Indian Special Forces (archived)

[abingdonboy]

View attachment 42216

That magazine its quite thick.

Most of them have taped their mags together so most are double-mags attached

 

[Suryavanshi]

Most of them have taped their mags together so most are double-mags attached

This was a new thing for me

 

[abingdonboy]

This was a new thing for me

Check out any images of NSG, almost every operator will have double mags inserted in their primary and they actually have proper magazine doublers not this jugaad tape approach.

until now I don’t remember any images of any SF in India having doubled up their mags so yeah, this is another new thing to have spotted from these guys

 

[fire starter]

Check out any images of NSG, almost every operator will have double mags inserted in their primary and they actually have proper magazine doublers not this jugaad tape approach.

until now I don’t remember any images of any SF in India having doubled up their mags so yeah, this is another new thing to have spotted from these guys

I remember during mumbai NSG was not having any proper kit but now they are equipped with state of the art weapons there progress is very fast among all forces.

 

[Suryavanshi]

@abingdonboy
What kind of warfare do u expect in Sir Creek region in Gujarat?

Unlike Kashmir there are no mountains so there is no height advantages to either side.

Unlike Punjab there is no solid land for mechanized infantry push.

Unlike Rajasthan it's not a complete desert.

Its mostly a humid marshy area with vegetation spread here and there.

 

[Gessler]

I remember during mumbai NSG was not having any proper kit but now they are equipped with state of the art weapons there progress is very fast among all forces.

In all honesty, in the weapons category there hasn't been much of a change/improvement. The standardized primary weapons for NSG today are MP-5s and SG 550-series rifles...same as what we had back during 26/11.

Admittedly, use of rifles has increased. And the MP-5s have been upgraded quite a bit. During 26/11 we just had plain-jane MP-5A3s like this:

Nowadays we have MP-5s that are kitted out a fair bit, notable changes include use of Brugger & Thomet tri-rail handguards, and almost mandatory usage of optics like a Zeiss RSA-S red dot (back in 2008 it was just iron sights and the mp-5 irons, while good, can't match up to the target-acquisition speed of a red-dot or any other illuminated collimator).

What I would consider a true change would be a switch over to a far more modern weapon platform, like the SIG Sauer MPX (which NSG is incidentally trying out in fact), this is of course while remaining within the ambit of NSG's preference for 9x19 rounds instead of relying mostly on a broad range of 5.56x45 (to include subsonic ones for reduced penetration).

 

[Suryavanshi]

In all honesty, in the weapons category there hasn't been much of a change/improvement. The standardized primary weapons for NSG today are MP-5s and SG 550-series rifles...same as what we had back during 26/11.

Admittedly, use of rifles has increased. And the MP-5s have been upgraded quite a bit. During 26/11 we just had plain-jane MP-5A3s like this:

Nowadays we have MP-5s that are kitted out a fair bit, notable changes include use of Brugger & Thomet tri-rail handguards, and almost mandatory usage of optics like a Zeiss RSA-S red dot (back in 2008 it was just iron sights and the mp-5 irons, while good, can't match up to the target-acquisition speed of a red-dot or any other illuminated collimator).

What I would consider a true change would be a switch over to a far more modern weapon platform, like the SIG Sauer MPX (which NSG is incidentally trying out in fact), this is of course while remaining within the ambit of NSG's preference for 9x19 rounds instead of relying mostly on a broad range of 5.56x45 (to include subsonic ones for reduced penetration).

Wouldn't JVPC do the job? They almost have the same specs except range and caliber.

 

[Suryavanshi]

@abingdonboy
What kind of warfare do u expect in Sir Creek region in Gujarat?

Unlike Kashmir there are no mountains so there is no height advantages to either side.

Unlike Punjab there is no solid land for mechanized infantry push.

Unlike Rajasthan it's not a complete desert.

Its mostly a humid marshy area with vegetation spread here and there.

Continue

Since the area is mostly flat with rising and falling mounds here and there, I think the role of DMR will be most significant. Target's will be engaged within 300 to 600 m.
Camouflage will be tested to its max since we have a mixed dry vegetation there.

 

[MuzzleVelocity]

Is the unit in question likely to be AFSOD?

 

[Gessler]

Wouldn't JVPC do the job? They almost have the same specs except range and caliber.

I've explained my views on the 5.56x30 round before, in this post (though I'm talking about Amogh carbine there, many of same points apply to JVPC as well):

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/small-arms-of-india.50038/page-84#post-1570102

In short, I don't see 5.56x30 as a worthwhile step-up from 9mm, especially if the platform we are offering it in is in the weight category of either Amogh or JVPC (approx 3 kg).

In that weight (and size), you might as well get a 5.56x45 short-barrel carbine like a Daniel Defense MK18 with 10.3" barrel (which is actually lighter than both), and which also gives you the extra punch delivered by 45mm casing as opposed to 30mm (length of casing proportional to powder-filling), is infinitely more adaptable thanks to full-length rails, and offers commonality in ammo, training & logistics should the assaulters also choose an AR-15 for the longer rifle requirements (replacement of SG 552/553-series).

I frankly see no good reason to choose JVPC/Amogh over a AR-15 CQBR on terms of merit alone. And even with regard to pricing, remember that OFB is currently selling JVPC to Police forces for approx. Rs. 75k per or about $1050 (bulk price, not retail). A MK-18 in retail goes for approx $1600 (varies between vendors), a bulk order should ideally get it down closer to $1000-1100 (even the $2300 SIG-716 was brought down to $990 for Army order).

While it's true that money spent on OFB goes back into economy, it doesn't make a difference to the organization spending the money (NSG, Police, Army), so security agencies are unlikely to get any savings in CAPEX by going for a JVPC over something like MK-18.

This is ofcourse beyond the technical advantages.

 

[rkhanna]

Is the unit in question likely to be AFSOD?

Good chance. High probablity. (dogs and kits are an indicator) but could be SF also.

But none of that is as important as WHY was SF/SOD called into to chase 2 terrorist into a forest.. cant ghatak and QRT do it? Low Value High Risk ops are completely pointless.

Till we don't figure out what we WANT out of our SOF units they will continue to be used as commando units. Which is fine as long as we understand/ok with - this is what they are and probably some of the best in the world in this role but will never be more.




OT - FYI - this was the constructive review SOCOM has done of its SOF units (including JSOC)

https://www.businessinsider.in/poli...sense-of-entitlement/articleshow/73715279.cms

- Massive issue due to over reliance of DA missions
- Training massively suffering
- Issue in ethics and moral code of operators due to increased expansion and high tempo operations

 

[abingdonboy]

I remember during mumbai NSG was not having any proper kit but now they are equipped with state of the art weapons there progress is very fast among all forces.

26/11 was a wakeup call for them no doubt and it's remarkable the transformation they have seen, the biggest change though has been mindset- unlike other elite units in India they have appreciated that they are not supermen, that confidence in their own abilities alone does not mean everything. As a result you see a constant slew of new equipment and tactics coming into NSG almost on a monthly basis and they are constantly trying out new things- this is the epitomisation of an elite unit and how much of the top tier units operate.

PARA (SF) on the other hand has seemed content to sit idle for the best of the last decade....

@abingdonboy
What kind of warfare do u expect in Sir Creek region in Gujarat?

Unlike Kashmir there are no mountains so there is no height advantages to either side.

Unlike Punjab there is no solid land for mechanized infantry push.

Unlike Rajasthan it's not a complete desert.

Its mostly a humid marshy area with vegetation spread here and there.

Probably best to discuss this out of this thread

In all honesty, in the weapons category there hasn't been much of a change/improvement. The standardized primary weapons for NSG today are MP-5s and SG 550-series rifles...same as what we had back during 26/11.

Admittedly, use of rifles has increased. And the MP-5s have been upgraded quite a bit. During 26/11 we just had plain-jane MP-5A3s like this:

Nowadays we have MP-5s that are kitted out a fair bit, notable changes include use of Brugger & Thomet tri-rail handguards, and almost mandatory usage of optics like a Zeiss RSA-S red dot (back in 2008 it was just iron sights and the mp-5 irons, while good, can't match up to the target-acquisition speed of a red-dot or any other illuminated collimator).

What I would consider a true change would be a switch over to a far more modern weapon platform, like the SIG Sauer MPX (which NSG is incidentally trying out in fact), this is of course while remaining within the ambit of NSG's preference for 9x19 rounds instead of relying mostly on a broad range of 5.56x45 (to include subsonic ones for reduced penetration).

This comes down to doctrine though- it is NSG's belief that the 9mm calibre is the most suitable for CQB and HR.So if NSG are going to stick to the 9mm as their primary calibre it makes little sense to spend significant sums getting the MPX or any other SMG for only marginal improvements. the MPA3 is pretty much on par with the MPX.

Most top CT units have, some time back, switched to 5.56*45 (or even 7.62*39) though so hopefully NSG is thinking about this seriously for themselves*


* Since 26/11 the NSG has significantly increased the number of carbines (SIG 553) present within each of their intervention teams from maybe 5% to probably 10-15% today.

OFB is currently selling JVPC to Police forces for approx. Rs. 75k per or about $1050

If they get serious orders (>100,000) this is going to crash, OFB have capacity to go to 40k units a year, anything below that is going to keep prices higher than optimal.

 

[abingdonboy]

Good chance. High probablity. (dogs and kits are an indicator) but could be SF also.

But none of that is as important as WHY was SF/SOD called into to chase 2 terrorist into a forest.. cant ghatak and QRT do it? Low Value High Risk ops are completely pointless.

Till we don't figure out what we WANT out of our SOF units they will continue to be used as commando units. Which is fine as long as we understand/ok with - this is what they are and probably some of the best in the world in this role but will never be more.




OT - FYI - this was the constructive review SOCOM has done of its SOF units (including JSOC)

https://www.businessinsider.in/poli...sense-of-entitlement/articleshow/73715279.cms

- Massive issue due to over reliance of DA missions
- Training massively suffering
- Issue in ethics and moral code of operators due to increased expansion and high tempo operations

I agree that bringing in SF regularly for just DA missions is absurd but I do see this reducing after the Surgical Strikes of 2015 (not the 2016 ones) where the SF establishment realised they needed to return to their original big picture mandate and not be tied down in these tactical interventions. Hence since then we have seen capacity building of JKP and CAPFs (remember it was the CRPF's QAT that got the first 2 pigs before the army even turned up) and a gradual removal of SFs from this "conventional" role. I remember not long ago when every single encounter seemed to involve the SFs being called in to finish off the terrorists, not really the case these days.


That said the AFSOD is a unique case, they aren't being deployed to JK as their primary role but they are meant to go there to further validate their tri-service/interoperability model. There's no other place they could be sent to get battlefield indoctrination (even if many of their operators would already have seen action in JK/NE).



(not saying these guys are SOD though)

 

[boris]

So we still haven’t been able to nail down who these guys are, I suspect they are PARA SF but since when have PARA SF had assault dogs?

anyway a force with 100% M4s and high cuts isn’t something we’ve seen before also if I’m not wrong most of these operators have drop bags on their carriers/belts, again something very “TFTA” that I’ve not seen on any Indian unit thus far.

just fascinated to learn who these guys were, it’s very much come out of nowhere

Could be one of 1,9 or 10 Para (SF). Could be SG too, but they seem to use a lot more SIG weaponry over M4's and it would be shocking that they'd allow media in an active operation zone. All M4's was definitely surprising.


On the topic of different camo - I agree with everything you say on this thread re: Indian SF, this one not so much, the SAS were very eclectic with their camo choices in Iraq, when they were part of TF Black, so that really is not that big a deal.

 

[Waanar]

Hence since then we have seen capacity building of JKP and CAPFs (remember it was the CRPF's QAT that got the first 2 pigs before the army even turned up) and a gradual removal of SFs from this "conventional" role.

That is true. A QAT operator on news mentioned that they regularly train with NSG for 3 months and Mumbai police's Force One for another two every year and are on a constant high readiness. An officer further reiterated that their workload has consistently been piling up ever since Cuntan Wani was killed.

They also had pretty fluid movement for an Indian police unit and looked pretty sorted in priorities.

Here it is-

Also, kudos to the reporter. She asks a lot of relevant questions regarding operations and past experiences.

 

[Gessler]

If they get serious orders (>100,000) this is going to crash, OFB have capacity to go to 40k units a year, anything below that is going to keep prices higher than optimal.

It's not just about orders - but overhead charges as well (which are main culprit).

That's why even INSAS is being sold to Police units for well over $1000 a piece. Despite being in production for 20+ years and each year several thousand being made.

This is even more than the kind of price tag a well-made AR 15 from name-brand manufacturer like SIG would cost in the RETAIL market (single-unit sales).

SIG M400 - Approx $800 in retail. Nothing can justify buying a INSAS 1B at $1000.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

They may or may not belong to 10 PARA SF but similar setup on Gypsies used by them

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Few more from Nagrota Encounter Site

 

[vampyrbladez]

Going by the reported procurement of weapons & systems from US via FMS (no competition, no tender), and also by the way the unit is being structured (not along the lines of SOCOM, but more along the lines of JSOC), it's plausible to assume that AFSOD is actually being created as more or less a 'Tier-1 equivalent/counterpart' force who's operational command will remain independent of the three Armed Forces, and will report directly to the CDS in the emerging structure.

Tier-1 units & Equivalent forces (like Poland's GROM, Australia's SASR or France's 1st Para Regiment) are kitted out extremely similarly, from the type of gun & ammo, down to the type of batteries that go into a laser module. And are similarly trained as well.

All these years our SFs (mainly Paras) have spent training with US SOF units may actually be paying off. An Indian Tier-1 Equivalent force might just be around the corner in the form of AFSOD.

We know as a matter of fact that deeper working relationship & interoperability with US forces on the ground is on the agenda for the current GOI as well, so all the more reason to assume this would be the course of events.

(Pics from above tweet thread)

SCAR-L (SOCOM Mk.16) rifleman:

Alternatively, HK416 (if FMS purchase is successful without German obstruction):

SCAR-H (SOCOM Mk.17) battle rifle with 1-4x LPVO (variable-power optic):

@abingdonboy this post from a while ago seems to coincide with the recent changes in gear noticed.

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

Is that camo on the right Indian?... Better than the Marpat IMO.

I've seen lots of paramilitary personnels wearing it laterly. Looks like a digicamo version of the present one. IA too should really consider switching to it. View attachment 41758

This is not a Indian Camo Bro. This is the Woodland Version of MARPAT. The US Marines have made a lot of variation of there MARPAT Digital Camo. The Indian Army uses Central European Woodland as there current Camo which was copied from France and it also doesn’t have Digitized version. I mean I love India to switch uniform and Camo but the MARPAT Woodland should just be used by CRPF and Indian Army Should better Switch to Digital Version German Flecktarn which is much better Camouflage than just Digital MARPAT.