Indian Special Forces (archived)

[vampyrbladez]

What will we do if we get into a Shooting war? We cant put assets in the air? We hit Balakot. Logic would dictate the pakis will do something stupid to save face.

PS during week long excercises we routinely practice a larger numbver of BARCAP Screens for extended periods.


Anyways Like Mayfair said. last on this.

You seem to forget that most of these encounters last less than 2 minutes. Fates are decided in seconds. If you have a shooting war, by the time the 10 minute mark has gone past, you will have IAF fighters swarming the LOC.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I do not understand the promotion policy. r we promoting undeserving guys up in the tri services? how can the top guys not know what is needed? many of the people here, enlist the needs of our forces yet no one at the top knows it!
(i have only read abt army cases hence the below points on army but i believe it might be true for the other 2 forces as well)

in an old news link, i read that Col Lalit Rai VrC was denied promotion since he "lacked qualities needed for higher command"!!! this is the same man who led from the front in Kargil yet he is unqualified? as a result, he chose to resign and move on....i feel same goes for Col. Shekhawat who has been messed with since 2009! why r obviously talented officers(in a commoners view at least) getting ignored yet the action of the higher up does not inspire any hope in us either. these highly decorated guys got superseded because they r "not gud enough" for the strategic jobs. if we r to believe this, then y r those guys who superseded guys like Rai and Shekhawat not doing what they r supposed to do? that means the promotion system/parameters is flawed right?

That is because the import lobby needs it's reliable tattus who will stop indigenous weapons production and even prevent basic military modernisation. Army Chiefs after Gen. V.K. Singh (Retd.) have been much better than in the past with Gen. Bipin Rawat being the best so far. I really hope that he becomes the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff.

 

[Gessler]

The list of reasons why its a good thing that AFSOD will be directly under CDS is a very long one.

 

[cyclops]

Not only that, IAF was disinterested in NETRA AEWACS till they realised its worth in the Gagan Shakthi exercise and luckily deployed it during Balakot strikes. This is how we work !

Yup very true, and since we are on the Special forces thread; there was a similar issue when Tonbo Imaging had first come about.
Apparently Tonbo had reached out to the Army some time around the UPA era but IA had rebuffed them as they were Indian and were relatively new and only after a joint special forces exercise with the US did they find out that some American Spec Ops teams too were using Tonbo optics, and only then did IA give Tonbo a fair shake.
And look at them now, IA is more or less flush with Tonbo products.

 

[rkhanna]

Regarding the name of army SF and meghdoot @rkhanna is the man to answer that as he knows Para regtt politics better than me.

The Meghdoot Force was an adhoc unit clobbered together by Major Megh Singh during the 65 war. the Major was a visonary in Asymetrical warfare and followed in the hallowed steps of David Sterling. The Unit was never part of Army orbat

Post war the "unit" was so successful that the special operations capability was deemed neccecary to be built and the Para Regiment was deemed the best place to build the capaInbility as they had the best infra/ schools at the time.

The Meghdoot Force then became 9 Para Commando (now 9 Para-SF) - Major Singh was then the First CO of the Official Unit which was 9 Para-Cdo

in 1986 or so a plan was undertaken to Remove the 3 para-cdo battalions from the Paras and form a Special Forces Regiment. After almost 6/7 years of haggling and infighting the plan was abandoned citing Administrative and logistical issues. To appease the Commando Component the 'Commando' tag was dropped for the Special Forces tag (putting lipstick on a pig) and life goes on.

A large number of the Para Regiment battlefield honors came from SF and the Para powers that be didnt want that to go away in the future. (i.e turf wars driven by personal egos and for personal gain)

And IMO it is due to this "administrative hold" that conventional commanders have over SF that we hardly see them evolve over more than a Commando Role.

Its come to a point today that in the mid 2000s the Conventional Para Co's almost revolted when they didnt get the same Haz pay as SF. They claimed they can and DO do the same job as SF and there is no real difference. To make peace their demands were met

 

[rkhanna]

And lol here we go again

SOD is doing its second operational readiness exercise.

https://zeenews.india.com/india/spe...n-andamans-against-intruders-2240719.html/amp

 

[armyofhind]

And lol here we go again

SOD is doing its second operational readiness exercise.

https://zeenews.india.com/india/spe...n-andamans-against-intruders-2240719.html/amp

Why the lol but?

=========================

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

And lol here we go again

SOD is doing its second operational readiness exercise.

https://zeenews.india.com/india/spe...n-andamans-against-intruders-2240719.html/amp

Doesnt look very promising... deployment from different bases and Andamans? Wont such type of operation be a commando op which regular Marcos can do?

 

[rkhanna]

Why the lol but?

=========================

Because its extremely strange that a unit whose formation was announced administratively 12 months ago is doing its SECOND operational readiness exercises and that too not in a non SOF tasking.

I can either laugh or cry. hence the LOL.

 

[armyofhind]

Because its extremely strange that a unit whose formation was announced administratively 12 months ago is doing its SECOND operational readiness exercises and that too not in a non SOF tasking.

I can either laugh or cry. hence the LOL.

Agree on the part that the pace of the action needs to ramped up for an SOF Unit.

But if DA and SR missions are a part of their tasking, then I'm sure some of these do fall in the ambit of the defence of the Andamans if it comes to a major military power ( read PRC) trying to attempt a full scale invasion of the islands.

By the way, is there any info on where this new unit is based? They must be carrying out exercises over there as well, albeit even if it is piecemeal in smaller units.

 

[ezsasa]

Because its extremely strange that a unit whose formation was announced administratively 12 months ago is doing its SECOND operational readiness exercises and that too not in a non SOF tasking.

I can either laugh or cry. hence the LOL.

Curious, what is non SOF tasking?

 

[rkhanna]

Agree on the part that the pace of the action needs to ramped up for an SOF Unit.

But if DA and SR missions are a part of their tasking, then I'm sure some of these do fall in the ambit of the defence of the Andamans if it comes to a major military power ( read PRC) trying to attempt a full scale invasion of the islands.

By the way, is there any info on where this new unit is based? They must be carrying out exercises over there as well, albeit even if it is piecemeal in smaller units.

My 2 paisa - Should have taken atleast 3-4 years to get SOD up and running. the planning alone woutd have taken a year.

1. Adminstrative and budget allocations would take 3-6 months
2. Devising and making a "selection program" + Infrasutcutr + Kit purchases unique for SOD tasking - 6months
3. Devising and training instructors for Post Selection training - 1 year
4 Training selected Cadre 1 year
5 Operational readiness exercises -1 year


NO short cuts in life

- It took Garud 2 years to show their first "Graduated Batch" - still not operationally cleared
- GROM was proposed in 1982 and was Active in 1990
The examples are endless.

 

[rkhanna]

Curious, what is non SOF tasking?

Conventional Infantry Missions usually conducted at company strength where the Mission objective is tactical not strategic.

In India we confuse commando missions with Special Forces missions. For e.g. Special Recon is also a commando/infantry tasking if the objective of the mission is tactical recon. If the Special Recon mission is to ID a HVT for a Mirage to drop a LGB on his head then it is a SOF tasking.


MOST missions our SF conduct today in the Valley fall under the realm of Commando taskings - lets us the Americans / Brits as an example) would be given to Units like the Rangers / 10 Mountain / 82 Airborne / Royal Marines)

SOF units do undertake these missions when absolutely neccecary ofcourse but it cannot be what they primarily train for and are tasked for.

Also - let me rephrase the above. I didnt mean (purely) non SOF tasking with regards to this ex but its not a TIER 1 tasking ( which is the whole point of SOD).

Defending an island should (in my opinion ofcourse) should fall first with MARCOS ((Vanilla SF) / Amphib Infantry / Parachute Regiment / Para SF first?

Edit: The way i see it - if an island (using the Maldives example) had to be liberated the SOD would be the pathfinders bringing in the Para's + MARCOS to retake the island. SOD wouldnt be retake the Island on its own. (see Greneda / Panama as examples of JSOC leading the Conventional Military in)

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Conventional Infantry Missions usually conducted at company strength where the Mission objective is tactical not strategic.

In India we confuse commando missions with Special Forces missions. For e.g. Special Recon is also a commando/infantry tasking if the objective of the mission is tactical recon. If the Special Recon mission is to ID a HVT for a Mirage to drop a LGB on his head then it is a SOF tasking.


MOST missions our SF conduct today in the Valley fall under the realm of Commando taskings - lets us the Americans / Brits as an example) would be given to Units like the Rangers / 10 Mountain / 82 Airborne / Royal Marines)

SOF units do undertake these missions when absolutely neccecary ofcourse but it cannot be what they primarily train for and are tasked for.

Also - let me rephrase the above. I didnt mean (purely) non SOF tasking with regards to this ex but its not a TIER 1 tasking ( which is the whole point of SOD).

Defending an island should (in my opinion ofcourse) should fall first with MARCOS ((Vanilla SF) / Amphib Infantry / Parachute Regiment / Para SF first?

Edit: The way i see it - if an island (using the Maldives example) had to be liberated the SOD would be the pathfinders bringing in the Para's + MARCOS to retake the island. SOD wouldnt be retake the Island on its own. (see Greneda / Panama as examples of JSOC leading the Conventional Military in)

Yes..SOD would be present as civvies in plain clothes or providing security to the island president and his other ministers and providing intel for PARA SF and other units to launch an offensive.

In Indias history only OP Bluestar and Kandahar hijacking would be the ones where SOD would have been required.

The rest of all operations are Commando operations in our history

 

[rkhanna]

Yes..SOD would be present as civvies in plain clothes or providing security to the island president and his other ministers and providing intel for PARA SF and other units to launch an offensive.

In Indias history only OP Bluestar and Kandahar hijacking would be the ones where SOD would have been required.

The rest of all operations are Commando operations in our history

Yes! That is my understanding / Wish / Want anyways.

This exercise on a large Scale with fully simulated Civilians under an OPFOR being rescued with a Combined Arms Action from Navy / AF / Special Forces / Paras / SOD would have been an awesome thing.


In such a Senario - MARCOS would be used to create Beach heads and Secure the waterline / Disrupt any Marine Early Warning / Interdiction capability of the OPFOR (on the coast or in open water) so that Marine infantry and Armour can make a landing

Garuds and Paras would used to retake / Capture Airport and get it up and running again. as well as SEAD/DEAD missions so that a larger force of Paras / SFF / infantry can land

Para SF would be tasked with DA / Sabotage (communications) / Hostage Rescue / taking key infrastructure nodes - Power / Radio etc etc

SOD would be tasked with Special Recon and going after HVTs and Rescuing HVPs from our side and Providing Covert Overwatch to all other critical missions

Multitudes of SOF missions converging over a larger landscape

 

[rkhanna]

In Indias history only OP Bluestar and Kandahar hijacking would be the ones where SOD would have been required.

Or in the Case of Balakot Strikes SOD personel were on hand in overwatch to guide the bombs in and do a on ground BDA.

 

[Waanar]

GARUDs were caught with their pants down after our guy (Wing Cdr. Abhinandan) crashed in Porki territory. They should be trained to higher standard than regular considering the task they're supposed to do and the risk they will face in enemy territory but I've never heard of them doing anything beyond CI ops. If nothing, the IAF should roll them out more often and keep them on a high op tempo or should at the very least stop promoting them as SF and make them something more akin to RAF regiment to guard their bases in wartime and use as Airman with an infantryman role.
Kuch confirm nahi hai, kabhi RR ke saath, kabhi Marshal ke bodyguards, kabhi Pathankot me base guards, kabhi QRT, kabhi Naxals ke saath kabaddi.
Pichhle 10 saalon se sunn raha hu "They'll catch up, they'll catch up". Kab hoga catch up? When will they actually be the backbone of complex air ops and CSAR and evoke the same respect and awe as the Paras and Marcos?

 

[ALBY]

Whats the practical logic behind keeping SFF away from army? If its for doing cladestine ops, then there is SG just like CIA's SAD. SFF should be incorporated into army and should be modelled around 75th Ranger regmt and some of them. Should be deputed to future SOD just like JScoc had done with 75th. Btw there is no denying that, thanks to keeping away from army, they got some better equipment than regular Paras.

 

[ezsasa]

This exercise seems to be in at a very preliminary stages, based on their gear..

Long way to go, no point breaking our heads over this atleast for a couple of years.

Give it time, let it evolve..
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Andaman Nicobar Command (ANC) under @HQ_IDS_India conducted Defence of Andaman & Nicobar Tri Service Exercise #DANX19 from 14 to 18 Oct 2019.
Alongside forces under ANC, Special Forces of newly formed Armed Forces Special Operations Division (AFSOD), took part in the Exercise.

 

[abingdonboy]

Pakis failed in their objective to hit Indian strategic targets and were intercepted by an Indian contingent 1/4 the size of their package.

Losing an F 16 to a MiG 21 is a poor trade. Their original idea was to down a few MKIs and scoot while they bombed us. The bombing failed and the AMRAAMs were jammed by us.

With Meteor missiles, the no escape zone is 100km and the range is 150km. Astra coming online means we have a 110km BVRAAM across all platforms. Combine this with the S400 and you see an absolute dominance across all sectors.

IAF has had dominance in all sectors for decades, doesn’t change anything. What counts is willingness to use them.

after the WC was shot down and Pakis launched at Indian targets there should have been an Indian response.

once again Indian “leadership” succumbed to dhoti shivering. I’m guessing their masters in Washington were badgering them to not take it any further.

the initiative that India had at Balkot was lost within days, Pakis can rightly claim they levelled the playing field. A failed terrorist state humbled a country that wants to project itself as a future super power