Indian Special Forces (archived)

[uoftotaku]

Why don't one of us do attempt to join UKSF and offer our services for free due to deshbhakti? XD

On a serious note, no. Seriously. Who wants to do that?

Even the local British Indians don't volunteer much in the military due to systematic racism they face in the ranks. British military has huge issues recruiting minorities and a well publicised problem with racism in the officer ranks. Why would anyone from outside subject themselves to abuse and humiliation for another country? Days of Raj are over

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Why don't one of us do attempt to join UKSF and offer our services for free due to deshbhakti? XD

On a serious note, no. Seriously. Who wants to do that?

On a serious note indian army is one of the most battle harden armies from desert to to highest ranges of Himalayas or deep forest of northeast. Or daily fighting insurgency.


Metal of indian army was clearly seen in 1999 war.
can be said that other armies from the United States and Europe might have been better trained, armed and equipped, even more technically savvy than their Indian counterparts, with devastating firepower, air support and all the resources at their beck and call. But when it boils down to sheer performance and acts of valour on the battlefield, the frugally oriented Indian soldiery is in a class of its own. Their DNA is beyond comparisonThe much vaunted SEALs, Green Berets, SAS or specialized battle groups like the Rangers and Marines, whose prowess has been overhyped and exaggerated by Hollywood and given a larger than life image, could have probably met their Waterloo in Kargil, where every crevice and deformity acted as a death trap.

 

[uoftotaku]

On a serious note indian army is one of the most battle harden armies from desert to to highest ranges of Himalayas or deep forest of northeast. Or daily fighting insurgency.


Metal of indian army was clearly seen in 1999 war.
can be said that other armies from the United States and Europe might have been better trained, armed and equipped, even more technically savvy than their Indian counterparts, with devastating firepower, air support and all the resources at their beck and call. But when it boils down to sheer performance and acts of valour on the battlefield, the frugally oriented Indian soldiery is in a class of its own. Their DNA is beyond comparisonThe much vaunted SEALs, Green Berets, SAS or specialized battle groups like the Rangers and Marines, whose prowess has been overhyped and exaggerated by Hollywood and given a larger than life image, could have probably met their Waterloo in Kargil, where every crevice and deformity acted as a death trap.

Well said. This topic of comparison of our boys with western types comes up on this thread every couple of months. Seems people cannot look past the gucci gear to see where real skills hide

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

#Equipment_Update
Rashtriya Rifles GHATAK Commando
PATKA wrapped on MKU Ballistic Helmet ( Trials done before fielding & Combined Weight around < 3 KG )
Romanian Pm Md
FAB DEFENSE Dust Cover with rails & Quad Rail Handguard + Flashlight
Bharat Electronics Limited Passive Night Vision Sight

 

[Waanar]

On a serious note indian army is one of the most battle harden armies from desert to to highest ranges of Himalayas or deep forest of northeast. Or daily fighting insurgency.


Metal of indian army was clearly seen in 1999 war.
can be said that other armies from the United States and Europe might have been better trained, armed and equipped, even more technically savvy than their Indian counterparts, with devastating firepower, air support and all the resources at their beck and call. But when it boils down to sheer performance and acts of valour on the battlefield, the frugally oriented Indian soldiery is in a class of its own. Their DNA is beyond comparisonThe much vaunted SEALs, Green Berets, SAS or specialized battle groups like the Rangers and Marines, whose prowess has been overhyped and exaggerated by Hollywood and given a larger than life image, could have probably met their Waterloo in Kargil, where every crevice and deformity acted as a death trap.

I don't doubt that there is a lot of hollywoodization of western SOFs and that Indian, UK and American SOFs are the only ones which can operate on any terrain, from tundras to tropical jungles but if we get into this mindset that we are good enough, that'd be wrong. Let me show you what I mean-

The germans are training their police by an ex Israeli special forces soldier. And it's a regular occurence. Let that sink in.
The last time Yamam members came to assist in formation of Mumbai's Force One, there was such a hullaboo by the media. After the initial training, nope. No more cross training.
If the germans sat down and started naysaying with "Meh, we killed so many jews in WW2 and fought so many Armies, we are better", that wouldn't work. See the Bundeswehr. Man, I've talked to a few US AFSOC members and they said the Bundeswehr is worse than the Saudis in anything other than urban and armored warfare.
Warfare is not a stationary work profile like carpentry. It's dynamic like pentesting. You keep exploiting bugs and your rival keeps fixing it and it goes on and on and if your friend has some piece of code or tool which can make it easier for you, YOU GODDAMN TAKE IT. XP
And I've heard many Indians say that an Indian soldier is better trained than USA's or UK's. Are you serious?
Do you think it matters if we fight with WW2 era weapons and manage to win a few battles against the odds and lose the war?

It's all about who wins. Tech, equipment (or lack thereof) and cowardice (or lack thereof) doesn't matter. If we want the military to give us this intrinsic satisfaction that our soldiers fight under-equipped and have a weaker support, then it's okay.
If we want to win wars and keep the country secure, it's not.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

I don't doubt that there is a lot of hollywoodization of western SOFs and that Indian, UK and American SOFs are the only ones which can operate on any terrain, from tundras to tropical jungles but if we get into this mindset that we are good enough, that'd be wrong. Let me show you what I mean-

The germans are training their police by an ex Israeli special forces soldier. And it's a regular occurence. Let that sink in.
The last time Yamam members came to assist in formation of Mumbai's Force One, there was such a hullaboo by the media. After the initial training, nope. No more cross training.
If the germans sat down and started naysaying with "Meh, we killed so many jews in WW2 and fought so many Armies, we are better", that wouldn't work. See the Bundeswehr. Man, I've talked to a few US AFSOC members and they said the Bundeswehr is worse than the Saudis in anything other than urban and armored warfare.
Warfare is not a stationary work profile like carpentry. It's dynamic like pentesting. You keep exploiting bugs and your rival keeps fixing it and it goes on and on.
And I've heard many Indians say that an Indian soldier is better trained than USA's or UK's. Are you serious?
Do you think it matters if we fight with WW2 era weapons and manage to win a few battles against the odds and lose the war?

It's all about who wins. Tech, equipment (or lack thereof) and cowardice (or lack thereof) doesn't matter. If we want the military to give us this intrinsic satisfaction that our soldiers fight under-equipped and have a weaker support, then it's okay.
If we want to win wars and keep the country secure, it's not.

We all saw how Vietnam peasants destroyed the American forces just because of there better skills in jungle warfare. Ak-47 is not a world war 2 era gun nether is ak-203.

In 2003, a group of about 100 US Special Forces soldiers completed a three-week counter-insurgency combat training at the institute. The exercise, code-named Balance Iroquois, saw them undergo an intensive exercise along with soldiers from the Indian Army's Para (Special Forces) at the CIJWS. Troops were trained to feed on venomous vipers, dogs and monkeys as part of military exercises to sharpen their skills in jungle survival and combat.

Indian Army soldiers and US Army and National Guard soldiers trained together in Exercise Yudh Abhyas 04. The two forces focused on reflexive firing, ambush, jungle patrolling, survival in the jungle and a fast roping technique called slithering. France, UK, Israel and Italy are the latest to have sought India's help in training their soldiers in counter-insurgency operations at this elite facility.

Indian army currently controls highest altitude battlefield that that capabilities are not generated without skills.

139 militants neutralized by Army in Jammu & Kashmir till August of this year with special operations only not damaging the area and other civilians homes and all

Leave PARA S-F alone in real life scenario RR-19 Can give tough time to any of your special forces.

 

[Deathstar]

I don't doubt that there is a lot of hollywoodization of western SOFs and that Indian, UK and American SOFs are the only ones which can operate on any terrain, from tundras to tropical jungles but if we get into this mindset that we are good enough, that'd be wrong. Let me show you what I mean-

The germans are training their police by an ex Israeli special forces soldier. And it's a regular occurence. Let that sink in.
The last time Yamam members came to assist in formation of Mumbai's Force One, there was such a hullaboo by the media. After the initial training, nope. No more cross training.
If the germans sat down and started naysaying with "Meh, we killed so many jews in WW2 and fought so many Armies, we are better", that wouldn't work. See the Bundeswehr. Man, I've talked to a few US AFSOC members and they said the Bundeswehr is worse than the Saudis in anything other than urban and armored warfare.
Warfare is not a stationary work profile like carpentry. It's dynamic like pentesting. You keep exploiting bugs and your rival keeps fixing it and it goes on and on and if your friend has some piece of code or tool which can make it easier for you, YOU GODDAMN TAKE IT. XP
And I've heard many Indians say that an Indian soldier is better trained than USA's or UK's. Are you serious?
Do you think it matters if we fight with WW2 era weapons and manage to win a few battles against the odds and lose the war?

It's all about who wins. Tech, equipment (or lack thereof) and cowardice (or lack thereof) doesn't matter. If we want the military to give us this intrinsic satisfaction that our soldiers fight under-equipped and have a weaker support, then it's okay.
If we want to win wars and keep the country secure, it's not.

I feel Israelis do train our soldiers in urban COIN ops and overall counter terror ops. They are one of the best. I had read even IPS ops have training in Israel for a time period.
You are right ,we should always stay grounded and strive to improve and take advantage of all thats possible.
US navy seals are probably the best , many countries SOFs are based on Americans.
Everything is mutual , even we share our exp with them. We are probably one of the best in jungle warfare.
General Montgomery was highly fond of guerilla tactics of Chatrapati Shivaji.

 

[Waanar]

We all saw how Vietnam peasants destroyed the American forces just because of there better skills in jungle warfare. Ak-47 is not a world war 2 era gun nether is ak-203.

In 2003, a group of about 100 US Special Forces soldiers completed a three-week counter-insurgency combat training at the institute. The exercise, code-named Balance Iroquois, saw them undergo an intensive exercise along with soldiers from the Indian Army's Para (Special Forces) at the CIJWS. Troops were trained to feed on venomous vipers, dogs and monkeys as part of military exercises to sharpen their skills in jungle survival and combat.

Indian Army soldiers and US Army and National Guard soldiers trained together in Exercise Yudh Abhyas 04. The two forces focused on reflexive firing, ambush, jungle patrolling, survival in the jungle and a fast roping technique called slithering. France, UK, Israel and Italy are the latest to have sought India's help in training their soldiers in counter-insurgency operations at this elite facility.

Indian army currently controls highest altitude battlefield that that capabilities are not generated without skills.

139 militants neutralized by Army in Jammu & Kashmir till August of this year with special operations only not damaging the area and other civilians homes and all

Leave PARA S-F alone on real life scenario RR-19 Can give tough time to any of your special forces.

Again, (And I don't want to come off as a keyboard warrior) I'm not saying our guys are less trained. I'm saying that this thing where we compensate lack of gear with "Skillz" and console ourselves due to the pathetic pace of modernization should end.
And all colonial era hate aside, western special forces can always teach our guys a few things much like our guys can teach them a few.

And I always see Vietnam brought up. Vietnam was a guerrila effort, brother. The ROE change pretty damn quick in GW.
They hid behind the civilian populace and perform hit n' run tactics, making the war costly for the Americans. I'd rather have the Indian Army remain an Army than transforming into a resistance movement with un-uniformed soldiers and be able to defeat any military head to head conventionally than resorting to guerrila warfare after the columns have been shattered. Remember, we had our own vietnam as IPKF in Sri Lanka against LTTE.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Again, (And I don't want to come off as a keyboard warrior) I'm not saying our guys are less trained. I'm saying that this thing where we compensate lack of gear with "Skillz" and console ourselves due to the pathetic pace of modernization should end.
And all colonial era hate aside, western special forces can always teach our guys a few things much like our guys can teach them a few.

Indian army conducts exercises with everyone be it Chinese or Americans or Russian or British or French. But you cannot beg someone to please train us this or that indian army have a global image it's not about colonial era thinking or that. I guess if army had a need to send certain troops to foreign to train they would have been doing that.

Operation Khukri was a rescue mission conducted by the 2 PARA (SF) in Sierra Leone in June 2000. About 90 operators commanded by Major (now Lt. Col.) Harinder Sood were airlifted from New Delhi to spearhead the mission to rescue 223 men of the 5/8 Gurkha Rifles who were surrounded and held captive by Revolutionary United Front (RUF) rebels for over 75 days, just 90 Para (SF) forced 2000-5000 members of the Revolutionary United Front (RUF) divided into 5 battalions to surrender. This ultimately led to the liberation of Freetown.

Modi government is now giving and updating gears of our troops everything takes time but skill sett of our guy's and moral is not low. India also won this competition. Chinese forces have better outfit than ours but that doesn't mean they are battle harden.

 

[armyofhind]

we get into this mindset that we are good enough

Nobody apart from people in online forums get into this mindset.

SF in India has substantial cross training with foreign SOF, everything does not need to be advertised. SFTS and CIJWS have a section of foreign troops every course, and the learning there is two way.

I personally train under the man who teaches the close combat system to SF, and I know for a fact that he's taken instructors from the Phillipines along with him to Nahan.

The last time Yamam members came to assist in formation of Mumbai's Force One, there was such a hullaboo by the media. After the initial training, nope. No more cross training.

Dont know about Force One but NSG is still training with them.

And I've heard many Indians say that an Indian soldier is better trained than USA's or UK's

The number of rounds allocated per soldier per year for firing practice training are actually higher in the Indian Army than the US Army. For Infantry that is. But that's just one aspect of training.

Its a lot about Operational Scenarios as well. US Military trains for a logistically heavy, technologically intensive doctrine, concentrating heavily on combined arms. Meant to fight expeditionary wars.

We train for terrain based scenarios heavily, because our main objective is to defend our borders, not prepare for war in a foreign land.
But even here, things are changing... the newly formulated, (or in the process of formulation) IBG's are testimony to that.

 

[Waanar]

Indian army conducts exercises with everyone be it Chinese or Americans or Russian or British or French. But you cannot beg someone to please train us this or that indian army have a global image it's not about colonial era thinking or that. I guess if army had a need to send certain troops to foreign to train they would have been doing that.

Operation Khukri was a rescue mission conducted by the 2 PARA (SF) in Sierra Leone in June 2000. About 90 operators commanded by Major (now Lt. Col.) Harinder Sood were airlifted from New Delhi to spearhead the mission to rescue 223 men of the 5/8 Gurkha Rifles who were surrounded and held captive by Revolutionary United Front (RUF) rebels for over 75 days, just 90 Para (SF) forced 2000-5000 members of the Revolutionary United Front (RUF) divided into 5 battalions to surrender. This ultimately led to the liberation of Freetown.

Modi government is now giving and updating gears of our troops everything takes time but skill sett of our guy's and moral is not low. India also won this competition. Chinese forces have better outfit than ours but that doesn't mean they are battle harden.

Mate, when did I talk anywhere about begging anyone?
I just said to keep an open mind. Also, the same Indian Army did lose to LTTE or, as sir Dalbir Singh said "the Lungis" in Sri Lanka.
We can't simply ignore the failures and hype the victories.

 

[Waanar]

Nobody apart from people in online forums get into this mindset.

SF in India has substantial cross training with foreign SOF, everything does not need to be advertised. SFTS and CIJWS have a section of foreign troops every course, and the learning there is two way.

I personally train under the man who teaches the close combat system to SF, and I know for a fact that he's taken instructors from the Phillipines along with him to Nahan.


Dont know about Force One but NSG is still training with them.


The number of rounds allocated per soldier per year for firing practice training are actually higher in the Indian Army than the US Army. For Infantry that is. But that's just one aspect of training.

Its a lot about Operational Scenarios as well. US Military trains for a logistically heavy, technologically intensive doctrine, concentrating heavily on combined arms. Meant to fight expeditionary wars.

We train for terrain based scenarios heavily, because our main objective is to defend our borders, not prepare for war in a foreign land.
But even here, things are changing... the newly formulated, (or in the process of formulation) IBG's are testimony to that.

Just arguing against jingoism, sir. No ill intent.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Mate, when did I talk anywhere about begging anyone?
I just said to keep an open mind. Also, the same Indian Army did lose to LTTE or, as sir Dalbir Singh said "the Lungis" in Sri Lanka.
We can't simply ignore the failures and hype the victories.

The late 1980s saw the Para (SF) in action in Sri Lanka, as part of Operation Pawan. However, the lack of proper planning by the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF), and insufficient intelligence on the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam's (LTTE) whereabouts, caused the initial heli-borne assault on Jaffna University on 11 October 1987 to be a tragic failure. However it was because of the efforts of the Para (SF) that later led to the capture of the Jaffna peninsula, forcing the LTTE militants to take refuge in the forests.

Six soldiers lost their lives in that mission. Due to their superior training, the Para (SF) took refuge under a house, after they were misled by a youth who offered his services to help the commandos track Velupillai Prabhakaran but instead took them on a wild goose chase. They engaged the enemy for 24 hours and picked up all their dead with their weapons after reinforcements arrived the next morning.

After the failed assault on Jaffna City, the 10 Para (SF) participated in a heli-borne assault on the town of Moolai 23 kilometres (14 miles) to the north west in November 1987. More than 200 LTTE guerrillas were killed and an arms depot seized. In order to give the commandos battle experience, 1 Para (SF) was rotated home in early 1988 and replaced by 9 Para (SF). Or surgical strikes.

This battalion was scheduled to return home in June 1988, but the tour of duty was extended due to a planned air assault into the coastal swamps around Mullaittivu. The mission was a success, in that it located several arms caches. The 9 Para (SF) also provided 12 men for the security of the Indian High Commission in Sri Lanka.
Hmmmmmmmmmm. At that time indian army learned it's lesson and changed the guns what about other operations? In Maldives or in Myanmar or in pok? Or in Kargil or in 1971 or in blue star. Or in 1999.
As i said army works with everyone but indian army training and skill set is not below anyone.

It's not jingoism you are saying these guy's are better or best. But in reality our guy's are not less than anyone.

In 1999 war winning was extremely difficult but IA army did that any i say any army of the world would have find that war pain in the balls in which you need to fight enemies which are so above you without any air support.

 

[Waanar]

The late 1980s saw the Para (SF) in action in Sri Lanka, as part of Operation Pawan. However, the lack of proper planning by the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF), and insufficient intelligence on the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam's (LTTE) whereabouts, caused the initial heli-borne assault on Jaffna University on 11 October 1987 to be a tragic failure. However it was because of the efforts of the Para (SF) that later led to the capture of the Jaffna peninsula, forcing the LTTE militants to take refuge in the forests.

Six soldiers lost their lives in that mission. Due to their superior training, the Para (SF) took refuge under a house, after they were misled by a youth who offered his services to help the commandos track Velupillai Prabhakaran but instead took them on a wild goose chase. They engaged the enemy for 24 hours and picked up all their dead with their weapons after reinforcements arrived the next morning.

After the failed assault on Jaffna City, the 10 Para (SF) participated in a heli-borne assault on the town of Moolai 23 kilometres (14 miles) to the north west in November 1987. More than 200 LTTE guerrillas were killed and an arms depot seized. In order to give the commandos battle experience, 1 Para (SF) was rotated home in early 1988 and replaced by 9 Para (SF).

This battalion was scheduled to return home in June 1988, but the tour of duty was extended due to a planned air assault into the coastal swamps around Mullaittivu. The mission was a success, in that it located several arms caches. The 9 Para (SF) also provided 12 men for the security of the Indian High Commission in Sri Lanka.
Hmmmmmmmmmm. At that time indian army learned it's lesson and changed the guns what about other operations? In Maldives or in Myanmar or in pok? Or in Kargil or in 1971 or in blue star. Or in 1999.
As i said army works with everyone but indian army training and skill set is not below anyone.

It's not jingoism you are saying these guy's are better or best. But in reality our guy's are not less than anyone.

In 1999 war winning was extremely difficult but IA army did that any i say any army of the world would have find that war pain in the balls in which you need to fight enemies which are so above you without any air support.

Sir, I'll request you to please go back and read what I wrote. Nowhere have I said or even suggested that our guys are any less than the western special forces and that the westerns are the best (tier 1 doesn't mean "the best", it's an american grading for their own SOFs and is speculatively applied to other SOFs as an approximate measure of capabilities).
Also, I don't want to turn this thread into a personal argument space and piss of the mods so I'm just going to end it here unless I find something worthy of input.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I dont know how many of you would appreciate this but.. If we are creating another unit of SF with under 35 years age guys who have high school education then we are creating another Para SF battalion and nothing "special".

 

[binayak95]

I dont know how many of you would appreciate this but.. If we are creating another unit of SF with under 35 years age guys who have high school education then we are creating another Para SF battalion and nothing "special".

Hear hear.
SF means bushcraft, SF means counter-espionage, trained in the art of recruiting and cultivating assets SF means the ability to compute numbers on the fly, to make decisions and weigh risks. Every operator, an officer of the calibre of the finest men.
We need to return to the basics of CIT X and CIT J. And keep an edge in teams that excel in the art of painting messages in RED.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Hear hear.
SF means bushcraft, SF means counter-espionage, trained in the art of recruiting and cultivating assets SF means the ability to compute numbers on the fly, to make decisions and weigh risks. Every operator, an officer of the calibre of the finest men.
We need to return to the basics of CIT X and CIT J. And keep an edge in teams that excel in the art of painting messages in RED.

For that u need experienced professionals with good education,training and exposure.

Right now our SF has hard hitting hitman type of operators.

Young blood plus less education and exposure is not the best recruit to carry out such tasks and hence if this is the criteria like NSG then i dont think we can achieve the true objective of a tier 1 sf.

 

[mupper]

See the Bundeswehr. Man, I've talked to a few US AFSOC members and they said the Bundeswehr is worse than the Saudis in anything other than urban and armored warfare.
.

You talked to some air force guys who told you the Germans can't do anything beyond FIBUA or armoured warfare?

hmm....

 

[Waanar]

You talked to some air force guys who told you the Germans can't do anything beyond FIBUA or armoured warfare?

hmm....

Haha. Let me explain. They were AFSOC. One combat controller and two JTACs. All of them had combat experience in Afghanistan and one had been to Iraq as well. He also worked as a PMC in South Africa hunting poachers (sounds easy, is not) and all were pulling security for the ship my brother was a manager on. Trust me, they were legit.
There was also an Australian guy (more like a bitch) who tried out for and failed the selection for 2nd commando regiment who I jokingly called vanilla so he refused to talk to my brother until I got off the ship.
All of them nodded their head when calling Germans "Misfortune in boots".
Lets not derail the thread though.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Mate, when did I talk anywhere about begging anyone?
I just said to keep an open mind. Also, the same Indian Army did lose to LTTE or, as sir Dalbir Singh said "the Lungis" in Sri Lanka.
We can't simply ignore the failures and hype the victories.

Only an ignorant moron would claim such a thing.