Indian Special Forces (archived)

[rkhanna]

Would i be wrong if i say, these kind of setup will not achieved unless our strategic ambition is to covet resources or land beyond our borders.

mandate of IA is to be a defensive force not a expeditionary force. As a defensive force, primary task is to prevent attacks rather than to attack first.

Agreed. 100% but to fight the conflicts of tomorrow - 2030-2040 we need to build the base NOW!

My views: All hypothetical mental masturbation

Even for a Defensive force we need a potent deep strike capability (covert) originating from India's borders

1) A War with China (and in lieu with Pakistan) is a high possibility in the next 20-30 years. Our SOF has to NOT ONLY take the fight deep into tibet but also strike their infra in the IOR - Myanmar / Srilanka / Gwadar etc. I forsee SOF elements Stationing out of Vietnam / Iran / Maldives / Seychelles / Afghanistan even for planning contigencies against our "Near threats"

Expedentiary:

2) As our economy and consumption of natural resources grows it is easily conceivable that we will need a presence in Africa in the future and maybe even the SEA

3) as our diplomatic clout grows we will be more and more drawn into global conflict resolution and partnering with friendly forces - this could mean as far flung as South America.

- As the global supply chain brought on by Demand / Supply flux , Regional Conflicts, Global Warming becomes more unstable we will inherenthly be forced to become "expeditionary"


All of the above - requires LONG term planning, investment and patience.

 

[rkhanna]

PS - Dont forget that the legacy of the Modern Indian Army is that of an Expdentiary Force.

In WWI 750,000 Indians under arms was the Wrecking Ball that brought an end to the Ottomturk Empire single handedly. Post the War Indian Soldiers were stationed from Bagdhad to Egypt from Turkey to Haifa and controlled everything in between.

 

[ezsasa]

PS - Dont forget that the legacy of the Modern Indian Army is that of an Expdentiary Force.

In WWI 750,000 Indians under arms was the Wrecking Ball that brought an end to the Ottomturk Empire single handedly. Post the War Indian Soldiers were stationed from Bagdhad to Egypt from Turkey to Haifa and controlled everything in between.

"was" is the operative word...............................................

 

[rkhanna]

"was" is the operative word...............................................

But still very much in our DNA - ;p just look at our UN Deployment Schedules

 

[rishivashista13]

Would i be wrong if i say, these kind of setup will not achieved unless our strategic ambition is to covet resources or land beyond our borders.

mandate of IA is to be a defensive force not a expeditionary force. As a defensive force, primary task is to prevent attacks rather than to attack first.

We need not to use hard power beyond our borders unless it is the only option left. No need to follow America every time.
We can get Resources and required land via establishing deep friendly relations. We are not China who will every time use it's military might for fulfilling ambitious.
India is the next potential world leader, some time we also called it as Vishwa guru. We will have to behave like that.

But off course that doesn't mean that we need not to modernize our SF......

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[Immanuel]

@Immanuel I apologize - but none of the comments are "Silly". They maybe over exaggerated but the essence holds true.

My 2 Paisa -

Before we talk about Indian SOF units we first need to understand the DISTINCTION between a Commando Unit and a SOF Unit. Indian SF for the most part are Commando Units.

For Example:

There is almost no Capability within the Indian Army SF that US Army Rangers cannot replicate
There is no Capability within MARCOS which the US Marine MARSOC Raiders cannot replicate.

But - US Army Rangers cannot do what US SFGs and Delta do and same for Marines Vs Navy Seals.

That being said - there is no difference in quality of Human Resources in the above US units. (just like in India. Pound for Pound Every Indian Army SF / MARCOS / GARUD is as good a soldier as anyone in SOCOM)

What makes the difference? Tasking

The Primarily tasking of Indian SOF units have become Direct Actions, LRRP and Proximity Security - hallmarks of Commando Units. SOF units need to take Commando Capability one notch higher for Strategic Goals. We in India DO NOT do this.

Strategic goals leads to Tasking which leads to innovative tactics and Equipment which leads to innovative training. (which eventually leads to larger budgets due to prioritizing)

SOCOM budget Vs indian SF budget will alone tell you the gap in training. A US Navy Seal shoots 300 rounds a week. How much do we shoot in India?

We have Almost NO Night Fighting Capability, No Capability to fight underground, We have no sniper/Scout capability, our SOF have no HUMINT capability, No Capability within Garud for JTAF tasks, MARCOS a top 6 Naval SOF unit in the 90s now is relegated to obscurity within India itself. Hell we forget that we have Third rare comm systems.

And please don't make an excuse of "CAS" - CAS and SOF warfare go hand in hand. There is NO SOF missions without air component. And EVERY SINGLE INDIAN SF SOLDIER I KNOW WISHES They had the same capability as any of the western forces in terms of air support. And I am not just talking about Specters and Apaches and Predators. SOF units operate under dense ISR / Data Analytic environment backed by extreme Electronic Warfare blankets. We In India (for the size of our forces) do not even have dedicated transports.

The west has truely come to appreciate Special Operations Warfare as a System . Not Soldier. The Constituents of their Task Force Structure is actually enlightening.

For Example on a mission/deployment an Allied Task Force would comprise of something like this

1) ISA/ SAS Increment - Intelligence Support Activity - US Army SFG / SAS Soldiers trained in Humint to be an advance recce force to prep the battlefield in an Urban Area
2) TOC - Mobile Command centers (SCIFs) integrated with Larger ISR (awacs etc) and integrated with the intelligence apparatus - including CIA interrogators etc
3) Snipers - MARSOC / SEALS
4) Assaulter s - SOCOM/ JSOC / GROM / SAS/ SASR/ KSK
5) Forward Air Controllers -
6) QRF - Rangers / 10th mountain
5) Engineers - Alot of time Civilian Contractors working alongside SOF units
6) Transport - 160th SOAR
7) CAS - Drone etc

The above system works and TRAINS as one and That is what creates a SOF capability.

IMO till the early 2000s our army SF had a decent SOF capability (Sierre Leone Rescue / Training of MB / LTTE / Northern Alliance are examples)- then the expansion of SF began.

Not only did they start taking in younger men (with lesser experience) - with more SF units available every theater/area commander started using them as first solution to look better for the promotion board.

SF units in Direct Action missions (that should be the bread and butter and Go to Ghatak units) has now become the norm in CASO operations in Kashmir and NE. Now this is their primary mission and training has also reoriented for the "need of the hour" as that is what the Conventional Military Commanders think their best utilization is.

It is their UTILIZATION that has created the dilution.

Having the most insane Selection program (which we do) does not make you an SOF soldier. 100s of countries across the world with tough selection programs. We have great schools - CIJWS / HAWS etc - but these are essentially teaching advanced commando Skills.

The management of our HR within these SF units has been piss poor by the Conventional Leadership and MOD/Politicos - It comes from Territorial ism and lack of understanding of what needs to be the objective of the SOF.

Saying it again. - Tasking leads to Training leads to Equipment.

No apologies dude, they are valid point, however in the quest for kit lets not disrespect the ethos, training or abilities of the men, they are truly world class.

Agreed with everything here but the primary unit of any SF is the man and the ethos has always been to ensure the man will accomplish his mission even in death. The rest are tools and there are wide set of tools that need to be adopted. The biggest need of the hour is structural reform of the entire Military establishment. While there are many SF units out there who train well, our soldiers are just better in both conventional and unconventional roles.

Western SF of today are essentially very well trained in COIN, they will have their asses hand to them in a conventional fight! Conventional warfare requires a different set of operational mindset and very different way of working which IA excels at. Western SF tricks work on jihadis in caves but won't work against well armed nuclear neighbors. Sure new technology will help their fight but all their plans, large drones, CAS would be shot to shit in a real conventional fight against a worthy adversary, then it comes down to good old fashion soldiering.

While there is no question integrated battle groups, SOCOM are mandatory. Ray sahab (RIP) always insisted going back to basics of good soldiering, that is what wins fights. Tools are just an equation of budget and process. Get the process smooth and keep the gravy flowing and it becomes easy to get the gear the boys need. At the moment the process to buy anything is a cluster fuck. Also where is the money? As said a gradual increase of defense budget from 2 to 5% of GDP over the next decade in phases is a must if we want play grab ass in 2030 with our dick firmly in our hands.

Else we'll end up with a #metoo

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

SF .......................................................................

 

[abingdonboy]

SF .......................................................................

This is getting appalling now. Shitty helmets, T-shirts, bog standard rifles, no integrated comns, no decent plate carriers and skateboarder type knee and elbow pads.

What a bloody joke. These are the most elite soldiers of the world’s 5th largest economy?


I’m really starting to even question the SF soldiers themselves, hard to believe they can train with some of the best SFs on the planet then turn up like THIS.

I’ve seen African SFs and militias that are better equipped. These guys wouldn’t even make the cut for most nation’s police special response units.

It seems they are going backwards, they aren’t better equipped than 10 years ago and in some cases seem to have regressed.

 

[Darth Malgus]

This is getting appalling now. Shitty helmets, T-shirts, bog standard rifles, no integrated comns, no decent plate carriers and skateboarder type knee and elbow pads.

What a bloody joke. These are the most elite soldiers of the world’s 5th largest economy?


I’m really starting to even question the SF soldiers themselves, hard to believe they can train with some of the best SFs on the planet then turn up like THIS.

I’ve seen African SFs and militias that are better equipped. These guys wouldn’t even make the cut for most nation’s police special response units.

It seems they are going backwards, they aren’t better equipped than 10 years ago and in some cases seem to have regressed.

What's with the large flag in front of the helmet ?, Looks like a target for anyone trying to aim from far off.

 

[abingdonboy]

What's with the large flag in front of the helmet ?, Looks like a target for anyone trying to aim from far off.

Just for joint ex, wont be seen during real world ops.

 

[tharun]

SF .......................................................................

Everything is fine except that flag on the helmets.

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

This is getting appalling now. Shitty helmets, T-shirts, bog standard rifles, no integrated comns, no decent plate carriers and skateboarder type knee and elbow pads.

What a bloody joke. These are the most elite soldiers of the world’s 5th largest economy?


I’m really starting to even question the SF soldiers themselves, hard to believe they can train with some of the best SFs on the planet then turn up like THIS.

I’ve seen African SFs and militias that are better equipped. These guys wouldn’t even make the cut for most nation’s police special response units.

It seems they are going backwards, they aren’t better equipped than 10 years ago and in some cases seem to have regressed.

They are far better equipped bro...They should be equipped with razor wire.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

The nation wants to know. They have issued world class EXFIL Ballistic helmets to Ghatak Platoon & Infantry Officers which if you research a little are actually issued to SFs of other nations to apne SF ne kya gunha kiya hai bhai ? -_-

(1) Para SF using highcuts in limited numbers as compared to their whole strength.
(2) MARCOS & SG are receiving the Viper P2 helmets which are good but they need highcut configuration.
(3) Garuds are still using the ACH.

Forget about communication devices. 50K out of 1.58lakh MKU will have integrated communication for infantry. And what about our SOFs ? NSG has the best communication at this moment that too SAG.

I think JSOC will solve the problem but I don't see any progress about that in recent months.

 

[Gabriel92]

Indian special forces are equipped like sh*t,whether it comes to personal or group equipments,you can find all the reasons you want to justify this lack of modern and lighter equipments,it doesn't change the fact Indians top brass don't give a single sh*t about their men.

Equipment doesn't do everything for sure,but does a great part of the "everything". Even special forces in backward and shitholes countries hit by hunger and civil wars are better equipped than the majority of Indian special forces.

That is not an insult to the Indian men serving in special units,surely they work with pride,receive intensive training etc. Reward them and show them the nation's gratitude by providing them the most modern equipments. They won't spit on it.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

51 Special Action Group (SAG) National Security Guards (NSG)

 

[abingdonboy]

The nation wants to know. They have issued world class EXFIL Ballistic helmets to Ghatak Platoon & Infantry Officers which if you research a little are actually issued to SFs of other nations to apne SF ne kya gunha kiya hai bhai ? -_-

So? We are talking about special forces here bro.

What’s utterly mind blowing to me is how comparable regular units are now to India’s Special forces.

Take away the Tavor and not even the most diligent defence enthusiast will be able to differentiate between a SF operator and RR/Ghatak these days- NO excuses for this nonsense.

In every other military special forces are a clear step above regulars and 5-10 years ahead in terms of equipment. It seems that whilst infantry modernisation has happened, special forces have stayed still for a decade now.

In 2010 Indian SFs were 20 years behind their western counterparts, today it is about 30 years, there’s no justification for this. A few units getting some very modest upgrades doesn’t change this reality.

(1) Para SF using highcuts in limited numbers as compared to their whole strength..

This just highlights the moronic nature of those that make these procurement decisions.


You don’t buy a high cut helmet unless you have the integrated comns to go with them, the ONLY point you have a high cut over a regular ACH/ECH is to accommodate the integrated noise cancelling headsets- not ONE unit in India has them and yet high cuts are now being seen? Mindless imitation just makes everyone look stupid and incompetent.

Then you have the added absurdity of having high cuts with no rails and not even NVG mounts.

These are not things worth celebrating, it showcases the worst aspects of Indian defence planning and unprofessional nature that is infecting even their most elite units.

NSG has the best communication at this moment that too SAG.

SAG is easily the best equipped unit in India but they are still not quite of the top tier CT level seen in the West.

That NSG can modernise under MHA and the MOD’s Special Units cannot says a lot.

I think JSOC will solve the problem but I don't see any progress about that in recent months.

Apparently CCS cleared it a few weeks back but no need since then.

SOCOM is the ONLY hope now. These idiots in the senior command positions of the IA/IAF/IN aren’t interested in their special units.

 

[abingdonboy]

No apologies dude, they are valid point, however in the quest for kit lets not disrespect the ethos, training or abilities of the men, they are truly world class.

Agreed with everything here but the primary unit of any SF is the man and the ethos has always been to ensure the man will accomplish his mission even in death. The rest are tools and there are wide set of tools that need to be adopted. The biggest need of the hour is structural reform of the entire Military establishment. While there are many SF units out there who train well, our soldiers are just better in both conventional and unconventional roles.

Western SF of today are essentially very well trained in COIN, they will have their asses hand to them in a conventional fight! Conventional warfare requires a different set of operational mindset and very different way of working which IA excels at. Western SF tricks work on jihadis in caves but won't work against well armed nuclear neighbors. Sure new technology will help their fight but all their plans, large drones, CAS would be shot to shit in a real conventional fight against a worthy adversary, then it comes down to good old fashion soldiering.

While there is no question integrated battle groups, SOCOM are mandatory. Ray sahab (RIP) always insisted going back to basics of good soldiering, that is what wins fights. Tools are just an equation of budget and process. Get the process smooth and keep the gravy flowing and it becomes easy to get the gear the boys need. At the moment the process to buy anything is a cluster fuck. Also where is the money? As said a gradual increase of defense budget from 2 to 5% of GDP over the next decade in phases is a must if we want play grab ass in 2030 with our dick firmly in our hands.

Else we'll end up with a #metoo

5% of GDP on defence in democratic India? You’re dreaming. Every year under these “nationalists” defence budget as a % of GDP has been dropping to reach a low of 1.6% today- about the same as just before the 1962 war with China.


I refuse to accept this is about funds anymore. To equip the entire Indian SFs to levels of top units in the West would less than the cost of a SINGLE Rafale.

No, this is about ETHOS and PHILOSOPHY. That the 3 SFs remain in their conventional service command structures means they get no special focus and certainly
Don’t receive the kind of attention a strategic asset deserves.

Look at the AF’s seniormost brass, they are all pilots, do you really expect them to have a clue about special forces operations? Same story for the sailors of the Navy or the cavalry officers of the Army.

There’s a reason why special forces in India are in the state they are and it’s the same old story- red tape, ignorance and backwards outdated thinking.

And I will actually take this further and say NO indian special forces are no longer even close to the best trained special forces soldiers in the world. You cannot be an effective SF today unless you have the best equipment and train to utilise it. Look at how Western SF operate- they conduct all of their operations at night becuase they have the NOD tech to do so. Indian SFs are hampered by their capabilities and thus cannot
Possibly be as effective as special forces from those units. Technology enhances capabilities, the time when you could overcome this with better training and “harder” men is long gone. Today 9/10 Indian SFs will get smoked by their Western counterparts in most scenarios.

SOCOM is the ONLY hope India has to get some decently equipped special forces soldiers.

 

[abingdonboy]

Again we have silly comments from BS arm chair nobodies about equipment level. In India, take any SF, the man is the weapon, his finely honed senses his primary optics. The rest is hogwash, they'll gut the enemy by hook, crook or razor wire. Equipment level is a bit behind. Most of the world's supposed elite will be huffing and puffing in half the areas our SF and regular elite infantry are patrolling at.

The world's supposed elite active in many areas can't go a single mission without close air support (gun ships, fighters), drones. Most engagements end with a 500 pounder being dropped while our SF sneaks across border at will and often in broad daylight, perform heavy hitting raids without any combat aircraft against a far superior enemy that most of these other SF units face.

Sure better vests, helmets, optics, comms, vehicles, weapons are all need of the hour and they will save lives, no question. But to overlook the ability of Indian SF on any day because of old equipment is the last thing on the enemy's mind.

No, no and no again. This isn’t 1980 where “Rambos” can scream “commando” and execute an operation with a knife clenched in their teeth.

Special forces operations of today are about clinical execution. This is NOT where Indian special forces can be counted on to be on par with a western unit.

There’s a reason why the ENTIRE world is following the path of the top units in the West. No one is deluding themselves that having fiercesome warriors alone will make any difference in the modern battlefield.

If it was that easy everyone would do it. The “Indian model” is adopted by exactly nobody except Indian units. The Indian model is nothing but an excuse for having sh!t equipment and training standards.

 

[abingdonboy]

Crappy equipment and crappy drills, some will stil try and defend this sh!t.

 

[IndiaRising]

Crappy equipment and crappy drills, some will stil try and defend this sh!t.

Same crappy equipment and crappy drills led to them crossing LoC and taking out a crapload of porks in 2016. I’d like to see Western SFs do that without any of their tech support. Gaand phat jayegi.