Indian Special Forces (archived)

[rkhanna]

@vampyrbladez

let me try to articulate my issues with Kit Difference.


1. Uniforms - ITS NOT JUST ABOUT CAMO PRINT. ITS ABOUT THE TECH OF Material that the uniform is cut from. Most of our units (including NSG) are using cotton/Poly mix from the 80s/90s that is quiet frankly SHIITE
.
2. Comms - ZERO hands free, Older Gen encryption Can only manage 1 channel at a time. Western SOF coms are integrated done from the squad level all the way up to C&C / ISR and AirForce TATC - we have ZERO capability of doing this. Even in all the large scale excercises we have done this deficiency has persisted

3. Slings - For the most part (ex tavor - only NSG here seems to be on point) we use STOCK slings that are again crap for any tactical efficiency and are generally all over the place

4 Carrier Vests - Still using carrier vests with zippers down the front (most of these were bought in the last 10 years - which idiot authorized them) anyone who has hiked will understand loadbearing equipment and what zippers down the front mean

5. You say MOLE vests - but look at the add on pouches - utter crap - too large for magazines - inefficient, noisy and NO two soldiers have their kit on the same. Imagine if somebody got shot and you need to strip them of their gear to redistribute or apply first aid - in the dark you would go mad finding anything

6. First aid - Fcuking ancient - no quick clot etc etc

7 - Small Arms - NO concept of short barrel carbine - no understanding of suppressors, still lugging around PKMs - Not to forget that we gave our SOF units Bullpups lol

(PS Suppressors is NOT for silent shooting, it increases tactical efficiency, lessons noise on the battlefield and there is marked increase in efficient communication between team,mates. Supressors have almost zero effect on bullet dynamics in terms of stopping power but also increases accuracy.

Suppressors also give soldiers a fraction of a time advantage in surprise

So much so that the entire Marine Corp will be including integrat supressors on their ARs going forward not just SOF - all above is from a 15 year Marine Corp Study on the same - was on their FB page sometime back


8 - Optics - Probably only place where there is decent upgrade but for NVGS still old gen tech , monoculours?! seriously?

9 No proper sniping equipment or tactics or school

10 Helmets - ACH etc are 2 decades old. Its not just that we have them its WHY we need them thats important. Having a FAST helmet and not giving appropriate ear gear / Headphones is pointless - Why do the west now carry the noise cancellation headphones? Because 18 years of the GWOT showed that within 4 years of high tempo opps with grenades etc operators were getting their ears damaged making them combat ineffective.
What lessons have we learned other than trying to copy airsoft images (and failing miserably)

11 Cutting equipment - I have yet to see any of our SOF operators with any of the new age lightweight Cutting equipment that you see western soldiers carry

12. Our Flashbangs and Grenades are again a decade+ OLD

13 you talk of UAV ops - our soldiers dont even carry IR reflective tape or Strobe Lights - how will UAV ops ever be effective - Night Ops - ALL of the above leads to a diminished capacity to conduct night ops

14 .Then there is also a WHOLE host of aux kit every SOF operator in the west carries - Lock picks , Chem lights etc etc which is NOT for show but serves tactical purpose.

15. Not to forget that we buy helmets and spray paint them like its a DC Car or we put a condom on, that looks like the roadside mochi did it.

16. There is still almost zero Data fusion for the SOF units on the ground today - they still rely on theater / AO commanders for information dissemination


Our SOF buys COT equipment and think they have done great. Western SOF send their soldiers for weeks/months to do R&D alongside the defence manufacturers to come up with unique solutions. Half the Kit you see around the world today comes from there.

Unfortunately if you looked closer at your own pictures you will see that beyond the consmetic you are actually proving @abingdonboy point


Can write a whole essay on the training deficiencies in the sense of lack of evolution of our SOF units but that battle i will pick some other day lol

 

[mayfair]

The powers that be could do well to take inputs from the likes of @rkhanna.

Unfortunately that requires a degree of lateral thinking that is largely absent from our set up.

 

[rkhanna]

The powers that be could do well to take inputs from the likes of @rkhanna.

Unfortunately that requires a degree of lateral thinking that is largely absent from our set up.

Sadly these arnt my observations, ironically alot of this has been told to me to current or former Indian OF members that I know.

They have been banging their heads against a wall for a LONG Time. Conventional commanders - invariably in overall incharge of Force Deployment and Utilization (and hence budge appropriation) dont get it. That is why SOCOM is the need of the hour - it was Critical to American SOF evolution.

We now still have to make do with a stop gap SOD which wont even have permanent cadre - (its like all our MOD and Brass and politicos watch bad hollywood movies and go - this looks cool - we want that; without understanding history, needs and reasons of Why. NO study / lessons are ever implemented - And keep in mind we dont need to follow anybody's example (American or otherwise) We just need to do it right.We have more than enough experience of our own to do thinks our way and right. Process Process Process

The SOLE exception is NSG post 26/11 where they went back to GSG-9 for months of eval. Can you believe it -with 25+ years of successful and extreme high end of the CT spectrum ops NSG still had to go back to GSG-9

We still have limited capacity to do small basic things like a Sensitive site Exploitation. the Only Mil Unit in India capable of doing that is SG. Most Para SF units invariably will have a MI/Intel operative imbedded with them for those particular tasks.

Coming to SG - Only true blue Tier I unit in India. and DOES NOT HAVE PERMANENT Cadre. They all rotate back after tours. Imagine the loss of knowledge for the SG as an institution. mind boggling.

When it comes to training there is almost no evolution in expanding the envelope unless some hard lesson was learnt. there is almost no forward thinking. ALOT of the American Kit comes from training like this. Combat Application Group has a long history of evolving new tactics then realizing kit limitation and then trying to get the MIC to bridge the gap.

A small example - In the early years of the Invasion of Afghanistan the Americans (JSOC) learned very quickly that they had ZERO capability to fight underground. There NVGs were limited, Comms didnt work and their Explosives were a liability and breathing underground with Debri/ Gunpowder and explosive residue was a huge issue as NONE of their equipment worked. They went back to the drawing board and developed Comm Repeaters, Better breathing kit, Better NVGs, lower Yield grenades etc etc. Delta even has Civilian Contractors (who dont go through selection but train alongside them to operate alongside them) to handle Explosives, digging equipment, etc etc

Another example - Delta is the worlds (Arguably) number 1 Anti Hijack Unit why? because they dont spend time just assaulting airplanes and recceing airports. They stripped every conceivable type of civilian aircraft to the bone and built them back up to understand how each type works, Understanding strength of glass on the windows of airplanes, understanding how the cargo compartments and elevators work - each type is of different dimensions - there is not one type of training that fits all. Their operators spend weeks as airport employees understanding baggage handling and logistics at airports. They then put all this experience in a common data base to train up each new operator who is tasked with anti hijack duties and keep adding.

Hell we have Canine Units - How many of them can jump out of airplanes to take a swim in the open ocean? -

We are not evolving. If we dont evolve we are dead in the water.

IMO Kit is secondary - Its a result of tasking , training , tactics. In India we tend to put the cart before the Horse.

 

[mayfair]

@rkhanna you are a a member at BRF, why not post this info over there as well?

It would be good to spread this around.

 

[rkhanna]

@rkhanna you are a a member at BRF, why not post this info over there as well?

It would be good to spread this around.

Lol i havnt posted on BR in a while. I end up lurking more for the technical gyan on Airforce, Ships, Electronics etc. On the Army/infantry side they are much weaker.

IDF has a very healthy conversation around Small Arms, Infantry, SOF - which is where my interests primarily lie to end up posting more here.

And honestly not so much time in life to track so many forums as an active participant

 

[ezsasa]

Lol i havnt posted on BR in a while. I end up lurking more for the technical gyan on Airforce, Ships, Electronics etc. On the Army/infantry side they are much weaker.

IDF has a very healthy conversation around Small Arms, Infantry, SOF - which is where my interests primarily lie to end up posting more here.

And honestly not so much time in life to track so many forums as an active participant

Are you keeping an eye on army design bureau(ADB)? They seem to be consolidating requirements for various branches.

They release a compendium of problem statements on a annual basis.

If I remember correctly some of your observations were covered in last year’s compendium.

 

[vampyrbladez]

@vampyrbladez

let me try to articulate my issues with Kit Difference.


1. Uniforms - ITS NOT JUST ABOUT CAMO PRINT. ITS ABOUT THE TECH OF Material that the uniform is cut from. Most of our units (including NSG) are using cotton/Poly mix from the 80s/90s that is quiet frankly SHIITE
.
2. Comms - ZERO hands free, Older Gen encryption Can only manage 1 channel at a time. Western SOF coms are integrated done from the squad level all the way up to C&C / ISR and AirForce TATC - we have ZERO capability of doing this. Even in all the large scale excercises we have done this deficiency has persisted

3. Slings - For the most part (ex tavor - only NSG here seems to be on point) we use STOCK slings that are again crap for any tactical efficiency and are generally all over the place

4 Carrier Vests - Still using carrier vests with zippers down the front (most of these were bought in the last 10 years - which idiot authorized them) anyone who has hiked will understand loadbearing equipment and what zippers down the front mean

5. You say MOLE vests - but look at the add on pouches - utter crap - too large for magazines - inefficient, noisy and NO two soldiers have their kit on the same. Imagine if somebody got shot and you need to strip them of their gear to redistribute or apply first aid - in the dark you would go mad finding anything

6. First aid - Fcuking ancient - no quick clot etc etc

7 - Small Arms - NO concept of short barrel carbine - no understanding of suppressors, still lugging around PKMs - Not to forget that we gave our SOF units Bullpups lol

(PS Suppressors is NOT for silent shooting, it increases tactical efficiency, lessons noise on the battlefield and there is marked increase in efficient communication between team,mates. Supressors have almost zero effect on bullet dynamics in terms of stopping power but also increases accuracy.

Suppressors also give soldiers a fraction of a time advantage in surprise

So much so that the entire Marine Corp will be including integrat supressors on their ARs going forward not just SOF - all above is from a 15 year Marine Corp Study on the same - was on their FB page sometime back


8 - Optics - Probably only place where there is decent upgrade but for NVGS still old gen tech , monoculours?! seriously?

9 No proper sniping equipment or tactics or school

10 Helmets - ACH etc are 2 decades old. Its not just that we have them its WHY we need them thats important. Having a FAST helmet and not giving appropriate ear gear / Headphones is pointless - Why do the west now carry the noise cancellation headphones? Because 18 years of the GWOT showed that within 4 years of high tempo opps with grenades etc operators were getting their ears damaged making them combat ineffective.
What lessons have we learned other than trying to copy airsoft images (and failing miserably)

11 Cutting equipment - I have yet to see any of our SOF operators with any of the new age lightweight Cutting equipment that you see western soldiers carry

12. Our Flashbangs and Grenades are again a decade+ OLD

13 you talk of UAV ops - our soldiers dont even carry IR reflective tape or Strobe Lights - how will UAV ops ever be effective - Night Ops - ALL of the above leads to a diminished capacity to conduct night ops

14 .Then there is also a WHOLE host of aux kit every SOF operator in the west carries - Lock picks , Chem lights etc etc which is NOT for show but serves tactical purpose.

15. Not to forget that we buy helmets and spray paint them like its a DC Car or we put a condom on, that looks like the roadside mochi did it.

16. There is still almost zero Data fusion for the SOF units on the ground today - they still rely on theater / AO commanders for information dissemination


Our SOF buys COT equipment and think they have done great. Western SOF send their soldiers for weeks/months to do R&D alongside the defence manufacturers to come up with unique solutions. Half the Kit you see around the world today comes from there.

Unfortunately if you looked closer at your own pictures you will see that beyond the consmetic you are actually proving @abingdonboy point


Can write a whole essay on the training deficiencies in the sense of lack of evolution of our SOF units but that battle i will pick some other day lol

Agreed with a lot of your points but do keep in mind deep modernisation takes time. Just last 2 years Indian Army is getting proper BPJ and helmets. There was a time in 2011 - 12 on this thread that seeing a PATKA on a soldier with BPJ (Heavy Cumbersome III+) was an 'improvement'. For a large bloated army to adapt to modern C2C is an ongoing process. FINALLY army is being made lean and mean with focus on capital acquisition.

Regarding your MIC for R&D, we have the remains of a 1960s era Soviet Behemoth. Private manufacturers like MKU and TATA are finally catering to domestic demand than simply selling to US and Turkish orders. As more red tape and regulation is cut, more equipment uniformity will increase. Realistically, I would say 5 yrs till we have the latest cutting edge equipment as a uniformity, provided BJP remains in power. I have NO HOPE for a UPA led Khichdi govt.

BTW there are major improvements beyond 'cosmetic changes'. @abingdonboy comparing our SOF to Africans is ridiculous and an overreaction.

Looks like going back to school paid off for NSG.

 

[rkhanna]

Are you keeping an eye on army design bureau(ADB)? They seem to be consolidating requirements for various branches.

They release a compendium of problem statements on a annual basis.

If I remember correctly some of your observations were covered in last year’s compendium.

Yes!! the ADB is actually doing a very comendable job by also making use of the opinions of Stake holders (and knowledge keepers) as part of their exercise. However any consultant is only as good as the Board of Directors willing to implement their plan. - That IMO i am not holding my breath for.

 

[rkhanna]

Agreed with a lot of your points but do keep in mind deep modernisation takes time. Just last 2 years Indian Army is getting proper BPJ and helmets. There was a time in 2011 - 12 on this thread that seeing a PATKA on a soldier with BPJ (Heavy Cumbersome III+) was an 'improvement'. For a large bloated army to adapt to modern C2C is an ongoing process. FINALLY army is being made lean and mean with focus on capital acquisition.

Regarding your MIC for R&D, we have the remains of a 1960s era Soviet Behemoth. Private manufacturers like MKU and TATA are finally catering to domestic demand than simply selling to US and Turkish orders. As more red tape and regulation is cut, more equipment uniformity will increase. Realistically, I would say 5 yrs till we have the latest cutting edge equipment as a uniformity, provided BJP remains in power. I have NO HOPE for a UPA led Khichdi govt.

BTW there are major improvements beyond 'cosmetic changes'. @abingdonboy comparing our SOF to Africans is ridiculous and an overreaction.

Sirji - My point is that for the SOF units of India there is absolutely no EXCUSE for any sort of modernization (deep or not) to take time - The rest of the military can catch up but the tip of the Spear has to be sharp always.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Sirji - My point is that for the SOF units of India there is absolutely no EXCUSE for any sort of modernization (deep or not) to take time - The rest of the military can catch up but the tip of the Spear has to be sharp always.

When your max budget goes towards pension and salary, capital acquisition takes a back seat much less specialist equipment and gear.

Things have picked up pace in last 2 years and will carry forward as well.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Galatz Sniper Rifle ............................................

 

[rkhanna]

When your max budget goes towards pension and salary, capital acquisition takes a back seat much less specialist equipment and gear.

Things have picked up pace in last 2 years and will carry forward as well.

Its not about the quantum of $$ its about the efficiencies of it. If we dont know what we are doing we are going to end up spending smaller quantities of money on rubbish than anything good. What was the point of the High Cut Helmets? do we need them?

We are a country of Penny Wise Pound Foolish.

Lastly - an SOF budget can easily be created under the cabinet secretariat - Can easily be drawn from unused funds returned from MoD to FinMin every year and does not have to intrude on capital items of the services and OpEx of the forces.

First we need a plan -> then we need to budget to execution that plan over a period of time. Basic thing is we have piss poor managers. Everything we do in india is Adhoc and kneejerk

PS as a statistic and food for thought

It Cost the US Navy US$350,000 - US$500,000 to Equip and Train a Navy Seal (including BUDS). Then it costs US$1mm a year to keep that same SEAL Operational and Forward Deployed (This cost does not include the Capital and ISR assets of SOCOM)

Comparatively it cost the US Marine Corp US$70,000 To Equip and Train a Marine.

Can you imagine the difference in capability between the two?

 

[vampyrbladez]

First we need a plan -> then we need
It Cost the US Navy US$350,000 - US$500,000 to Equip and Train a Navy Seal (including BUDS). Then it costs US$1mm a year to keep that same SEAL Operational and Forward Deployed (This cost does not include the Capital and ISR assets of SOCOM)

Comparatively it cost the US Marine Corp US$70,000 To Equip and Train a Marine.

Can you imagine the difference in capability between the two?

End of the day you need cash for this. Even with a joint command things don't change overnight especially with bureaucracy being tacked onto more bureaucracy.

First priority for capital acquisition is tanks, planes, ships, etc. Then infantry equipment is given priority. Lastly SF equipment. This happens because our domestic producers are just now getting orders for Indian units than foreign ones. Flush with money, R&D and MiC collaboration happens next.

 

[rkhanna]

@vampyrbladez bro i agree with you but my point is different

We need to plan things out. Simply putting line items on a board doesnt solve things. Doing adhoc is more of a waste of money than planning and building slowly.

We need to plan things out to the minutest detail. We need to get SOF stake holders on board. Not just NSA and CS and MOD and Army Brass. We need a roadmap of 10 years with 2 year milestones built in.

Efficient allocation of resources is not being done. Why did we raise and double the size of our SOF units in the mid 2000s? for what purpose?

Today we have a diminished SOF capability and an expanded "Commando" capability. THERE IS A HUGE Difference.

We need to re-orient our priorities with the stepchild (SOF) not being at the bottom of the priority but at the top.

The First STEP of getting them on the table to fight for resources is giving them their own Service Command.

If you read the history of SOCOM - while set up in the 80s they had to fight tooth and nail for capability and funding till the Kosovo Crises. Then with the GWOT and Rumfield they came into their own. They fought a 20+ year battle to belong.

Other countries which always rode the coattales of the Americans (Brits/French/Germans/Aussies) always had the luxury of concentrating on their SOF and not building conventional capacity so lets leave them out of the equation.

The singular best examples outside of American in building up SOF capability is the Philippines and South Korea.

Little money can go a LONG Way. as long as there is method to the madness.

 

[ezsasa]

to add to the discussion going on above.

The kind of kit and equipment that is being expected will not happen for the following reasons. if we take the various chiefs statements over the past four years:

1) they are anticipating a short wars not long prolonged wars.
2) they are anticipating defensive wars not offensive ops.
3) they are anticipating hybrid wars not regular wars.
4) emphasis on buying indian made equipment.

good solid long regular wars enable lessons to be learnt on the field for next round of iterative development. since we don't go to wars like americans do every ten years, kit upgrades will never be upto the mark.

let's say next year government decides to take back Pok and aksai chin by force, only then kit upgrades will happen towards the end of those campaigns.

 

[rkhanna]

to add to the discussion going on above.

The kind of kit and equipment that is being expected will not happen for the following reasons. if we take the various chiefs statements over the past four years:

1) they are anticipating a short wars not long prolonged wars.
2) they are anticipating defensive wars not offensive ops.
3) they are anticipating hybrid wars not regular wars.
4) emphasis on buying indian made equipment.

good solid long regular wars enable lessons to be learnt on the field for next round of iterative development. since we don't go to wars like americans do every ten years, kit upgrades will never be upto the mark.

let's say next year government decides to take back Pok and aksai chin by force, only then kit upgrades will happen towards the end of those campaigns.

Fairenough. But China is one country preparing for the War it will have to fight tomorrow. Maybe we can take a small lesson from their book here.

Just look around the Subcontinent - Bangla, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Bhutan, Tibet, Myanmar, POK, Afghanistan,- All places our SOF units can have a role in the short to medium term.

Then look at East / Central Africa - All places our SOFs can have a role in the medium to long term.

How do we build up that capability slowly without have to go to a full fledged war to "learn a lesson"

Our Navy is already planning to deal with a crowded neighbourhood with PLAN Air Craft Carriers, The AF is getting ready to fight a 2 front war with limited resources. The infantry is getting beefed up with a new Corp, better ISR and mobilization logistics.

why oh why no strategic foresight for SOF?

 

[binayak95]

Fairenough. But China is one country preparing for the War it will have to fight tomorrow. Maybe we can take a small lesson from their book here.

Just look around the Subcontinent - Bangla, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Bhutan, Tibet, Myanmar, POK, Afghanistan,- All places our SOF units can have a role in the short to medium term.

Then look at East / Central Africa - All places our SOFs can have a role in the medium to long term.

How do we build up that capability slowly without have to go to a full fledged war to "learn a lesson"

Our Navy is already planning to deal with a crowded neighbourhood with PLAN Air Craft Carriers, The AF is getting ready to fight a 2 front war with limited resources. The infantry is getting beefed up with a new Corp, better ISR and mobilization logistics.

why oh why no strategic foresight for SOF?

With respect sir, all SF organisations across the world have had to fight with a hostile Army brass when it comes to upgrades and modernization.

And its not surprising. In our case, the situation is exasperated by a lost decade of decadence and a lack of a national strategy that identifies threats and enlists steps to deal with said threats.

In such a scenario - High End defence deals like jets and BMD systems are higher priority for the Govt since they are in the public eye, for the Army brass - it boils down to choosing between obsolete tanks and workable rifles. Which to junk - the rifle upgrade ofcourse?

And SF - who cares about those egotistical sons of b*tches?

And that was the rut we were in...

Only it was much much worse. Thank the Gods for Parrikar. His short stint saw a lot of things being addressed. And now we can hope to have a SOCOM like organisation. Lets make sure 2019 sees us pressing the right button.

 

[mayfair]

When your max budget goes towards pension and salary, capital acquisition takes a back seat much less specialist equipment and gear.

Things have picked up pace in last 2 years and will carry forward as well.

In this instance, I agree with @rkhanna here. The numbers are smaller and procurement mostly secretive, budgets doesn't really should be a hindrance.

It's nothing but apathy and babudom being baboons.

 

[ezsasa]

Fairenough. But China is one country preparing for the War it will have to fight tomorrow. Maybe we can take a small lesson from their book here.

Just look around the Subcontinent - Bangla, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Bhutan, Tibet, Myanmar, POK, Afghanistan,- All places our SOF units can have a role in the short to medium term.

Then look at East / Central Africa - All places our SOFs can have a role in the medium to long term.

How do we build up that capability slowly without have to go to a full fledged war to "learn a lesson"

Our Navy is already planning to deal with a crowded neighbourhood with PLAN Air Craft Carriers, The AF is getting ready to fight a 2 front war with limited resources. The infantry is getting beefed up with a new Corp, better ISR and mobilization logistics.

why oh why no strategic foresight for SOF?

There is one possible solution for continuous development of gear.

What ever innovation is required, anti-naxal ops can be used as test case. If some sort of co-ordination between our domestic defence manufacturers and anti-naxal troops, and their feedback incorporated into equipment design.

Someone high up the ranks better utilise this opportunity, jungle naxalism may die away in next 10 years.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

NSG Raising Day 2018 ................................................