Indian Special Forces (archived)

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MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00

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What's your opinion on this one?

Yes, I know what MARPAT woodland looks like... This is not any of that.

Look here. These guys are wearing Jungle MARPAT above & that one below, different from the others & only seen on Indian & Bhutanese forces.


Another MARPAT version.

CRPF also uses another desert pattern.
These looks like a Indian Version of MARPAT Woodland and Desert. They are definitely indian versions of MARPAT with Slight Color Pallet Variations. The First Camo you showed has all the colors of Woodland MARPAT but the Green color pallet been Subdued and with increase in the White Color Pallet in small patches. The “New” Desert Pattern follows same with the Green Color Pallet been made smaller while the White Cream color is larger.
 
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abingdonboy

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SAS were very eclectic with their camo choices in Iraq, when they were part of TF Black, so that really is not that big a deal.
Those were in the early days of the Iraq war, in the last 15 years they have massively stepped up their standards and you won't find that anymore. SAS today:















Indian forces have had 30+ years to standardise, their current DPM has been standard issue for 10+ years, they still aren't able to issue it to every soldier? wtf?!

Could be one of 1,9 or 10 Para (SF). Could be SG too,
For a number of reasons this is unlikely to be SG.


Another first- an Indian unit with chem lights- haven't even seen them with NSG. Certainly points to a unit that has been training with SFs of other nations.


PS - Also, that's a nice paint job on the M4 with the guy on left:
Most of these guys had really nice paint jobs on their M4s:


So this is PARA (SF) and I agree that's the unit they are and they too are using dedicated assault dogs. A while back we had discussed this issue here and it was pointed out that Indian SFs were one of the few "elite" SOFs that weren't using military assault dogs at all, at that time it was the NSG that was pioneering this (still are).

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that these dogs were from NSG's breeding and training centre (I hope so, those guys produce some of the most effective MWDs in the world).


View attachment 42265
.....................................................................
Step by step, we are getting there.

Only things left on checklist -

> Tactical headsets
> Better chest rigs
> Better night vision
> Better camo (Multicam is terrific and suits our terrain very well)
Let's be honest- there's a LONG way to go.

Those chest rigs are pathetic and aside from the lack of adequate uniforms one of the biggest issues with Indian SFs has always been their lack of attention on smaller specialist items for individual soldiers like med packs, multi-tools, breaching equipment etc etc. Sure this does seem to be changing (however little) by the fact that this unit was seen to be using drop pouches and chem lights which I had almost given up hope Indian SFs would ever understand the utility in.

On top of that they are taping their mags together- not what you want to see from your top of the line high speed operators!


And these guys really cannot be considered a credible world class SF without significant night fighting capabilities- ideally they will have the 4 tube GPNVG-18s from the outset but I appreciate that is probably a pipe dream, just a good quality binocular/2 tube set for each operator would do (for now). It seems many of the operators have the PEQ-17 IR designators on their rifles so that points at a focus on night fighting/NODs so let's hope.



@abingdonboy @rkhanna


Definitely not a simple coincidence that the entirety of unit has decided to not go with Tavors. Now unless this is a newly-formed unit and didn't have any TAR-21s on hand (but somehow did have M4s), I'm lead to believe this was a collective decision on part of the team's command, perhaps they indeed saw the merits of using a traditional-layout weapon like AR-15.

I have to wonder if that's a realization/trial-and-error lesson learnt from within or maybe the result of some ad-hoc 'advice' from USSOCOM (either during Vajra Prahar-type exercises or maybe ex-operators attached to various foreign equipment vendors).

Would love to see these guys clear a room and see if they're picked up on other things as well.
Yeah, I was considering the significance of this also.

We know that only a very few SOF units in the world now use a bullpup rifle as their main issue (and most of the time that is for pride reasons) and many who have bullpups for their regulars have traditional AR style rifles for their SOFs.


I know the Indian SF are fond of their Tavors for their accuracy-especially at long ranges (the TAR-21's barrel length packed into a compact body) but perhaps for CQB and other roles the lighter and less cumbersome M4 is seen as favourable? If the AFSOD is to get those SCARs too


The experiment with bullpups seems to be coming to an end around the world- FAMAS is gone (replaced by HK-416), even IWI has developed a conventional rifle design as their latest product and all "future" rifle designs are conventional also. I think even the PLA is planning to get rid of their QBZs.

Seeing this unit 100% equipped with M4s certainly is noteworthy.
GoI should create Indian Marines and Absorb ICG in that,
You don't understand the role of the ICG if you are making this statement. ICG is a LAW ENFORCEMENT (not military) entity responsible for enforcing Indian law inside its EEZ and territorial waters alongside being the nodal agency responsible for SAR in this area. This task is not glamorous and hence why the ICG (unfairly so) doesn't get the recognition they deserve but they are doing it 365 days a year along with a LOT more (pollution control, navigation assistance, liaising with regional RCCs etc etc).

if you take ICG away guess who that job gets given to- the IN. Do you really want the navy tied down to protecting the immediate coast of India and deploying $1bn destroyers for this task? Or do you want the IN freed to project power in India's area of interest?


No way should the ICG be absorbed by any other entity, in fact they should be expanded to the greatest extent possible- they are (along with almost every service other than the IAF) still woefully short of helicopters- especially medium/large class ones able to undertake long range SAR.

As an emerging power India cannot afford not to have a world class and highly capable CG, not only is it legally bound to have one (given international commitments) but it is in India's own interests.
 

vampyrbladez

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Those were in the early days of the Iraq war, in the last 15 years they have massively stepped up their standards and you won't find that anymore. SAS today:















Indian forces have had 30+ years to standardise, their current DPM has been standard issue for 10+ years, they still aren't able to issue it to every soldier? wtf?!


For a number of reasons this is unlikely to be SG.






Another first- an Indian unit with chem lights- haven't even seen them with NSG. Certainly points to a unit that has been training with SFs of other nations.



Most of these guys had really nice paint jobs on their M4s:








So this is PARA (SF) and I agree that's the unit they are and they too are using dedicated assault dogs. A while back we had discussed this issue here and it was pointed out that Indian SFs were one of the few "elite" SOFs that weren't using military assault dogs at all, at that time it was the NSG that was pioneering this (still are).

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that these dogs were from NSG's breeding and training centre (I hope so, those guys produce some of the most effective MWDs in the world).






Let's be honest- there's a LONG way to go.

Those chest rigs are pathetic and aside from the lack of adequate uniforms one of the biggest issues with Indian SFs has always been their lack of attention on smaller specialist items for individual soldiers like med packs, multi-tools, breaching equipment etc etc. Sure this does seem to be changing (however little) by the fact that this unit was seen to be using drop pouches and chem lights which I had almost given up hope Indian SFs would ever understand the utility in.

On top of that they are taping their mags together- not what you want to see from your top of the line high speed operators!


And these guys really cannot be considered a credible world class SF without significant night fighting capabilities- ideally they will have the 4 tube GPNVG-18s from the outset but I appreciate that is probably a pipe dream, just a good quality binocular/2 tube set for each operator would do (for now). It seems many of the operators have the PEQ-17 IR designators on their rifles so that points at a focus on night fighting/NODs so let's hope.




Yeah, I was considering the significance of this also.

We know that only a very few SOF units in the world now use a bullpup rifle as their main issue (and most of the time that is for pride reasons) and many who have bullpups for their regulars have traditional AR style rifles for their SOFs.


I know the Indian SF are fond of their Tavors for their accuracy-especially at long ranges (the TAR-21's barrel length packed into a compact body) but perhaps for CQB and other roles the lighter and less cumbersome M4 is seen as favourable? If the AFSOD is to get those SCARs too


The experiment with bullpups seems to be coming to an end around the world- FAMAS is gone (replaced by HK-416), even IWI has developed a conventional rifle design as their latest product and all "future" rifle designs are conventional also. I think even the PLA is planning to get rid of their QBZs.

Seeing this unit 100% equipped with M4s certainly is noteworthy.


You don't understand the role of the ICG if you are making this statement. ICG is a LAW ENFORCEMENT (not military) entity responsible for enforcing Indian law inside its EEZ and territorial waters alongside being the nodal agency responsible for SAR in this area. This task is not glamorous and hence why the ICG (unfairly so) doesn't get the recognition they deserve but they are doing it 365 days a year along with a LOT more (pollution control, navigation assistance, liaising with regional RCCs etc etc).

if you take ICG away guess who that job gets given to- the IN. Do you really want the navy tied down to protecting the immediate coast of India and deploying $1bn destroyers for this task? Or do you want the IN freed to project power in India's area of interest?


No way should the ICG be absorbed by any other entity, in fact they should be expanded to the greatest extent possible- they are (along with almost every service other than the IAF) still woefully short of helicopters- especially medium/large class ones able to undertake long range SAR.

As an emerging power India cannot afford not to have a world class and highly capable CG, not only is it legally bound to have one (given international commitments) but it is in India's own interests.
NSG has a really nice tac vest on their operators now. Logically, this could be next item to be procured or has been procured.



Which is similar to this :



I see our Indian SOF (atleast the AFSOD) being equipped like this in 1-2 years.

 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

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hey do look like AFSOD guys
Different camos and shoes
Helmets looking new
These are SFF guys..aka the other team. @abingdonboy

The third guy is the team leader for sure.(the last pic)

Behind him the operator is wearing a camo which was earlier worn by SFF in late 80s or early 90s.

The second guy is wearing a camo i have never seen in india.

but most of them are wearing hiking shoes...very unlike paras... very likely sff.

This stuff is very popular from the towns where tibetians reside in india.
 

Bleh

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Indian forces have had 30+ years to standardise, their current DPM has been standard issue for 10+ years, they still aren't able to issue it to every soldier? wtf?!
Could it be possible that this non-standardisation is deliberate?
Even the regulars, in Kashmir valley & LOC, whose unit have gotten the new helmet & plate-carriers look like this... atleast within themselves.
 

Waanar

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My dream is that instead of raising a new unit, we could have deployed a permanent NSG detachment.
You know NSG, I see more of as a trainer and experimenting force than "deploy at the earnest force". It should be constantly taking inputs and giving it out, developing tactics and testing weapons and letting it trickle down to Paramilitaries and State police SWATs with itself being deployed only in scenarios with unforeseen violence and tragedy.

If you deploy NSG in every possible CQB situation that may arise, what is the use of the paramilitaries and state police units?
 

abingdonboy

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My dream is that instead of raising a new unit, we could have deployed a permanent NSG detachment.
The NSG (rightly so) doesn't have the numbers to do something like that- they cannot be the first responders to every situation like the CRPF's QAT is being raised to be.

NSG should see more action in JK but it should only be for the most extreme missions that meets their mission profiles ie hostage rescue, hijacking and barricaded (high value) terrorists.

Remember, NSG is a life saving force- not a life taking one hence their doctrine is to use minimum level force wherever possible. That's not really suitable for a lot of missions in JK hence CRPF and RR are, and should be, the de facto responders.

@abingdonboy

Bro there are two teams.

This one looks like the para sf 100%..i am not sure of the other one.

These guys have patka,tavors and pkm..very much para like.
No doubt about it, there are two distinct teams here, one is certainly PARA (SF), the other....who knows?

But what's interesting is that both have MWDs (assault dogs), take away team one, it would still be noteworthy that a "regular" PARA (SF) team had started deploying dedicated assault dogs when this had been a criticism against them for some time.

NSG has a really nice tac vest on their operators now. Logically, this could be next item to be procured or has been procured.



Which is similar to this :

Really though there's a HUGE difference between the plate carriers here. The NSG's one is okay but nothing special, it isn't as impressive as the one below. Granted, much of this is because of the way the NSG have configured it.
I see our Indian SOF (atleast the AFSOD) being equipped like this in 1-2 years.

Very very optimistic and I won't be holding my breath. We know how long these things take in Indian conditions and we also don't even know what SOD actually looks like today or their plans for the future, it's pure guesswork that these guys are SOD.


These are SFF guys..aka the other team. @abingdonboy

The third guy is the team leader for sure.(the last pic)

Behind him the operator is wearing a camo which was earlier worn by SFF in late 80s or early 90s.

The second guy is wearing a camo i have never seen in india.

but most of them are wearing hiking shoes...very unlike paras... very likely sff.

This stuff is very popular from the towns where tibetians reside in india.
I wouldn't like to speculate but from what I've heard SFF/SG don't do very much DA type stuff in JK.

This is a military SF unit I'm pretty sure of that, who exactly they are I couldn't say.


+ for some time now the Tibetan numbers in SFF has been declining in favour of more from the NE and mainland India.
 

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The NSG (rightly so) doesn't have the numbers to do something like that- they cannot be the first responders to every situation like the CRPF's QAT is being raised to be.

NSG should see more action in JK but it should only be for the most extreme missions that meets their mission profiles ie hostage rescue, hijacking and barricaded (high value) terrorists.

Remember, NSG is a life saving force- not a life taking one hence their doctrine is to use minimum level force wherever possible. That's not really suitable for a lot of missions in JK hence CRPF and RR are, and should be, the de facto responders.



No doubt about it, there are two distinct teams here, one is certainly PARA (SF), the other....who knows?

But what's interesting is that both have MWDs (assault dogs), take away team one, it would still be noteworthy that a "regular" PARA (SF) team had started deploying dedicated assault dogs when this had been a criticism against them for some time.


Really though there's a HUGE difference between the plate carriers here. The NSG's one is okay but nothing special, it isn't as impressive as the one below. Granted, much of this is because of the way the NSG have configured it.

Very very optimistic and I won't be holding my breath. We know how long these things take in Indian conditions and we also don't even know what SOD actually looks like today or their plans for the future, it's pure guesswork that these guys are SOD.




I wouldn't like to speculate but from what I've heard SFF/SG don't do very much DA type stuff in JK.

This is a military SF unit I'm pretty sure of that, who exactly they are I couldn't say.

Theres no differentiation among the two.


+ for some time now the Tibetan numbers in SFF has been declining in favour of more from the NE and mainland India.
SFF do all the ops Para do.Higher command doesnt differentiate between the two.

SFF was also deployed in Siachen in the 80s.Always did CI/CT ops in Kashmir and cross border raids just like the Para.
 

Gessler

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What's your opinion on this one?
I think its better than the PC Disruptive (Army standard camo) in certain environments, but broadly I personally prefer 'organic' camo as opposed to pixelated ones. Note that the term 'digital camo' is not exactly right as nowadays ALL camo patterns are generated digitally (on a computer) so technically Multicam is also digital camo.

The correct term for patterns like MARPAT (or this one we are using now) in my opinion would simply be "pixelated camo".

Coming to why I prefer organic shapes as opposed to pixelated mish-mash, first of all there's two parts to a camouflage 1) pattern and 2) colour palette. It's the combination of near-perfection in both these aspects which makes Multicam so great.

In terms of pattern, I'd say pixelation might seem effective from closer ranges, but its effectiveness reduces as distance grows. From farther distances, pixelated camo (especially if using dark colours like Woodland MARPAT) tends to be ineffective in breaking up the pattern (making the wearer less obvious from his surroundings).

Organic shapes like those used in Multicam seem to be effective in a much wider use-case.

In terms of colour palette, again the Multicam is far more effective with incorporating colours and shades normally found in terrain, MARPAT less so (Woodland). The rules change when issue is of arid terrain where majority of surroundings are in lighter shades.

+++

Coming to this new camo we're using, I think it has a much greater usage of brown shades in its palette than woodland MARPAT, and that apparently makes it more effective in many use-cases in India compared to traditional MARPAT. I'm yet to see someone make an attempt at creating a pixelated pattern but using the same colour palette as Multicam.

I had a conversation with Vinayak Sen of Armasen Tactical once and he said they were working on a new camo, somewhat along those lines. So fingers crossed. :yo:

The inverse also deserves study IMO (MARPAT/other colour palette, but in Multicam pattern).

In the meantime, it can't hurt for some of our users to try out Multicam in J&K (some Para commandos have done previously) in a bigger way. And not only in J&K but in wider India as well...this is a pic of a Kazakh soldier during a Prabal Dostyk exercise in Himachal...it doesn't take a genius to figure out the visiting contingent's camo (which is a Multicam variant) is much more suited to local terrain than the Indian contingent's :doh:

 

Shaitan

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The current IA camo looks like it's suited for Kashmir in the spring, summer, but it's completely off in Thar, etc. I hope for a new standard camo, god knows when that will happen.
 

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The third guy is the team leader for sure.(the last pic)
What gives it away?

Behind him the operator is wearing a camo which was earlier worn by SFF in late 80s or early 90s.
JKP SOG use it even today...it appears to be a combination of/either American M81 Woodland or British DPM 95. Or at least an off-brand inspired by those patterns.

24799399_1060384114103272_456453448034734903_o.jpg


The second guy is wearing a camo i have never seen in india.
Seen it before with Paras. @Unknowncommando 2 probably has the pics.
 

Suryavanshi

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The current IA camo looks like it's suited for Kashmir in the spring, summer, but it's completely off in Thar, etc. I hope for a new standard camo, god knows when that will happen.
Wouldn't it make sense to have 3 different camo for three different border regions.

Indo Pak border region of Kashmir and Punjab

Indo Pak border region of Rajasthan and Gujarat

Indo Tibetan Border region
 

Bleh

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I think its better than the PC Disruptive (Army standard camo) in certain environments, but broadly I personally prefer 'organic' camo as opposed to pixelated ones. Note that the term 'digital camo' is not exactly right as nowadays ALL camo patterns are generated digitally (on a computer) so technically Multicam is also digital camo.

The correct term for patterns like MARPAT (or this one we are using now) in my opinion would simply be "pixelated camo".

Coming to why I prefer organic shapes as opposed to pixelated mish-mash, first of all there's two parts to a camouflage 1) pattern and 2) colour palette. It's the combination of near-perfection in both these aspects which makes Multicam so great.

In terms of pattern, I'd say pixelation might seem effective from closer ranges, but its effectiveness reduces as distance grows. From farther distances, pixelated camo (especially if using dark colours like Woodland MARPAT) tends to be ineffective in breaking up the pattern (making the wearer less obvious from his surroundings).

Organic shapes like those used in Multicam seem to be effective in a much wider use-case.

In terms of colour palette, again the Multicam is far more effective with incorporating colours and shades normally found in terrain, MARPAT less so (Woodland). The rules change when issue is of arid terrain where majority of surroundings are in lighter shades.

+++

Coming to this new camo we're using, I think it has a much greater usage of brown shades in its palette than woodland MARPAT, and that apparently makes it more effective in many use-cases in India compared to traditional MARPAT. I'm yet to see someone make an attempt at creating a pixelated pattern but using the same colour palette as Multicam.

I had a conversation with Vinayak Sen of Armasen Tactical once and he said they were working on a new camo, somewhat along those lines. So fingers crossed. :yo:

The inverse also deserves study IMO (MARPAT/other colour palette, but in Multicam pattern).

In the meantime, it can't hurt for some of our users to try out Multicam in J&K (some Para commandos have done previously) in a bigger way. And not only in J&K but in wider India as well...this is a pic of a Kazakh soldier during a Prabal Dostyk exercise in Himachal...it doesn't take a genius to figure out the visiting contingent's camo (which is a Multicam variant) is much more suited to local terrain than the Indian contingent's :doh:

Ok whoops... I meant this new camo (same colour palette but pixelated) we're talking about that's only seen on some Indian & Bhutanese forces.
PS: Also I can definitely think of Yudh Abhyas where Indian camo's large blotches were superior to multicam (& always superior to their older one).
 
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abingdonboy

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Before we declare all is right with the SF community in India watch this video of the same encounter:




PARA (SF) teams still in the same pathetic state- cr@p everything and for some reason they are simultaneously wearing every single helmet the Indian Army has used in the last 5 years- Viper P2, Patka, MKU ACH and those weird black high cuts with no rails or mounts.

There's almost nothing about these guys that points to them being an elite unit,


HUGE way to go, not even sure if things are going to improve drastically in the next 5 years
 

Bleh

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The current IA camo looks like it's suited for Kashmir in the spring, summer, but it's completely off in Thar, etc. I hope for a new standard camo, god knows when that will happen.
There is a pic laying around here if the Para SFs Deserts scorpion camo.
I think that is best suited for Rajasthan and Gujrar.

Another variations is this.

Too whiteish... Combo of two are good enough for most Indian scenarios;
CRPF QAT Commandos
 
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