Indian Special Forces (archived)

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

PUBG?



..................................

Its a game...try it.

........

 

[Indx TechStyle]

PUBG?



..................................

Its a game...try it.

........

Don't do, it will destroy your schedules, whatever you got.

Sorry to say but...

You will be better equipped in the first 5 minutes after your drop in Pubg than the top Indian SF unit.

If you can get vests, headgears, top class assault rifles and sub machine guns lying on roads, you'd be better off against a trillion dollar military budget.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Don't do, it will destroy your schedules, whatever you got.

If you can vests, headgears, top class assault rifles and sub machine guns lying on roads, you'd be better off against a trillion dollar military budget.

What i am saying is the accesories are still lacking in our kit..

No Suppressors,no new optics for tavor,same old shit.

I expected 2020 to be better...not a lot has changed in the last 15 years.

And that PubG comment cannot be said about Other SF units in the world like for example the first 5 minutes of your drop in Pubg cannot make u better equipped than SAS troops or Seals or even Spetsnaz.

 

[Defenceanalyst91]

Indian army is the most backward institution in India. Most of the top brass r honey trapped by Russian intelligence. They will continue to waste billions in Russian tin cans aka t90. But infantry soldiers will remain poorly equipped forever.
No wonder they cancelled F-INSAS programme

 

[Indx TechStyle]

And that PubG comment cannot be said about Other SF units in the world like for example the first 5 minutes of your drop in Pubg cannot make u better equipped than SAS troops or Seals or even Spetsnaz.

Wrong, at least here.
If you know where to land, you'll get more.:biggrin2:

 

[abingdonboy]

Indian army is the most backward institution in India. Most of the top brass r honey trapped by Russian intelligence. They will continue to waste billions in Russian tin cans aka t90. But infantry soldiers will remain poorly equipped forever.
No wonder they cancelled F-INSAS programme

I am more and more inclined to believe this.

Navy and even airforce are now working with local industry to build far more complex systems but the army is still importing gloves and boots!

Every attempt to develop indigenous systems hasn’t been undermined by the army- tanks, IFVs, rifles, arty etc etc etc

I just don’t understand why the MOD and Govt lets these corrupt b@stards get away with it for all these years. The rot surely goes far deeper than just the army.....

 

[rishivashista13]

Even the Tavors are starting to show their age. They aren’t exactly “spec’d” up, just bog standard rifles with some sights.

When compared to these US SF guns (I guess HK 416), Tavor is nowhere lagging behind. But in some cases it looks superior, more compact, less recoil, same performance range and accuracy etc. I think Tavor has no compitition till now.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[binayak95]

When compared to these US SF guns (I guess HK 416), Tavor is nowhere lagging behind. But in some cases it looks superior, more compact, less recoil, same performance range and accuracy etc. I think Tavor has no compitition till now.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

The gun doesnt matter as much as accessories. The Mk12 SPR is pre 9/11. Imagine that. Its the entire ecosystem - laser/IR sights, advanced optics, mounting options, lights - nothing that you cant put on a Tar21. But only if you have access to them.

 

[Anikastha]

Wrong, at least here.
If you know where to land, you'll get more.:biggrin2:

Georgopool , military base , nova

 

[rishivashista13]

The gun doesnt matter as much as accessories. The Mk12 SPR is pre 9/11. Imagine that. Its the entire ecosystem - laser/IR sights, advanced optics, mounting options, lights - nothing that you cant put on a Tar21. But only if you have access to them.

Agreed, Optics is the area where we are lagging and mainly Night optics (IR, NV). Other then that, Tavor is an ideal platform for CQB.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[aditya10r]

Its a game...try it.

........

@abingdonboy

For love of life

DONT

 

[abingdonboy]

Agreed, Optics is the area where we are lagging and mainly Night optics (IR, NV). Other then that, Tavor is an ideal platform for CQB.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

Give a soldier a Tavor and call him special forces- this is a disease the senior brass of all threee services seem to be inflicted with.

Everything from head to toe on India’s SF solderis needs an overhaul.

 

[rishivashista13]

Give a soldier a Tavor and call him special forces- this is a disease the senior brass of all threee services seem to be inflicted with.

Everything from head to toe on India’s SF solderis needs an overhaul.

Its not about Tavor but the training which makes them special. But yea, a major reform is required in gears, optics and accessories.
A company level immidiate purchasing facility should provided to special forces. So that they can get anything as required in very short period of time.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[rkhanna]

Its not about Tavor but the training which makes them special.

Training and Gear go hand in hand. If shitte Gear then you have limited scope for training.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Training and Gear go hand in hand. If shitte Gear then you have limited scope for training.

Right.

What could have training and balls got US without Technology and equipments in Op Geronimo.

 

[mayfair]

Training and Gear go hand in hand. If shitte Gear then you have limited scope for training.

+108

Our best should be equipped with the best so that they can do best what they have been trained for.

 

[Immanuel]

Again we have silly comments from BS arm chair nobodies about equipment level. In India, take any SF, the man is the weapon, his finely honed senses his primary optics. The rest is hogwash, they'll gut the enemy by hook, crook or razor wire. Equipment level is a bit behind. Most of the world's supposed elite will be huffing and puffing in half the areas our SF and regular elite infantry are patrolling at.

The world's supposed elite active in many areas can't go a single mission without close air support (gun ships, fighters), drones. Most engagements end with a 500 pounder being dropped while our SF sneaks across border at will and often in broad daylight, perform heavy hitting raids without any combat aircraft against a far superior enemy that most of these other SF units face.

Sure better vests, helmets, optics, comms, vehicles, weapons are all need of the hour and they will save lives, no question. But to overlook the ability of Indian SF on any day because of old equipment is the last thing on the enemy's mind.

 

[rkhanna]

@Immanuel I apologize - but none of the comments are "Silly". They maybe over exaggerated but the essence holds true.

My 2 Paisa -

Before we talk about Indian SOF units we first need to understand the DISTINCTION between a Commando Unit and a SOF Unit. Indian SF for the most part are Commando Units.

For Example:

There is almost no Capability within the Indian Army SF that US Army Rangers cannot replicate
There is no Capability within MARCOS which the US Marine MARSOC Raiders cannot replicate.

But - US Army Rangers cannot do what US SFGs and Delta do and same for Marines Vs Navy Seals.

That being said - there is no difference in quality of Human Resources in the above US units. (just like in India. Pound for Pound Every Indian Army SF / MARCOS / GARUD is as good a soldier as anyone in SOCOM)

What makes the difference? Tasking

The Primarily tasking of Indian SOF units have become Direct Actions, LRRP and Proximity Security - hallmarks of Commando Units. SOF units need to take Commando Capability one notch higher for Strategic Goals. We in India DO NOT do this.

Strategic goals leads to Tasking which leads to innovative tactics and Equipment which leads to innovative training. (which eventually leads to larger budgets due to prioritizing)

SOCOM budget Vs indian SF budget will alone tell you the gap in training. A US Navy Seal shoots 300 rounds a week. How much do we shoot in India?

We have Almost NO Night Fighting Capability, No Capability to fight underground, We have no sniper/Scout capability, our SOF have no HUMINT capability, No Capability within Garud for JTAF tasks, MARCOS a top 6 Naval SOF unit in the 90s now is relegated to obscurity within India itself. Hell we forget that we have Third rare comm systems.

And please don't make an excuse of "CAS" - CAS and SOF warfare go hand in hand. There is NO SOF missions without air component. And EVERY SINGLE INDIAN SF SOLDIER I KNOW WISHES They had the same capability as any of the western forces in terms of air support. And I am not just talking about Specters and Apaches and Predators. SOF units operate under dense ISR / Data Analytic environment backed by extreme Electronic Warfare blankets. We In India (for the size of our forces) do not even have dedicated transports.

The west has truely come to appreciate Special Operations Warfare as a System . Not Soldier. The Constituents of their Task Force Structure is actually enlightening.

For Example on a mission/deployment an Allied Task Force would comprise of something like this

1) ISA/ SAS Increment - Intelligence Support Activity - US Army SFG / SAS Soldiers trained in Humint to be an advance recce force to prep the battlefield in an Urban Area
2) TOC - Mobile Command centers (SCIFs) integrated with Larger ISR (awacs etc) and integrated with the intelligence apparatus - including CIA interrogators etc
3) Snipers - MARSOC / SEALS
4) Assaulter s - SOCOM/ JSOC / GROM / SAS/ SASR/ KSK
5) Forward Air Controllers -
6) QRF - Rangers / 10th mountain
5) Engineers - Alot of time Civilian Contractors working alongside SOF units
6) Transport - 160th SOAR
7) CAS - Drone etc

The above system works and TRAINS as one and That is what creates a SOF capability.

IMO till the early 2000s our army SF had a decent SOF capability (Sierre Leone Rescue / Training of MB / LTTE / Northern Alliance are examples)- then the expansion of SF began.

Not only did they start taking in younger men (with lesser experience) - with more SF units available every theater/area commander started using them as first solution to look better for the promotion board.

SF units in Direct Action missions (that should be the bread and butter and Go to Ghatak units) has now become the norm in CASO operations in Kashmir and NE. Now this is their primary mission and training has also reoriented for the "need of the hour" as that is what the Conventional Military Commanders think their best utilization is.

It is their UTILIZATION that has created the dilution.

Having the most insane Selection program (which we do) does not make you an SOF soldier. 100s of countries across the world with tough selection programs. We have great schools - CIJWS / HAWS etc - but these are essentially teaching advanced commando Skills.

The management of our HR within these SF units has been piss poor by the Conventional Leadership and MOD/Politicos - It comes from Territorial ism and lack of understanding of what needs to be the objective of the SOF.

Saying it again. - Tasking leads to Training leads to Equipment.

 

[rkhanna]

The world's supposed elite active in many areas can't go a single mission without close air support (gun ships, fighters), drones. Most engagements end with a 500 pounder being dropped while our SF sneaks across border at will and often in broad daylight, perform heavy hitting raids without any combat aircraft against a far superior enemy that most of these other SF units face.

Lastly - the above is inherently not true. If you are a SOF geek i will suggest reading these two books

1. Masters of Chaos
2. Relentless Strike - Biography of JSOC

PS - Dont get me wrong. There is a LOT wrong with US SOF as well and a LOT of good within Indian SF units. However I am only concerned with what we can do to improve / evolve.

 

[ezsasa]

Would i be wrong if i say, these kind of setup will not achieved unless our strategic ambition is to covet resources or land beyond our borders.

mandate of IA is to be a defensive force not a expeditionary force. As a defensive force, primary task is to prevent attacks rather than to attack first.

@Immanuel I apologize - but none of the comments are "Silly". They maybe over exaggerated but the essence holds true.

My 2 Paisa -

Before we talk about Indian SOF units we first need to understand the DISTINCTION between a Commando Unit and a SOF Unit. Indian SF for the most part are Commando Units.

For Example:

There is almost no Capability within the Indian Army SF that US Army Rangers cannot replicate
There is no Capability within MARCOS which the US Marine MARSOC Raiders cannot replicate.

But - US Army Rangers cannot do what US SFGs and Delta do and same for Marines Vs Navy Seals.

That being said - there is no difference in quality of Human Resources in the above US units. (just like in India. Pound for Pound Every Indian Army SF / MARCOS / GARUD is as good a soldier as anyone in SOCOM)

What makes the difference? Tasking

The Primarily tasking of Indian SOF units have become Direct Actions, LRRP and Proximity Security - hallmarks of Commando Units. SOF units need to take Commando Capability one notch higher for Strategic Goals. We in India DO NOT do this.

Strategic goals leads to Tasking which leads to innovative tactics and Equipment which leads to innovative training. (which eventually leads to larger budgets due to prioritizing)

SOCOM budget Vs indian SF budget will alone tell you the gap in training. A US Navy Seal shoots 300 rounds a week. How much do we shoot in India?

We have Almost NO Night Fighting Capability, No Capability to fight underground, We have no sniper/Scout capability, our SOF have no HUMINT capability, No Capability within Garud for JTAF tasks, MARCOS a top 6 Naval SOF unit in the 90s now is relegated to obscurity within India itself. Hell we forget that we have Third rare comm systems.

And please don't make an excuse of "CAS" - CAS and SOF warfare go hand in hand. There is NO SOF missions without air component. And EVERY SINGLE INDIAN SF SOLDIER I KNOW WISHES They had the same capability as any of the western forces in terms of air support. And I am not just talking about Specters and Apaches and Predators. SOF units operate under dense ISR / Data Analytic environment backed by extreme Electronic Warfare blankets. We In India (for the size of our forces) do not even have dedicated transports.

The west has truely come to appreciate Special Operations Warfare as a System . Not Soldier. The Constituents of their Task Force Structure is actually enlightening.

For Example on a mission/deployment an Allied Task Force would comprise of something like this

1) ISA/ SAS Increment - Intelligence Support Activity - US Army SFG / SAS Soldiers trained in Humint to be an advance recce force to prep the battlefield in an Urban Area
2) TOC - Mobile Command centers (SCIFs) integrated with Larger ISR (awacs etc) and integrated with the intelligence apparatus - including CIA interrogators etc
3) Snipers - MARSOC / SEALS
4) Assaulter s - SOCOM/ JSOC / GROM / SAS/ SASR/ KSK
5) Forward Air Controllers -
6) QRF - Rangers / 10th mountain
5) Engineers - Alot of time Civilian Contractors working alongside SOF units
6) Transport - 160th SOAR
7) CAS - Drone etc

The above system works and TRAINS as one and That is what creates a SOF capability.

IMO till the early 2000s our army SF had a decent SOF capability (Sierre Leone Rescue / Training of MB / LTTE / Northern Alliance are examples)- then the expansion of SF began.

Not only did they start taking in younger men (with lesser experience) - with more SF units available every theater/area commander started using them as first solution to look better for the promotion board.

SF units in Direct Action missions (that should be the bread and butter and Go to Ghatak units) has now become the norm in CASO operations in Kashmir and NE. Now this is their primary mission and training has also reoriented for the "need of the hour" as that is what the Conventional Military Commanders think their best utilization is.

It is their UTILIZATION that has created the dilution.

Having the most insane Selection program (which we do) does not make you an SOF soldier. 100s of countries across the world with tough selection programs. We have great schools - CIJWS / HAWS etc - but these are essentially teaching advanced commando Skills.

The management of our HR within these SF units has been piss poor by the Conventional Leadership and MOD/Politicos - It comes from Territorial ism and lack of understanding of what needs to be the objective of the SOF.

Saying it again. - Tasking leads to Training leads to Equipment.