Indian Special Forces (archived)

[rkhanna]

Para regt . SF command and army gchq all equally to blame

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

How about the men themselves???

Men carry morale which is influenced by food,weapons,gear,kit etc.

A good standard uniform with a good BPJ and helmets makes you to take additional risk.

Men are men..all men are equals.

I am not the one who will say that the Indian man will kickass of any other race man.

It all comes down to your training equipment and morale.

And Indian Army training is not the best in the world.

Its not like we dont have equipment but we make up for it in training..this is a propoganda line.

If you dont have NVG for infantrymen its not like they will become owls in the night by training Or they will do telepathy if they dont have good radios.

In the age of smaller and more mobile advanced Army we are expanding ours.

The difference between Jawan and officer is too vast and most of the former not having a great deal of aptitude.

The whole Army relies on young officers to show the leadership and hence be the brunt of casualties.

So lets not do too much of superior men propaganda...like i said earlier that if we keep our Patriortism aside and do a really neutral review..our SF have a long way to go in many things.

 

[aditya g]

Some part of the blame lies with the army.

Who speaks for the SF in the higher echelons of the army? There is no SF Colonel of the Regiment - because .... SF doesnt have its own regiment! It has no regimental centre of its own and no say in how SF is run or equipped.

Men carry morale which is influenced by food,weapons,gear,kit etc.

A good standard uniform with a good BPJ and helmets makes you to take additional risk.

Men are men..all men are equals.

I am not the one who will say that the Indian man will kickass of any other race man.

It all comes down to your training equipment and morale.

And Indian Army training is not the best in the world.

Its not like we dont have equipment but we make up for it in training..this is a propoganda line.

If you dont have NVG for infantrymen its not like they will become owls in the night by training Or they will do telepathy if they dont have good radios.

In the age of smaller and more mobile advanced Army we are expanding ours.

The difference between Jawan and officer is too vast and most of the former not having a great deal of aptitude.

The whole Army relies on young officers to show the leadership and hence be the brunt of casualties.

So lets not do too much of superior men propaganda...like i said earlier that if we keep our Patriortism aside and do a really neutral review..our SF have a long way to go in many things.

 

[mayfair]

We are not debating the quality of men. We are discussing their equipment and employment..

My comment was specifically in response to this statement

abingdonboy said: ↑
Take away the Tavors and what about these guys is world class?

Perhaps it should have been phrased as What equipment do these guys have that is world class.

I agree that in the absence of cutting edge equipment, our men are at a disadvantage. But the fact remains that you cannot be world class in any sphere fully dependent on imported and phoren maal.

Unless we start innovating and designing, ourselves, a country of limited resources such as us will continue to flounder and flop around for stop-gap solutions and 20 years from now we will be cribbing about the best of the best lacking the best equipment.

Excuse me for saying this, but do anyone of you have ANY suggestions on how we circumvent these issues under our present circumstances? I am sorry to say I have seen few among the very worthwhile critiques that I have read here.

Sometimes adversity teaches you to innovate. If as per you lot (I assume that you folks speak from authority and deep understanding of the tactical spectrum of Indian special forces) our forces are disadvantaged because of the lack of cutting edge gizmos, then by the same logic, the men and the tactics have to innovate to get around these limitations. Perhaps not the best approach, but THIS DOES ADD another weapon in the arsenal that can be pulled out, when the cutting edge equipment loses its mojo.

To dismissively disparage this as jugaad, perhaps shows a greater inclination towards appearances than substance.

At the end of it, our forces need to be equipped with cutting edge equipment that will make their job smoother, save lives and help win wars and conflict. Our forces will be equipped with world class equipment, only and only when India starts producing world class equipment in desirable quantities. This will need nurturing on ALL sides, the armed forces, the industry and above all the government institutions.

 

[uoftotaku]

If anyone doubts quality of SF men and their ability to perform their assigned tasks without "world class equipment" (whatever that phrase encompasses)...look at old pics from the Valley when 9 Para guys in pathan suits and Vz.58P dominated against hundreds of jihadi wannabes long before it was cool

 

[mayfair]

I don't think anyone is questioning the ability of our men. What is being pointed out, correctly that is, that the abilities can be maximised and powered up by magnitudes, if our men were to be equipped with the best equipment out there.

What I am arguing for is that having the best equipment will help, it will only be a short-term solution. Whatever equipment is procured, will not fit in seamlessly with our operational environment. It will need to be calibrated, tweaked and turned and modified to fit in with the requirements of OUR men. One can only imagine the issues that will crop up when our forces wish to have these modifications done and they will need to be done by the phoren OEMs, thereby leading to the leaking of sensitive info that they would rather avoid. Alternatively, we tweak it ourselves, which is jugaad. There's no escaping jugaad.

To succeed in the longer term, our men need to be equipped with the best equipment and those best equipment must be made and designed in India in close liaison with the armed forces and the personnel using them.

 

[rkhanna]

Nobody is doubting the quality of men. What we are arguing is that we have to accept that there is ALOT of room to improve.

Techniques and Technology go hand in hand. Evolution of technology leads to better/newer training and techniques.

We need to accept that we have been fighting a COIN fight for so long that that in (an ironic) sense we have now become one dimensional. We need to keep the evolution going. Look how much the NSG has come from 26/11 with new Kit. this new kit (ballistic shields) are now trickling down to RR/CRPF units in Kashmir.

Are we a top quartile SOF unit in the world ASBOLUTELY. but do we own a patent for a tough selection process - no. Do we own a patent for the best SF schools - No. Do we have more experience than others - was true in the 90's not anymore - Forget the Americans and Brits even the GROM, JTF-2, SASR, Turks etc etc all have now many years of experience under their belt.

To be at the top of the game we have to keep evolving. And not just talking about SF here, Marcos, Ghataks, COBRA etc

Let me give you an example.

For me (and snipers are my pet obsession) the best sniper shot so far is probably the SEAL Sniper who shot the Somalian Pirate to free captain philips. He shot off an unstable platform in constant motion (the helo deck of a ship) and shot through At the target who was on a life boat also in high state of instability in darkness and in decent wind conditions.

How was that achieved . Superior Technology and Superior Training. Both are possible only with proper Org SOPs in place. Could an Indian Sniper have made that shot. Honestly don't know.

Lastly - This is not to say that this evolution is currently NOT happening. It definetly is. But the biggest delta which is Command and MoD level is probably happening alot slower.

 

[WARREN SS]

I don't think anyone is questioning the ability of our men. What is being pointed out, correctly that is, that the abilities can be maximised and powered up by magnitudes, if our men were to be equipped with the best equipment out there.

What I am arguing for is that having the best equipment will help, it will only be a short-term solution. Whatever equipment is procured, will not fit in seamlessly with our operational environment. It will need to be calibrated, tweaked and turned and modified to fit in with the requirements of OUR men. One can only imagine the issues that will crop up when our forces wish to have these modifications done and they will need to be done by the phoren OEMs, thereby leading to the leaking of sensitive info that they would rather avoid. Alternatively, we tweak it ourselves, which is jugaad. There's no escaping jugaad.

To succeed in the longer term, our men need to be equipped with the best equipment and those best equipment must be made and designed in India in close liaison with the armed forces and the personnel using them.

Equipment always wins you war that reality of warfare history

 

[mayfair]

Equipment always wins you war that reality of warfare history

Depends on what you define as victory and war. If it were the equipment alone, America should have won in Vietnam and Korea and in Afghanistan, Soviets would have never had to withdraw from Afghanistan, The allied forces would have take Istanbul post-WWI...

Heck Napaki equipment was superior to us in many aspects in 1965.

 

[mayfair]

Also it seems that people are skirting the issues that I raised. It's not just the equipment, it's the entire bloody ecosystem, which is the key here.

 

[uoftotaku]

We need to re-focus our SF away from the COIN arena. Aside from 10 Para, which SF unit realistically practices Ops in a conventional warfare support or traditional "commando" scenario? Every single other SF unit is either engaged in COIN ops directly or trains with COIN as its primary focus.

Tech gives an illusion of competence in warfare. Since the example of US SOF is brought up i'll use that as an example of what I mean:

US SOF has access to the BEST tech available (and some that gets invented specifically for them). Their operational model is built around their assumption of technological and firepower superiority over any conceivable OpFor.

Now in most tactical scenarios that they find themselves deployed in these days (for the most part COIN and DA Raids) this above holds true and they come out successful. However, it also pushes them into situations where their assumptions go wrong. Example most recently the ambush in Niger, the SEAL raid gone wrong in Yemen, the DGI hostage rescue gone wrong in Somalia. In all those situations, the assumption of superiority led commanders to push SF into situations where they were hopelessly outnumbered to the point where no amount of high tech can keep you alive.

This is the problem with high tech. The Israeli's learned lessons the hard way and their SOF evolved to focus their training on more innate human skill than rely on tech and firepower alone. They stopped using SOF for DA missions in all but very specific circumstances instead using missiles and bombing.

 

[rkhanna]

Fairenough. but Failures happen. More often than not Firepower and Combined Arms results in Friendly Fires. But the point it their capability is a leapfrog above others. Potential for failures should be a reason for us NOT to evolve.

Btw when I talk about tech - i am takling about the items which would seem common sense and within the affordability of India.

1. Current Gen optics - slowly getting there
2. Proper Handsfree encrypted Comms - yet to see improvement
3. light weight Modular Kevlar Plates - so far adhoc
4. MOLLE system Combat Vests - so far adhoc
5. Suppressed weapons - Marginal -Uzis and Normal Barrel Lenght M4s
6. Uniform UNIFORMS - This is like takling to Santa
7. Proper sniping tools - not galatz and SVDs - Maybe one day post NSG's full load out
8. Dedicated Special Operation Rotary Units to compliment the C130s - Outfitted with SPJs and EW gear for Covert Ingress and Egress - Dedicated pilots who fly alongside operators day in and out in training
9. Replacement of those Gypsy/Jongas
10. why is the headgear of our SOF troops so random and adhoc?for Example VBSS Naval Security has better Headgear than MARCOS

All we are arguing is that SOF not be treated as the step child who everybody loves to do the dirty work and then forgets about them.

he assumption of superiority led commanders to push SF into situations where they were hopelessly outnumbered to the point where no amount of high tech can keep you alive.

Actually you will be surprised that they have had FAR more successes than failures. and not just SOF . Going down to even Light Infantry units like the 10th Mountain. and IMO i honestly dont think the Israeli's and Brits operate with that much of a drastic difference from the Americans.

The One key difference ofcourse being that while the American's fly into battle the rest of the world walks.

 

[mayfair]

Actually you will be surprised that they have had FAR more successes than failures. and not just SOF.

To be honest, isn't that the purpose of an SF or any army for that matter? To have FAR more successes than failures? Otherwise what's so "special" about them?

The question is without a statistical assessment of success-failure ratio across SFs, it's imprudent which SF ranks where in terms of these parameter. And it's safe to say that such information will be exceedingly difficult if not outright impossible to come by.

They wouldn't be very good SFs if they ops were known to all and sundry, would they?

 

[rkhanna]

To be honest, isn't that the purpose of an SF or any army for that matter? To have FAR more successes than failures? Otherwise what's so "special" about them?

The Context is sending a very small unit to achieve a mission against an overwhelming opposition. The Americans have pretty much worked it to a science. Ofcourse its because of C-130 Specters and Apaches and Predators above. But their footprint is minimal.

All i was trying to say that their way Actually does work and pointing out two recent failures does not prove otherwise.

And ofcourse it is almost impossible to judge the success and failures of SF/Intel Units. Failures get known global / success are rarely spoken about.

In the Indian Context Indian SF - Including NSG have one of the best records out there. But does not mean they can get better

 

[rkhanna]

Also it seems that people are skirting the issues that I raised. It's not just the equipment, it's the entire bloody ecosystem, which is the key here.

Agreed.

Ironically the Americans suffered the same fate twice. Post Vietnam and Post GWI.

It was Donald Rumfield who put the onus of the GWOT on SOF and they lead the fight from then. They stumbled greatly in the begining - Men, Equipment etc. But with enough Civilian Gov Patronage they have evolved.


Luckily they had the building blocks in place in the shape of JSOC and SOCOM - both of which btw have also evolved in the last 17/18 years. Just look at how ISA and CIA SAD has developed out.

The brits went through the same thing with Thatcher who placed great importance on the SBS/SAS

My point being the Ecosystem starts with our civlian masters - the rest will follow

 

[uoftotaku]

The diff in US ecosystem and India is that SF in US has a glamorous reputation in both civilian and military circles which allows them to operate in their own silo and gives them almost unquestioned access to funding, tech and operational freedom. In India the SF struggle for identification under the banner of Para and there always seems to be a general reluctance even within Army leadership to give the SF a separate identity so how can we expect the MoD, who are thoroughly backwards at the best of times, to take the lead in this matter? There is some progress now at least towards setting up a Joint SF Division (some news came recently IIRC) but lets see if Army allows it to function. I remember well the backroom mess created to sabotage creation of a Commando Regiment way back when. The same selfish badge loyalty still pervades Army leadership today

 

[rkhanna]

^^^ Agree 100%

Did you know we actually had a Special Forces Regiment in the 90s for a couple of years. It took the "pride" out of the Para Regt so the politics of the army abolished the SF regiment and reverted the battalions back to the Para's.

A few years ago a vanilla Para Battalion CO had the balls to go to the Regt CO and say that we do the same work as the SF battalions and hence we should get the same hazard duty pay and even threatened to go on strike. To save face (the powers that be gave in.

But just to add. the Americans Specially didnt have it so easy either. They spend the bulk of the 90's (Post GWI) and 80's (post Vietnam) getting the same disdane and stepfatherly treatment from the Regular US Forces.

 

[debspark90]

21st Para The Waghnakhs

 

[rkhanna]

They are called the waghnakhs because of their Maratha LI heritage

 

[binayak95]

They are called the waghnakhs because of their Maratha LI heritage

I was about to say this sir! The 21 Maratha LI has a rich history and heritage. Was reading about them, the other day. Formed in 1768 as the 103rd Marathas, it is the senior most Light Infantry regiment of the Army.