Indian Special Forces (archived)

[rkhanna]

But the weapon was made famous by india's first special operator. Shivaji

 

[IndiaRising]

shivaji used waghnakh to kill afzal khan...... a true warrior

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Depends on what you define as victory and war. If it were the equipment alone, America should have won in Vietnam and Korea and in Afghanistan, Soviets would have never had to withdraw from Afghanistan, The allied forces would have take Istanbul post-WWI...

Heck Napaki equipment was superior to us in many aspects in 1965.

Weapons are always deciding factor.Sticks against stones...stones against brass..brass against iron..iron against steel..arty against elphants..guns against swords.

What you are quoting are the wars which happened after the annihilation of those countries like Iraq and Vietnam...US couldnt claim 100% victory agreed..but can the Iraqis claim 10% victory?

By this logic we are loosing aginst Naxals!

Technology backed up by industry and sufficent manpower wins you wars...unless you are stupid like pakistan and Germany in WW 2.

Why did Russians kick ass of the Germans?Coz they had cheaper technology available which could be mass produced aka their tanks despite being inferior to nazis but the Germans were stupid just like Pakis in 65 and 99.

Russia of the 1940s is comparable to china of today in military.

And sorry to say this but no matter how many SF we put against China ..SFF or SG or no matter what we will loose against China because of the reasons i mentioned earier.

China is no benchmark for training but our SF lacks in training too.

Snipers are handicapped without technology..i doubt our snipers can take shots over 1.2 kms with pin point accuracy.

Training which we claim to be best in comes with money.How many rounds do our SF fire?

What is the knowledge of security situation that NSG operators possess?excluding officers?

Aptitude is another factor...knowledge is next if you talk of super secret ops.Unless you want them to be a hitman.

Air assets?Zero!!!Most of the insertion and extraction is by foot.

Gear..zero....amazon.com bike gloves with most if not all.

Old antique headsets!

NVGs outdated and insufficent.

No discipline in uniform...no standard camo!

Where is the academy discipline?

Some are in lowers some in hoodies...some are wearing hiking cargos..then they put a bright cross on helmet for identification.

Strong men are a basic requirement for SF...we shouldnt even question that.

I am talking about skill,knowledge and gear etc which only comes from money.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I was about to say this sir! The 21 Maratha LI has a rich history and heritage. Was reading about them, the other day. Formed in 1768 as the 103rd Marathas, it is the senior most Light Infantry regiment of the Army.

Not to forget their kind of ops match with Shivajis guerrilla warfare and hence this is an apt name.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Fairenough. but Failures happen. More often than not Firepower and Combined Arms results in Friendly Fires. But the point it their capability is a leapfrog above others. Potential for failures should be a reason for us NOT to evolve.

Btw when I talk about tech - i am takling about the items which would seem common sense and within the affordability of India.

1. Current Gen optics - slowly getting there
2. Proper Handsfree encrypted Comms - yet to see improvement
3. light weight Modular Kevlar Plates - so far adhoc
4. MOLLE system Combat Vests - so far adhoc
5. Suppressed weapons - Marginal -Uzis and Normal Barrel Lenght M4s
6. Uniform UNIFORMS - This is like takling to Santa
7. Proper sniping tools - not galatz and SVDs - Maybe one day post NSG's full load out
8. Dedicated Special Operation Rotary Units to compliment the C130s - Outfitted with SPJs and EW gear for Covert Ingress and Egress - Dedicated pilots who fly alongside operators day in and out in training
9. Replacement of those Gypsy/Jongas
10. why is the headgear of our SOF troops so random and adhoc?for Example VBSS Naval Security has better Headgear than MARCOS

All we are arguing is that SOF not be treated as the step child who everybody loves to do the dirty work and then forgets about them.




Actually you will be surprised that they have had FAR more successes than failures. and not just SOF . Going down to even Light Infantry units like the 10th Mountain. and IMO i honestly dont think the Israeli's and Brits operate with that much of a drastic difference from the Americans.

The One key difference ofcourse being that while the American's fly into battle the rest of the world walks.

And those technologies are easier to master than a landing on Mars or sending humans in space.

What does it cost to develop a camo?Optics?Radio?bpj?helmet?

This is nothing compared to developing Tejas or Aircraft carriers.

 

[mayfair]

Weapons are always deciding factor.Sticks against stones...stones against brass..brass against iron..iron against steel..arty against elphants..guns against swords.

What you are quoting are the wars which happened after the annihilation of those countries like Iraq and Vietnam...US couldnt claim 100% victory agreed..but can the Iraqis claim 10% victory?

US lost 50,000 troops in Vietnam and had to withdraw in disgrace. Eventually it is about outcomes and objectives. They lost huge numbers in Korea as well and mostly to a rag-tag ill-equipped PLA and KPA. They managed to save SoKo though.

Russians killed hundreds of Thousands of terrorists in Afghanistan, but they withdrew in the end, after losing 15,000 men and equipment and face. And no, it was not the Stingers that caused them to leave.

By this logic we are loosing aginst Naxals!

We will, if we completely give up on Naxal-infested areas. Do remember what happened to IPKF...

Technology backed up by industry and sufficent manpower wins you wars...unless you are stupid like pakistan and Germany in WW 2.

Why did Russians kick ass of the Germans?Coz they had cheaper technology available which could be mass produced aka their tanks despite being inferior to nazis but the Germans were stupid just like Pakis in 65 and 99.

Russia of the 1940s is comparable to china of today in military.

Russians were fighting on a single front, Germany on multiple fronts and of course their stupidity in invading Russia in the bitter cold. But as you said, it was German stupidity and poor decision making that allowed Russians with their qualitatively inferior but quantitatively bigger armour to overwhelm them. The price was heavy though, over 20 million were sacrificed.

But again you contradict yourself. As per you, Germany with their riches and technological superiority should have demolished the Russians, but the opposite happened. So you agree that technology and weapons without brains are useless and lesser equipped but smarter foe can overcome the better equipped yet foolish.

And sorry to say this but no matter how many SF we put against China ..SFF or SG or no matter what we will loose against China because of the reasons i mentioned earier.

China is no benchmark for training but our SF lacks in training too..

If you feel so then we should probably stop standing upto Chinese and give them whatever they want, because as per you we will surely lose. Then what's the point of having forces on the borders?

But I am confused. First you say, China is no benchmark, then you say we'll lose to them regardless of what we do. How is that not a benchmark? If you claim that our SF lacks training and that's why we'll lose against China, then we they ARE a benchmark aren't they?

Snipers are handicapped without technology..i doubt our snipers can take shots over 1.2 kms with pin point accuracy..

Once again, I assume you are fully in the know of all these matters. What do you blame this on, training or technology?

Training which we claim to be best in comes with money.How many rounds do our SF fire?.

You tell me..

What is the knowledge of security situation that NSG operators possess?excluding officers?

Please share your assessment, I assume you have done a comprehensive analysis and evaluation of NSG operators and officers.

Aptitude is another factor...knowledge is next if you talk of super secret ops.Unless you want them to be a hitman.

How do you judge that ALL our SFs are lacking in aptitude?

Air assets?Zero!!!Most of the insertion and extraction is by foot.

Gear..zero....amazon.com bike gloves with most if not all.

Old antique headsets!

NVGs outdated and insufficent.

Agreed. That is all indeed a bummer.

No discipline in uniform...no standard camo!

Where is the academy discipline?

Some are in lowers some in hoodies...some are wearing hiking cargos..then they put a bright cross on helmet for identification.

Does that even matter? Especially since SFs must operate behind the lines and blend in with civilians and look like rag tag militias if necessary. I mean of all the things, you are bummed by unmatched uniforms??

Do you want SFs or do you want infantry?

Strong men are a basic requirement for SF...we shouldnt even question that.

What's the point? Are we not recruiting strong men?

I am talking about skill,knowledge and gear etc which only comes from money.

Skill comes only with money? Then the Saudi SFs would have been most skilled on the planet.

 

[mayfair]

Comparing apples to oranges...but let me take a shot
***

And those technologies are easier to master than a landing on Mars or sending humans in space.

Not necessarily. We did not master space tech in a single year. We started way way back in 1960s and we send the Mangalyaan to Mars only in 2013.

What does it cost to develop a camo?Optics?Radio?bpj?helmet?

Where are the private enterprises in India doing this sort of thing? How big is the market for them to invest in this sort of thing

This is nothing compared to developing Tejas or Aircraft carriers.

Easy to say without a full understanding of complexities and optics involved. Tejas started in 1980s, flew for the first time in 2001 and was inducted only recently. Still many components (engine, seats, radar) are imported. For our aircraft carriers, we hired an Italian consultant.
***

Like I said, it's the entire ecosystem which is lacking here. Our procurements are in haphazard manner, everyone is pulling in different directions, import lobby is everywhere, short-termism is the matter of the day.

 

[apoorv465]

8. Dedicated Special Operation Rotary Units to compliment the C130s - Outfitted with SPJs and EW gear for Covert Ingress and Egress - Dedicated pilots who fly alongside operators day in and out in training

We already have that "202 Army Aviation Squadron" Soaring Gideons
https://www.stratpost.com/army-day-special-the-soaring-gideons/

 

[uoftotaku]

Just to follow up the earlier comment about US SOF being treated like favorite children...they apparently bought $26M worth of unneeded combat gear without any scrutiny. Imagine what Para SF would look like with that much free budget thrown around

https://taskandpurpose.com/socom-extra-combat-gear/

 

[rkhanna]

The Gideons is not a strictly SOF unit. They are a helo unit based in Kashmir and hence automatically end up supporting various SOF ops and because of proximity to border they are geared for CSAR - but they dont train with any SOF element on a continuing basis. They wont get deployed to the other side of the country if the need be.

I am saying a centrally hosted Mobile Aviation Unit that supports Strategic SOF taskings across the country and overseas deployments. And a unit that not only comes with an offensive capability (Rudra?) but also internal EW systems and gear to be self contained as much as can be.

 

[rkhanna]

Just to follow up the earlier comment about US SOF being treated like favorite children...they apparently bought $26M worth of unneeded combat gear without any scrutiny. Imagine what Para SF would look like with that much free budget thrown around

https://taskandpurpose.com/socom-extra-combat-gear/

Dont know how "unneeded" it was. Wear and tear on alof of that gear specially optics happens very quickly considering the number of kinetic ops. Also dont forget that alot of this gear was given to Coalition partners (afgans, Iraqis, Peshmerga,etc) who are operating alongside the americans.

But yes the point is that SOCOM has the discretion to buy kit YESTERDAY. and $26mm is not even a drop int the bucket compared to the overall spending. (even with respect to India)

Btw but if you read the news articles in the early days of the Afghan invasin and iraq invasion the American SOF forces were under equipped. Parents/family of soldiers would often buy Gear (BPJ, NVGs, boots, etc) with their own money in america and ship it to the soldiers.

 

[ALBY]

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @rkhanna why was air insertion rejected in favor of crossing the border by foot during Myanmar ops? Was it due to unavailability of choppers or to reduce chances of alerting enemy ? Chopper insertion during night could have saved much time rater than sending men 50km deep inside enemy territory by foot..Anyway the documentary contradicts with the info which came out after narrating the operation as it was rumoured that there was air support for Para in Myanmar.

 

[Srinivas_K]

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @rkhanna why was air insertion rejected in favor of crossing the border by foot during Myanmar ops? Was it due to unavailability of choppers or to reduce chances of alerting enemy ? Chopper insertion during night could have saved much time rater than sending men 50km deep inside enemy territory by foot..Anyway the documentary contradicts with the info which came out after narrating the operation as it was rumoured that there was air support for Para in Myanmar.

the news at that time said during the extraction air support was used.

 

[ALBY]

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...and-kashmir/story-633ZVrFL1dw0tuxFxMlUaI.html
Much awaited move..It would reduce the dependence and over use of Special Forces in each and every operation in Kashmir.. Question is whether MoD will allow such a proposal.

 

[rkhanna]

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...and-kashmir/story-633ZVrFL1dw0tuxFxMlUaI.html
Much awaited move..It would reduce the dependence and over use of Special Forces in each and every operation in Kashmir.. Question is whether MoD will allow such a proposal.

AWESOME. With an NSG Team + CRPF QRT + Army Ghatak all activity inside a CASO can be handled.

SOF - Garud / Marcos / SF should be out in the wild using ISR and Intel to stakeout OGW houses, Hitting inflitrators before they come within area's of habitation and doing regular assaults across the LOC. SOF should be in plain clothes developing their own assets, indulging in psych warfare etc (Kinda what TSD was doing).

with SOF we need to dial the volume all the way up. No more ROE of calling out for surrender before executing an ambush. Destroy their logistics, disrupt their comms and social infrastructure without all of it coming in the news.

our SOF today are attached to bases - we need a more Joint Task Force mindset with IB/MI/DIA/RAW/SOF all sitting in the same room and planning ops. Remmeber the good old days of JCT-X/J

 

[uoftotaku]

[QUOTE="rkhanna, post: 1419811, member: ]

Btw but if you read the news articles in the early days of the Afghan invasin and iraq invasion the American SOF forces were under equipped. Parents/family of soldiers would often buy Gear (BPJ, NVGs, boots, etc) with their own money in america and ship it to the soldiers.[/QUOTE]

Buying extra equipment is actually a long tradition on US dating back to Minuteman days. In families with military tradition they even pass down old revolvers etc. There are some famous stories from Iraq and Afghanistan where crazed drug fuelled jihadis immune to 5.56 fire were finally brought down by some soldier's personal .45 Colt 1911 or .357 Magnums. Even regular soldiers buy accessories like foregrips, optics etc of their own liking. There are some rules of course (must not compromise camouflage etc) but for the most part its accepted and encouraged tradition.

 

[rkhanna]

the news at that time said during the extraction air support was used.

I always heard what we saw. We humped 50k in and 50k out. We were so afraid of Chinese ELInt there no comms were used except an Indian burner phone where network from India was available. The TOC had no clue on status of mission till the team came back to cell phone range.

A QRT helo based was there for a hot extract if needed.

Other than that the boys were on their own.

 

[mayfair]

We were so afraid of Chinese ELInt there no comms were used.

That's a bummer. If that's the case, the what does ti mean for trans-LAC ops?

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

US lost 50,000 troops in Vietnam and had to withdraw in disgrace. Eventually it is about outcomes and objectives. They lost huge numbers in Korea as well and mostly to a rag-tag ill-equipped PLA and KPA. They managed to save SoKo though.

Russians killed hundreds of Thousands of terrorists in Afghanistan, but they withdrew in the end, after losing 15,000 men and equipment and face. And no, it was not the Stingers that caused them to leave.

I am talking about the initial annihilation and not what happens after 10 years.Atleast do a comparative study on the environment we are in and then try to understand my point.

China doesnt have a superior SF or training BUT they have the technology to have a better replacement of the systems they have UNLIKE US.

Technology doesnt mean USA and Israel..Reverse engineering is also a technology.China has a upper hand than us in a war because of their manufacturing capability and skilled labor...How do you think wars are won...Russia also won coz their T 34 were cheaper and were mass produced..It is also technology and mass producing which is important.

ISRO works on low budget too.

Para vs PLA SF and we win?...How can you even think we will be formidable in a long term war.Yes short term will save our ass but i really dont think we have the industries or the economy to get in a long war and that too with China.

The Aptitude topic...Something which even the US SS criticised so i am not the only one.

Have met lots of NSG marshals on many flights..yes interacted with them.Talked to them and also discussed things.


The NSG or the Army relies on officers to do the majority of the work.I wont like to comment more on it for some reasons.The gap between the brain of a officer and a jawan even from the NSG is too damn wide.

I am sorry but thats how it is.

Regarding skill with money...Yes howelse does skill come?

What is the cost to train a fighter pilot?..Is that not money?

The cost to train a SF soldier..Again money.

Saudis my friend are lacking tactics,experience and leadership and not money.These things money doesnt buy.

But yeah the experienced guy with good tactics also requires money to be effective.

Like for example our Snipers...No money..No decent rifle..no decent computers...training is also not the best.So within 1 km they are very effective but after that its all luck.


Lastly,a rifle scope is easier to master than mastering the weight of a Arjun or LCA.And that is what i said.If in the beginning more effort was put in developing decent things like shoes,clothing,optics,radio,rifles etc we would have been much better off now.

 

[rkhanna]

MARCOS - Viper2 Helmet and Combat Comms!!

What is the ball like thing on the left side of the first Sailors Helmet?