Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Suryavanshi]

@ArgonPrime @Sridhar_TN one more rubbish talk and both of you guys are saying bye bye to Special forces thread for ever

Damn mate u are a moderator too.

Congratulations.

There was a time I was begging for just one active moderator and now it's raining mods :bounce:

 

[Suryavanshi]

Getting back to topic at hand.

This is a loadout of a US army soldier.

The loadout seems like that of a overseas deployment mission, in our case we won't need this much since fight is in our own border.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

@All,

Apologies for intentionally or unintentionally lowering the sanctity of this thread due to the back and forth conversation with a particular individual in this forum. Did not mean to sour everyone’s day because of all the crazy talk between me and that individual.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

That’s not enough. Ban him

Never ask a mod or admin ban someone. They will decide.

 

[AbRaj]

Not dhruva I mean Rudra... my mistakes... I remember riding Dhruva fifteen years ago... I hope the door still do not fall down while in flight..

Still better than Soviet and French crap army is habitual of

 

[Suryavanshi]

https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/the-soldiers-heavy-load-1

Are comm sett provided only to leaders in a unit?

This is US marines tho and not SF

 

[Bhadra]

https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/the-soldiers-heavy-load-1

Are comm sett provided only to leaders in a unit?

This is US marines tho and not SF

Everthing vary ..

A US or European soldier is minimum 5 ft 8 inches going upto 6 and a half. weighing minimum 70 kg going upto 100. No US or European soldier walks an average of 10 km a day. Those distances are travelled by air helicopters, ships or by wheeled / tracked vehicles.

The first weight list is for administrative base to base move and not when assaulting or combat maneuvers which only the second list.

Compare that with a 5 ft 4 inches average Indian soldiers weighing 48 kgs upwards walking on average ten km on active service where a helicopter or a vehicle would be impossibility...

Like on LC if a soldiers does only two link patrols, or perimeters patrols a day and fetches his provisions and water from road head every day ten km would be bare minimum. If he embarks on LRP his 20 km are intact.

Carrying heavy weight is at the expense of combat efficiency .. He can carry but then he would be at best a beast of burden rather than an active soldier.

 

[WARREN SS]

https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/the-soldiers-heavy-load-1

Are comm sett provided only to leaders in a unit?

This is US marines tho and not SF

For this You have To shrunk Size Of The IA

US Marine Corps budget Is 30 billion $ That Is more for 1,82,000 Standing Force

While India Army budget Is 23 billion $ for 1.2 million

PS:At this Budget Russians Should be our Model for Modern combat soldiers

 

[hit&run]

This thread deserve high standards of language proficiency and etiquettes.

It is not a political thread or any other kind of easy going debates.

Please write as if military professionals are reading it.

Bans will be frequent in military related threads.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I disagree Size is not the biggest issue.
The generals and babus got their head buried in sand.
If size is the problem then it can be sorted out br proving equipment upgrade in Phases.

Ignorance is bliss for you then! Go and look and procurement for last 5 years. There has been rapid and step wise upgrade to all forces.

If you have 10 - 15 times the manpower as Western militaries and expect them to be equipped to the same standards then you have delusional thoughts!

 

[vampyrbladez]

That is valid argument in theory for Johney's head in air and for the purpose of shouting. But just give me a the plain figures in Km of the length of unsettled, undemarcated and disputed land border of those countries and compare that with same aspects of India. As also do have a look at the nature of terrain and importance of the border areas with respect to country's vital areas.



Can you also say so in respect of Indo - China and Indo - Pakistan borders, Indo Bangladesh and Indo Nepal border or for that matter Indo Myanmar border.

Can your Rambo SOF or Police theory of invincibility of "individual operators" apply for guarding our Norther borders and Indo Pak border... Cost wise that invincible "single Operator" equals to may be twenty other soldiers.... I do not guess what the the country will have. A judicious mix I suppose.....

Indian Baniyas are too miser and too wise not to think through that

1. In the army the teeth to tail ratio is rather woeful. The military has been used as an employment exchange than one where you have a precision tool for operation. You have Jawans being used as servants by Officers. I am from an Officer family and seen absolute wastage of manpower this way. This also affects morale.

Add to this convoluted procurement procedures where the average downtime is 7 years. Fast Track Procurement is launched for induction in 2 years and if lobby starts bitching then even that is delayed to 4 years.

The backbone of the Army is it's NCOs. Smart militaries like to give a career track to becoming an officer for them to infuse ground experience amongst the cadre. India has only begun that off late.

So Yes, we have massive surplus in non combat non essential personnell. This could be resolved by shifting some Officers (deputation/post tenure) and Jawans to Territorial Army to keep reserves ready. Simultaneously use IGNOU and industry placements and deputations to allow for civilian career progression.

2. You average SOF team is ideally self contained for days at a time. These 'Rambos' demonstrate peak human (male) performance for combat operations. Since special forces training is somewhat standardized across professional armies, what makes the difference is gear. Rather than using SOF as super infantry, they must be used as instruments of policy and military projection.

SOF often develop and refine gear in conjunction with industry. Until recently India had no private domestic military complex to speak of. We had a govt. dinosaur called OFB who had 0 initiative to innovate.

Based on images of SOF that have appears in 2019 and early 2020, the equipment is being standardized to western ones. We are following a similar strategy as with the Russians. Upgrading in rapid increments until your average operator has a loadout equivalent to contemporary ones.

However the bone of contention is to anticipate upcoming technologies and develop industry to meet the challenge. Curbing the nefarious activities of NGOs and activist scum who want to weaken our forces by legal intervention via schemes like women in combat roles, reservation in armed forces, syndication of military contracts, etc must also be seen to.

All in all I expect atleast 1-2 years before you see Indian SOF to be at par with Western ones.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Ignorance is bliss for you then! Go and look and procurement for last 5 years. There has been rapid and step wise upgrade to all forces.

If you have 10 - 15 times the manpower as Western militaries and expect them to be equipped to the same standards then you have delusional thoughts!

U don't need to trim off a huge chunk u will have to prioritize procurement based on theatres and terrain.
We can trim our standing army to 1 million exact and do just fine.
If the money used to buy expensive imports can be diverted for indigenous production then we can keep both the money and manpower intact within the nation
Think about it each Rafale we buy adds to the French ecnomy versus each Tejas we buy adds to the Indian Economy. The money circulates in our borders.

The money wasted on Sig and Ak guns could have been saved had the OFB gotten it's shit together.
The size isn't the biggest issue the management is.
What if tomorrow we cut down our size to 0.5 million and continue importing from outside and handing over shitty boots and rifles made in OFB.
Laying off competent men for the mistake made by babus isn't the right way in my opinion.

Think about It, was it the soldier's fault when they lost their life because of INSAS shitty boots and Equipment.
OFB should have been held accountable for the quality of the rifle they manufacture after the war.
But no lets lay off soldiers we clearly don't have enough money to properly arm them.

We can't give decent rifles in soldiers hand when they are alive but will put them in overpriced coffins when they are dead and that too which are imported from America.
Absolute disgusting!

 

[Bhadra]

1. In the army the teeth to tail ratio is rather woeful.

You have changed the entire issues and focus of the debate - the size of our forces required as per essential requirements and conditions on ground, Teeth to tail ratios depend on lots of factors but main consideration is always employment of the fighting forces = when, how and where ??

OK, you provide a 100 bed hospitals each at Tawang, Kibithu, Asphila, Manini, Subansiri, Tuting etc and we will demobilise five Field Ambulances.

Give one workshop each to repair vehicles there.
Give me contractors who will unfailing supply fresh milk, vegetables and meat there ?

Can you have one petroleum bauk each at those places to meet the Armies requirements during War ??

I think you have only heard about tooth to tail in books and discussions only - never ever applied your mind to it.

 

[Bhadra]

1. The military has been used as an employment exchange than one where you have a precision tool for operation.

Where have you got this idea from?
The only thing that has contracted post independence is Military Services when half of Army was demobilised . Rest all have expanded at least 100 times and other about a thousand times.
The police reserve Forces from ten odd battalions has become almost a thousand battalion force recruited based on 50 percent reservation including for officers .

The IAS which were hundred odds governing India at independence today stands at about five thousand cadre strength. So is every kind of all India Service cadres.
Look at the population of Government Babus, engineers, Works, Railways, Post and telegraphs, ports, govt transportation, useless uneducated teachers, universities, PSU, DPSU, DRDO, etc all bloated thousand times and recruit half of their personnel based on reservation.

Mil personnels are recruited under all India recruitable male ratios, state wise, region wise without reservation and any political considerations.

Those are the employment exchanges wherein you find half of Police inspectors in UP and Bihar as yadavas, a Meena sitting on every branch of govt administration and DRDO filled with half the reservationists.

Those are the mega employment exchanges, my dear, and not Army. Army does not provide any incentives of free loading to its recruited personnels. Rtire their personnels too early in life and fail to protect interest of their ex servicemen.

You guys have very irrational, prejudiced, ill informed ideas and do not dare open your eyes before shooting such profanity as Army being employment exchange.

 

[ALBY]

Guys please refrain from debating things outside the ambit of Special Forces.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Where have you got this idea from?
The only thing that has contracted post independence is Military Services when half of Army was demobilised . Rest all have expanded at least 100 times and other about a thousand times.
The police reserve Forces from ten odd battalions has become almost a thousand battalion force recruited based on 50 percent reservation including for officers .

The IAS which were hundred odds governing India at independence today stands at about five thousand cadre strength. So is every kind of all India Service cadres.
Look at the population of Government Babus, engineers, Works, Railways, Post and telegraphs, ports, govt transportation, useless uneducated teachers, universities, PSU, DPSU, DRDO, etc all bloated thousand times and recruit half of their personnel based on reservation.

Mil personnels are recruited under all India recruitable male ratios, state wise, region wise without reservation and any political considerations.

Those are the employment exchanges wherein you find half of Police inspectors in UP and Bihar as yadavas, a Meena sitting on every branch of govt administration and DRDO filled with half the reservationists.

Those are the mega employment exchanges, my dear, and not Army. Army does not provide any incentives of free loading to its recruited personnels. Rtire their personnels too early in life and fail to protect interest of their ex servicemen.

You guys have very irrational, prejudiced, ill informed ideas and do not dare open your eyes before shooting such profanity as Army being employment exchange.

Not like all other govt services in India. You are unable to see one CRPF platoon employed at the bungalow of each and every DM / DC, SP a District Judge, a gang of labour employed under petticoats of the wife of every Works deptt JE upwards. hoards of Khalasies employed by every railway officials at their home. Central govt employees drawing an attendants pay ( to employ a servant) but employing govt servants at their home by numbers.

IPS have even made legal to employ a score of CPF personnel at their houses in the name of security even after retirements.. There at least 3000 light vehicles of CPF attached in Delhi with retired IPS officers....

But why would you see that.... your point of focus is army officer who employ soldiers with dignity and humanity ..as functional necessity



I do not contest that. on the contrary that seems to be the reason for you being a frog in the well and having such strong prejudices. I suggest you open your eyes...

Your each and every point opens up a pandora's box and therefore needs a separate treatment...
That is very valid point. Army does provide enough chances for desrving soldiers and NCO to jump up the ladder but unlike CPF without resrvation and strictly based on merit.

Army has following entry schemes for soldiers and NCO to be officers -

ACC - written examination and SSB, four years training and direct commission.
RC - Called Regimental Commission.... based on interviews, SSB and short training to serve as officers upto age of officers retirement.
SL Commission - for educated and qualified NCO to perform specialist officers job, in store and logistics and engineering Service..
Engineering Diploma = for NCOs of Corps of Engineers to function as JEs.

Entry level of all soldiers now is 10th standards but most of them are 12th pass or graduates - all are free to appear for ACC which goes under subscribed each year.

Well, Army does not make their NCO the "Jabardast Officers" based on reservation like CPFs to fart on officers cots.

1. The discussion of manpower was in reference to SOF and strike units. SOF battalions are overmanned and used as super infantry. That is the job of non SF Paracommandos.

SF must be designed to be small, self sustainable and equipped to synergize as nodes in the recon/pathfinder/strike team jobs in wartime and for surgical strikes/intel during peacetime.

You have large units like the Mountain Corps raised against China who don't even have proper gear!

Vs

Contemporary equipment at LOC.

Thus we need to 'right size' units and move some to TA. Money saved on salaries and pensions by reducing recruitment can be used for desperately needed capital acquisition.

Alternatively indigenize equipment in bulk by ToT, Make in India and License Production and reduce costs, save money and repeat. There will still be some level of 'right sizing' , GoI is following this method.

2. Jawans are treated like servants in some Officers homes. Your average soldier doesn't sign up to wash clothes, cook vegetables and walk madam's dog. An expose was conducted recently and it led to a jawan killing himself out of fear of retribution.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sc...r-against-journalist-who-reported-on-sahayaks

We must have more field oriented roles for both Officers and Men and less DSOI and dinner parties for ungrateful leftist defence brats who abuse the same army which feeds them!

https://m.huffingtonpost.in/anjana-...tRvbiyhEJqah_5f3bF6ehja-mlzd8q5bj-osp9m6ywYWP

Civilian contractors can be used. In CSD there are civilian cashiers and even in DSOI/Army Clubs there are civilian waiters now. An orderly may be housekeeping staff for that very purpose.

I have a special level of hatred for CRPF/ paramilitary IAS officers who like to behave like pseudo Army Officers and want to avail same facilities but won't bother to go down and conduct ground operations. My recommendation to them is also the same.

IGNOU courses must be aggressively pushed to allow for lucrative post retirement civilian packages. Industry placements, MBA/PGD courses will also do well.

Pairing officers and men post retirement as military subcontractors in security services, think tanks, MiC will ensure that the culture shock of transitioning to civilian life is less.

3. Until recently there was no major push for more Officers from NCO ranks. There was a trickle under various entry schemes but no substantial numbers. India also faces a shortage of good quality, professional OLQ manpower to fill vacancies.

CDS has made it a major push but we need to branch out their training as well. Cyber command, space command, army weapons research centres, etc will also need Officers which it cannot spare. So some of the burden can be shared.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprint.in/defence/this-is-how-more-army-jawans-can-become-officers-under-new-bipin-rawat-plan/297490/?amp

 

[Bhadra]

1. The discussion of manpower was in reference to SOF and strike units. SOF battalions are overmanned and used as super infantry. That is the job of non SF Paracommandos.

SF must be designed to be small, self sustainable and equipped to synergize as nodes in the recon/pathfinder/strike team jobs in wartime and for surgical strikes/intel during peacetime.

Why did not you clear that in the very beginning. That would have saved me lot of nonsensical efforts, foul mouthings and a bad press coupled with a bad mood.

OK find me roles and tasks for SF comparable to SAS or American SFs and we will vigorously campaign for all moons in universe to be given to our SF. You are here in a situation where a huge elephant like those Security Guards in NSG tout themselves to be some super novas but fart in Delhi for 35 years without any operations.

So far. our SFs are indeed super infantry which remained under all false notions of six foot tall and 40 km run culture for a long time and no one has expanded their roles and task envelops. Tell all Army commanders what all you can do or intend to do and they will resize and re - equip the SFs accordingly. Where is the problem.


I ask you , how many intelligence led operations our SF have conducted under DGMI and how many Gaji Baba or Sayeed Salahuddin and LeT or JM heads have you brought from deep inside Pakistan by conducting SF ops?? Why did we not kill Prabhakaran in a month inspite of one lord Dik Shit sitting on the head of SFs ? Why did we had to loose so many brave men when someone was supplying weapons to Prabhakaran? Why have those idiots like Isac Chisi or Muivah or Khaplang , not even Hansi Tangkhuls been caught under their mistress's beds ?

So if you have no role and task to mount Osama kill operations why should any one give you resources. We live in an environment and a country where a small insignificant unit like TSD raised by VK Singh shakes all RAW and RIPES and a traitor journalist shakes establishment with Coup mongerings.

But things might be changing and be ready and have patience :

धीरे-धीरे रे मना, धीरे सब कुछ होय, माली सींचे सौ घड़ा, ॠतु आए फल होय।

Look for all improvement like true SF and shed strong prevalent tendency of Agra Unionism, empire building dreams and narrow constricted views. Show and prove you are the best rather than beating a drum about it.

Above all rise above remaining only SF .... Generalship involves much more than that.

 

[12arya]

An Indian Special Forces Hero’s Final Selfie
Shiv Aroor Apr 09 2020 6 26 pm

That’s Colonel Navjot Singh Bal. And that’s the last picture he took of himself on his phone yesterday. As you can see, he’s missing an arm. After a two year battle with cancer, he passed away this morning in Bengaluru.

You can imagine the sadness with which he gave up his full-time job last April. At the time he decided to, he was Commanding Officer of the Army’s elite 2 Para (Special Forces). This was only two months after the amputation of his right arm, cruelly necessitated by a malignant tumour in the limb. He would continue to lead his Special Forces unit for three more months, until the inexorably metastasizing had clearly spread to other parts of his body.

When he was finally persuaded to attend to his health, he had spent a full year under chemotherapy, while still formally leading the Special Forces unit.

A friend of the Colonel, an officer who was close to him, remembers the circumstances under which Bal gave up command.

“Knowing the man Bal was and his passion or dreams which he had before he took over 2 Para, he would have wanted to be their at the helm of affairs right upto his last breath. The only reason why Bal himself chose to give up the command, and this was in his own words in 2019, was because he knew that for his men it was essential to see their CO fighting fit and more so with both hands when wearing the uniform. A dangling sleeve was never his idea of his CO ever, and he didn’t want his troops to undergo the same. It makes a hell of a difference and speaks volumes of the greatness of that man who stepped down not for his health but silently for the pride of his men.“

Highly regarded as an officer who didn’t spend a day ruing his rapidly plummeting health, and the traumatic loss of an arm, Colonel Bal was known to keep fanatically fit right through his cancer treatment.

Major Sanjeev Malik, regimental medical officer (RMO) of the 2 Para SF recalls the time Colonel Bal’s cancer first came to light:

“During routine training in 2018, he observed slight swelling in his right arm after doing a marathon of chin ups. I thought that swelling could have developed due to exertion or haematoma. However, after radiological evaluation it was found to be some mass involving muscle of the right arm. And then commenced a chain of lengthy and tedious work up like biopsy and MRI. Finally, it was revealed that there is some rare type of cancer called telangiectactic osteosarcoma of the right arm. Unfortunately, it turned out to be an aggressive cancer with metastasis occurring at a fast rate and soon cancer spread to lungs, liver and heart. I salute to the indomitable spirit of Colonel Bal. He consistently highlighted it in his routine work despite aggressive spread of the the cancer.
Fighting all odds, once he ran 21 km half marathon in spite of cancer hampering his normal breathing and debunked common notion of defeatability. He was an absolute champion. A true Special Forces warrior. He exhibited optimism and cheerfulness round the clock. He is a perfect testimony of how a person with cancer should live his normal life,” says Major Malik.

“He was a rarest of the rare kind of officer. Had the privilege to serve alongside sometime back,” says Colonel Aman Anand, currently the Indian Army’s spokesperson.

Another Army comrade Amardeep Hooda recalls the conversation he had with Colonel Bal on the day it had been confirmed that the Special Forces man would be losing his right arm.

“Bal was surprising me over and over again with his calmness in discussing such a life changing happening of his life with such ease. Looking at him, I was reminded of the famous saying “You never know how strong You are till being strong is the only choice you have”. I remember him mentioning that he was aware it can be sooner than planned and that’s why he had already started practising doing his daily chorus with just his left hand, including taking a bath, tying his shoe laces, signing documents which he already was doing when I saw him in his office the other day… This guy was a fighter, the one that fights on his own terms backed by meticulous preparation and unflinching resolve. Nothing in this life could deter either him or his spirit from taking on the challenges that life throws at us,” says Hooda.

Colonel Bal was decorated with a Shaurya Chakra in 2008 for a 2007 anti-terror operation in Kashmir’s Lolab valley, an encounter in which two terrorists were killed by the officer and his buddy soldier. The Colonel is survived by his parents, his wife and two sons.

 

[Bhadra]

1. The discussion of manpower was in reference to SOF and strike units. SOF battalions are overmanned and used as super infantry. That is the job of non SF Paracommandos.

SF must be designed to be small, self sustainable and equipped to synergize as nodes in the recon/pathfinder/strike team jobs in wartime and for surgical strikes/intel during peacetime.

You have large units like the Mountain Corps raised against China who don't even have proper gear!

Vs

Contemporary equipment at LOC.

Thus we need to 'right size' units and move some to TA. Money saved on salaries and pensions by reducing recruitment can be used for desperately needed capital acquisition.

Alternatively indigenize equipment in bulk by ToT, Make in India and License Production and reduce costs, save money and repeat. There will still be some level of 'right sizing' , GoI is following this method.

2. Jawans are treated like servants in some Officers homes. Your average soldier doesn't sign up to wash clothes, cook vegetables and walk madam's dog. An expose was conducted recently and it led to a jawan killing himself out of fear of retribution.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.sc...r-against-journalist-who-reported-on-sahayaks

We must have more field oriented roles for both Officers and Men and less DSOI and dinner parties for ungrateful leftist defence brats who abuse the same army which feeds them!

https://m.huffingtonpost.in/anjana-...tRvbiyhEJqah_5f3bF6ehja-mlzd8q5bj-osp9m6ywYWP

Civilian contractors can be used. In CSD there are civilian cashiers and even in DSOI/Army Clubs there are civilian waiters now. An orderly may be housekeeping staff for that very purpose.

I have a special level of hatred for CRPF/ paramilitary IAS officers who like to behave like pseudo Army Officers and want to avail same facilities but won't bother to go down and conduct ground operations. My recommendation to them is also the same.

IGNOU courses must be aggressively pushed to allow for lucrative post retirement civilian packages. Industry placements, MBA/PGD courses will also do well.

Pairing officers and men post retirement as military subcontractors in security services, think tanks, MiC will ensure that the culture shock of transitioning to civilian life is less.

3. Until recently there was no major push for more Officers from NCO ranks. There was a trickle under various entry schemes but no substantial numbers. India also faces a shortage of good quality, professional OLQ manpower to fill vacancies.

CDS has made it a major push but we need to branch out their training as well. Cyber command, space command, army weapons research centres, etc will also need Officers which it cannot spare. So some of the burden can be shared.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprint.in/defence/this-is-how-more-army-jawans-can-become-officers-under-new-bipin-rawat-plan/297490/?amp

Identification of gray areas is ok but in order to find solutions dig deeper. Shalow digging will yield shallow answers...

 

[LurkerBaba]

If I may suggest...

A non-topical discussion can be moved to a chit-chat thread by copying the quote and pasting in the chit chat thread along with the reply. And continue the discussion there.

I've forked off a thread for this https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/improving-effectiveness-of-the-indian-army.82038/

Moved some posts there. Mods can move other OT posts there which are relevant in the new thread. cc @ALBY