and RR QRT) they will no longer be special. no matter how much ammo you give them to training in the kill houses or how many KMs you make them run.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Understatement comes from understanding efficacy of SOF in the 21st century. please bear with me.



few points - You are refering to war fighting in the 20th century and previously you mentioned africa. Understand that those we for a lack of a better term Bush wars - Revolution, FID, Long Range Raiders. ( and this is a very small component of SOF tasking) - these troops did not operate out of a base or a FAB. They fought/fight out of their vehicles being resupplied from time to time. they went with their "friendlies" lived with them off the land and moved like nomads. The bush wars are hot, humid, arid etc. After a few days there is no need for "uniform discipline". All troops down range for an extended period of time go native.

That being said - how these bush wars are now fought is also changing. Look at the kit of the recent ambushed and killed French and US SFGs in West Africa. The kit they carried was the same a DA unit flying out of the Green Zone in Baghdad would carry.

Circling back to our SOF in Kashmir - yes if the SOF operators had just emerged from a 10 day patrol and recon from the LOC or the mountains no issue. But this is a CASO. Even if the SOF units had come off the mountains (and not responsding/mobilizing out of the nearest base) there HAS TO BE A UTILITY TRUCK where they should kit up before transitioning from a LRRP to Urban Assault. Is there even a SF C&C (TOC) that is liasioning with the larger CASO Force? There is ZERO Excuse. CASO carrys significant mobile Military infrastructure with it - Coms, C&C, ISR, Heavy Ordanance, - Cant SOF requirements be part of the orbat? So far its only the bodies who are part of the ORBAT.



Forget the Americans - What about the Philipinos, Polish, Korans, South Africans, Brazilians - just to name a few.

Secondly - The Americans have evolved (proactive) for their requirement. fair enough. What have we done? NSG got a kick in their teeth so we reacted. Kargil we got a kick in the teeth we did pretty much nothing. 2 decades have passed since then - we got tavors , galils and kneepads - Where is our evolution for OUR needs?

PS- Spending time on SOFREP the growth in gear and tactics around shooting, communicating and optics is PROFOUND- this has nothing to do with US Tasking - this is basic. The Americans continue to do R&D into mountain warfare and Artic Warfare - we operate in worse conditions - what evolution has Parvat Ghatak come out in terms of better more improved kit - Are those instructors even consulted by DRDO/MOD/CDS etc etc?

What about medical kit? breaching Kit? Sniper School? Comms? - again nothing to do with US "Requirements" - this is basic.



Yes and no. and this is where we disagree

1. This logic that is the man not the machine has been touted by our officers (and some exist in my family) since the 70s to justify lack of kit (across the Army) and to play up the "Josh" of soldiers - its a complacent attitude of Chalta Hai - its the rank and file that makes up for the shortcomings of our officers trhough sheer grit and tenacity. - i call that stupidity.
2. today Training is driven by kit and tech - it is as applicable to the Corporate world as it is for the Military - no matter how good your soldiers are in infantry tasks the Enemy who can see you, hear you and shoot you first will ALWAYS win. Hell our shooting drills today also are straight out of the 80s- no evolution - Sure its changing but the Change has to be CONSTANT not periodical SPECIALLY in the SOF





Sorry - NSG is a Special Operations Force specialising in CT/HRT - any SAG would eat a PARA SF Squad for breakfast in their specific role. In Fact SF gains primarily from SF soldiers rotating back from NSG. (leaving CobRa CRPF out of this- i agree with you on that)

SF is an Army Unit - SOF covers a very large Gambit of Conventional, Asymetrical, Para-Military (policing) tasks. Each has a place and role and their quality in executing their specialization determines whether they are SOF or not.

The Same way HRT finds its way into the National Command Authority (USA) alongside JSOC so does the NSG alongside the Cabinet Secretariate.


Lastly SF/SOF etc the word "Special" comes from tasking - capability and skill is derived from there. not the other way around. If we continue using our SF as QRT and basic problem solvers (which should be under the purview of Ghatak and RR QRT) they will no longer be special. no matter how much ammo you give them to training in the kill houses or how many KMs you make them run.

Very well put. And if this is the attitude and belief still held by the higher echelons of the Army, then I seriously doubt even the advent of this SOD or whatever is gonna turn the situation around.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Wow the last few posts are like deja vu of the last 200 pages

Because no changes can be seen happening on the ground.

 

[RedDevil]

SF from Nagrota Encounter
Over a half dozen camo patterns

What is it with the force using high cuts and patka both?

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

What is it with the force using high cuts and patka both?

PATKAs are getting replaced by EXFIL & MKU/VIPER P2 ACH. Tonbo is selling these EXFIL helmets with their Arjun-H thermal sights as a combo according to IA GSQR. Army didn't buy them separately. Plus replacement takes time in phases over the years. That's why you will see both till last one gets replaced.

 

[Bhadra]

Understatement comes from understanding efficacy of SOF in the 21st century. please bear with me.



few points - You are refering to war fighting in the 20th century and previously you mentioned africa. Understand that those we for a lack of a better term Bush wars - Revolution, FID, Long Range Raiders. ( and this is a very small component of SOF tasking) - these troops did not operate out of a base or a FAB. They fought/fight out of their vehicles being resupplied from time to time. they went with their "friendlies" lived with them off the land and moved like nomads. The bush wars are hot, humid, arid etc. After a few days there is no need for "uniform discipline". All troops down range for an extended period of time go native.

That being said - how these bush wars are now fought is also changing. Look at the kit of the recent ambushed and killed French and US SFGs in West Africa. The kit they carried was the same a DA unit flying out of the Green Zone in Baghdad would carry.

Circling back to our SOF in Kashmir - yes if the SOF operators had just emerged from a 10 day patrol and recon from the LOC or the mountains no issue. But this is a CASO. Even if the SOF units had come off the mountains (and not responsding/mobilizing out of the nearest base) there HAS TO BE A UTILITY TRUCK where they should kit up before transitioning from a LRRP to Urban Assault. Is there even a SF C&C (TOC) that is liasioning with the larger CASO Force? There is ZERO Excuse. CASO carrys significant mobile Military infrastructure with it - Coms, C&C, ISR, Heavy Ordanance, - Cant SOF requirements be part of the orbat? So far its only the bodies who are part of the ORBAT.



Forget the Americans - What about the Philipinos, Polish, Korans, South Africans, Brazilians - just to name a few.

Secondly - The Americans have evolved (proactive) for their requirement. fair enough. What have we done? NSG got a kick in their teeth so we reacted. Kargil we got a kick in the teeth we did pretty much nothing. 2 decades have passed since then - we got tavors , galils and kneepads - Where is our evolution for OUR needs?

PS- Spending time on SOFREP the growth in gear and tactics around shooting, communicating and optics is PROFOUND- this has nothing to do with US Tasking - this is basic. The Americans continue to do R&D into mountain warfare and Artic Warfare - we operate in worse conditions - what evolution has Parvat Ghatak come out in terms of better more improved kit - Are those instructors even consulted by DRDO/MOD/CDS etc etc?

What about medical kit? breaching Kit? Sniper School? Comms? - again nothing to do with US "Requirements" - this is basic.



Yes and no. and this is where we disagree

1. This logic that is the man not the machine has been touted by our officers (and some exist in my family) since the 70s to justify lack of kit (across the Army) and to play up the "Josh" of soldiers - its a complacent attitude of Chalta Hai - its the rank and file that makes up for the shortcomings of our officers trhough sheer grit and tenacity. - i call that stupidity.
2. today Training is driven by kit and tech - it is as applicable to the Corporate world as it is for the Military - no matter how good your soldiers are in infantry tasks the Enemy who can see you, hear you and shoot you first will ALWAYS win. Hell our shooting drills today also are straight out of the 80s- no evolution - Sure its changing but the Change has to be CONSTANT not periodical SPECIALLY in the SOF





Sorry - NSG is a Special Operations Force specializing in CT/HRT - any SAG would eat a PARA SF Squad for breakfast in their specific role. In Fact SF gains primarily from SF soldiers rotating back from NSG. (leaving CobRa CRPF out of this- i agree with you on that)

SF is an Army Unit - SOF covers a very large Gambit of Conventional, Asymetrical, Para-Military (policing) tasks. Each has a place and role and their quality in executing their specialization determines whether they are SOF or not.

The Same way HRT finds its way into the National Command Authority (USA) alongside JSOC so does the NSG alongside the Cabinet Secretariate.


Lastly SF/SOF etc the word "Special" comes from tasking - capability and skill is derived from there. not the other way around. If we continue using our SF as QRT and basic problem solvers (which should be under the purview of Ghatak and RR QRT) they will no longer be special. no matter how much ammo you give them to training in the kill houses or how many KMs you make them run.

So far the theory is good ...

Please be kind enough to visualize a few fancy tasks for our SF / SOF etc that fits into the framework of the stated theory keeping in mind our security environment including emerging threats. How would IA or someone else justify keeping about a ten battalion SF force organized and kitted like modern SF units having their dedicated assets including air assets you named based on that as in independent organization? No other country you named is under so close and so intense internal and external threats as India is. So what is visualized under independent SOF / SF operations?

Well, if IA generals are incapable of understanding that I am sure there are many others from the Agra gang who would understand it well. So far I understand it, SF has their own guys even today at key levels to understand and implement things specific to SF.

So far NSG is concerned I still remember those frantic calls of 1983=84 when it was formed. Today, it is 2020? The taste of the pudding is in eating and not in the smell? It is still being smelt with nice metro fragrances. I consider it good only for a period of rest and recoup that our SF boys getting out of their other rigorous tenures or as you say some benefits of extra training to be used as SF operatives subsequently. Does that hold true for Police guys too?

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

10 PARA SF at Pulwama
2 Terrorists were killed

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

10 PARA SF
some old pics from valley ops

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Huge difference between the gear of 9para and 10 para.

Better i dont say more.

 

[Kchontha]

Which rifle is more powerful, para SF's tavor or terrorist's AKs?

 

[ManhattanProject]

Which rifle is more powerful, para SF's tavor or terrorist's AKs?

the ak fires a 7.62x39 mm round, it has a heavier bullet than the 5.56x45 that the tavor fires hence has more knockdown power. But the 5.56 coming out of that long barrel of the tavor is no slouch either. The strength of 5.56 is fragmentation which can be devastating. End of the day the 7.62 leaves bigger holes behind and has more knockdown power so the 7.62 might be more lethal in close ranges.
the 5.56 is smaller and faster so might go through armour better and has lesser recoil. Almost all elite sf units prefer 5.56 for close to mid range encounters so if its good for them its plenty leathal.

 

[Freezer Dam]

Huge difference between the gear of 9para and 10 para.

Better i dont say more.

We need constructive criticism...As per our Field Marshal Sir..A 'yes' man can do anything,can be become a field marshal even a minister but can not be a 'good leader'.May be we missed that type of leader now...What our SF need just basic modern gear..It's a necessity and now situation demand even more..Pls can anyone tell me what our DM doing in office..Pls DM sir,give them some basic..Thet will give us multiple benefit which we can not imagine..We lost 5 paras Recently if a simple nvg and a common set can save 2 brave hearts...As we find them in morning where operation was done on night, imagine wounded para just lying there for 6 hours without medical support..Again their was another team nearby but bloody we lack basic gear.

We can complain here,write 1000s of page but zero effect cause nobody care...For change we have to try to grab these post or influence them to do these...

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

View attachment 46927

Handwara Encounter
Don't know which battalion was present at this encounter

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

 

[piKacHHu]

These Jihadi piglets are suspected to be involved in Handwara encounter. Look at the camo they are wearing. It's a worrying sign that they could be easily disguised as Security Forces in Kashmir as we have plethora of camo patterns wore by jawans even in the same Unit, forget about different force (CRPF, JKP, SSB). SF should standardize camo, BPJs, & Helmet on war footing otherwise these piglets will continue to slip through cordons / posts and stage terror attacks.

 

[Brahmaputra Mail 2]

Handwara Encounter
Don't know which battalion was present at this encounter
View attachment 46959View attachment 46960

9 Para SF as per local media.