Indian Special Forces (archived)

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I don't know about the jackets sir but I'll say that the boots are a good investment.

Anyone who's done even a little bit of trekking or riding would testify that a good boot makes a lot of difference when it comes to fatigue or protection.

And if I remember correctly, the Bravo Two Zero patrol of the SAS which got ambushed during Desert Storm, Chris Ryan was able to escape by walking a humongous distance... And he attributed that to him investing in good boots by himself and not carrying the standard issue British Army boots.

Yes thats right but a 200$ boot?

I could buy you a UNDER ARMOUR boot for half that price.

I myself have a good collection of boots and i think there are many cheaper options available specially in India which has a good shoe making industry.

Woodland boots starts from 1/4 that price and are also manufactured in India.A bulk order would get it more cheaper.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Don't know if this belongs here but anyway
Brother(COBRA battalion) sent some photos

Sniping with scope

COBRA standard issue FOB pistol

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Btw saw the videos again. Since we all loved the video - my 2 paisa critiques for what its worth

In the beginning of the video (in the in door shooting range). The shooters are shooting at targets with their secondary weapons. BOTH of them take their eyes of the target to holster the gun. IMO the position of the holster on the chest is a Bad idea. ALWAYS going to happen. Environments like 26/11 are unforgiving. Losing situational awareness for even a second can be deadly. Also their ability to draw quickly is going to be greatly hampered while transitioning from primary to secondary.

In another place where the assaulters are entering a structure. one of the shooters has a hip holster but its so high up on the hip that part of the butt is getting covered/obstructed by his backpack. Again this guy is going to loose valuable seconds if it comes down to it.

Nice observation.

This is something ALL of our SF lack in.These days there are many instructors who teach such things but come with a heavy price tag.The good thing is that they are independent.

So the force should make a investment and it will go a long way in helping their cause.

 

[rkhanna]

Nice observation.

This is something ALL of our SF lack in.These days there are many instructors who teach such things but come with a heavy price tag.The good thing is that they are independent.

So the force should make a investment and it will go a long way in helping their cause.

Well hoping the the increased cross training with American ODA and various other units (GSG-9) etc pays off.

PS. I have however seen the Army SF do transition (primary and secondary and mag change) training very effectively. Shooters are issued mags by instructors - not all mags are full with varying number of bullets and the shooters dont know, forced stoppages, forcing transitions and quick mag changes (with Tavors!) it was done beautifully.

PS regarding Instructor Zero - i am a fan (even though he does get a bit of a bad rep) . He is ex Italian Army - currently trains civilians and Police units across america, and SOF units Across the world. He has recently done an extensive training program with BOPE -> Closest CT/COIN unit to NSG there is in the world when it comes to mission profile and operating envoirment. (GIGN/GSG-9/HRT - all primarily urban units and will struggle in Semi/Urban/Rural envoirments)

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Decades of private news media and they still cant produce a documentary 25% as good as RSTV*.

*Only recent exceptions such as Veer (Discovery) and History TV

ID t-shirt insignia:

View attachment 23919

I have watched the video 2/3 times and i think it is Vicky Kapoor who was monitoring the shooting drills of the NSG operators.

Here is who he is..


https://www.ultimate-kravmaga.com/about/vicky-kapoor

 

[rkhanna]

Everything I know about Vicky Kapoor is that he is a Martial Arts instructor who become a Combative Arts instructor (Krav Maga) etc and through certification courses (Israel and elsewhere) become a Close protection detail tactics instructor . I dont think he is a shooting instructor.

But nonetheless you have highlighted an interesting point

One of the sad things about the Indian post military experience is that due to the lack of a Military Industrial Complex - the Social and Political infrastructure does not exist for Indian Military personel to become entrepreneurs in the "MIC Service" space.

- Every soldier with YEARS of experience ends up developing and innovating SOP's that his experience has taught him is more efficient. Once these gents leave the Military that knowledge is slowly lost over time.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Everything I know about Vicky Kapoor is that he is a Martial Arts instructor who become a Combative Arts instructor (Krav Maga) etc and through certification courses (Israel and elsewhere) become a Close protection detail tactics instructor . I dont think he is a shooting instructor.

But nonetheless you have highlighted an interesting point

One of the sad things about the Indian post military experience is that due to the lack of a Military Industrial Complex - the Social and Political infrastructure does not exist for Indian Military personel to become entrepreneurs in the "MIC Service" space.

- Every soldier with YEARS of experience ends up developing and innovating SOP's that his experience has taught him is more efficient. Once these gents leave the Military that knowledge is slowly lost over time.

He is a military instructor trained in Israel as per his skills and qualifications mentioned in his site.

So he must be having some military training and he is holding real guns.

But real military instructors have no substitute in weapons training.

Where in India will civilians get access to such weapons and firing ranges...I cannot get my hands on a decent Airsoft rifle till now.

Things are different abroad.

Ex military guys have made a living of their military skill and become quite wealthy and in India the best they get is to be a security head of some company or a manager which doesnt develop their skill or utilise it to the max.

We need a joint training and procurement command also.

We should hire some qualified weapons expert and utilise their skill even if its expensive.It is a big investment in the right direction.

A guy like Instructor Zero can be invited to SFS Nahan and either the instructors can be trained who pass the knowledge or bulk training which i dont recommend.

This will develop the right skill.

If we become really neutral and analyse our SF ..we have to go a long way in many things.

 

[rkhanna]

He is a military instructor trained in Israel as per his skills and qualifications mentioned in his site.

So he must be having some military training and he is holding real guns.

In the West and Israel a civilian can get certified as a firearms instructor. Vicky has no military background AFAIK.

India sadly has no such concept so in the land of the Blind the one eyed (vicky) is king. - not taking away his achievements or anything like that - just saying while he would be great for police units - he would be sub-optimal as a firearms instructor for SOF units.

 

[rkhanna]

If we become really neutral and analyse our SF ..we have to go a long way in many things.

Agree 100%.


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[abingdonboy]

26/27 SCG also seems interesting.

I wonder if these are the air marshal unit inside NSG? The snapshot of their training seemed to emphasise hand to hand combat in a seeming confined enviroment.

Btw saw the videos again. Since we all loved the video - my 2 paisa critiques for what its worth

In the beginning of the video (in the in door shooting range). The shooters are shooting at targets with their secondary weapons. BOTH of them take their eyes of the target to holster the gun. IMO the position of the holster on the chest is a Bad idea. ALWAYS going to happen. Environments like 26/11 are unforgiving. Losing situational awareness for even a second can be deadly. Also their ability to draw quickly is going to be greatly hampered while transitioning from primary to secondary.

In another place where the assaulters are entering a structure. one of the shooters has a hip holster but its so high up on the hip that part of the butt is getting covered/obstructed by his backpack. Again this guy is going to loose valuable seconds if it comes down to it.

The chest rig vs hip vs thigh holster debate has gone on for a while and there are costs and benefits to all three.

Chest- (pros) provides less issues with rigging and doesn't get in the way during kinetic ops, can also allow for the operator to easily reach for their sidearm when in confined spaces or when seated. (cons) as you have stated they can be trickier to re-holster.

Thigh- (pros) easily incorporated into transitions from primary to secondary weapon. (cons) gets in the way when running, not as easily acsessible when seated.

Hip- (pros) can fit nicely next to a plate carrier and will allow you to be free to run (unlike thigh holster), a more natural postion for acsessibility and with training will be second nature to locate it without taking one's eyes off the target. (cons), almost impossible to reach when seated or in a very tight space.


I think the most common method is hip holster as far as the NSG goes and this also seems to be the direction that Western SOFs have gone.

Nice observation.

This is something ALL of our SF lack in.These days there are many instructors who teach such things but come with a heavy price tag.The good thing is that they are independent.

So the force should make a investment and it will go a long way in helping their cause.

This kind of shooting is mostly for sport, it's not really taught to military guys.

BUT, i absolutely agree that the Indian mil need to bring in such guys to polish their tactical firing drills. I think this is an area where Indian units have improved signficantly in the last few years but you still see some poor displays on occasion.

I have watched the video 2/3 times and i think it is Vicky Kapoor who was monitoring the shooting drills of the NSG operators.

Here is who he is..


https://www.ultimate-kravmaga.com/about/vicky-kapoor

Honesltly think it's disgusting to see such outside CIVILIANS with zero mil/LEO experience teaching/overseeing small arms firing for elite units. His expertise is Krav Maga, that is all he should be teaching. That he has held a gun in his life doesn't qualify him in anyway.

Perhaps the most disgraceful thing is that this piece of sh*t was ever given tax payer money to train combat units:

I also think it was particuarly wrong to be allowing that married couple to train Indian units in hand to hand combat.

If we become really neutral and analyse our SF ..we have to go a long way in many things.

Biggest issue is mindset, there needs to be a recognition that these elite units are STRATEGIC assets and should be treated as such. The recent splurge in "commando" units across India where every tom dick and harry has slapped a "commando" tag on their shoulder and claimed they are somehow a special unit has highlighted just how embarrsingly ignorant most are about these things.

+ @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR NSG and SPG are trained in Krav Maga but the Mil SFs are trained in PTK?

 

[mayfair]

If we become really neutral and analyse our SF ..we have to go a long way in many things.

I think we need such types of brutally honest introspection. Could @abingdonboy @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR and @rkhanna summarise some of these pressing issues?

They could be divided into two broad categories
1. Tactics, training and experience.
2. Equipment.

 

[abingdonboy]

1. Tactics, training and experience.

It's hard to give a fair assesment on training and tactics as naturally you will only see a very limited insight into this but it does seem that Indian SFs have stepped this up in recent times and the fact that there is more convergence between their training and Western training highlights there were/are issues in the past.

Experience is a HUGE issue IMHO, whilst there is the conventional argument that Indian SFs (particuarly PARA (SF)) are highly experience and have ongoing exposure to combat I'm going to go out on a limg and say this is pretty limited in nature.

Western SFs are deployed GLOBALLY and in very varied roles, and this does play a huge part in experience the fact that Indian SFs have been fighting the same enemy for decades means there is a level of stagnations. All NATO SFs sent teams to Afghan and many to Iraq for example and they took part not just in "conventional" SF ops during the invasion but in COIN/CT in the years after. Then you have France, US, UK and Russia (to an extent) that deploy their SFs on almost every continent, train local units on the battlefeild (this is very different to the semi-regular but limited in nature joint exercises that Indian SFs may occasionally do with friendly nations' SFs).


When the US can deploy one of their most elite units to the middle of the Indian Ocean (Mearsk Alabama incident) within a matter of a few hours and these guys jump into the water with all their relevent kit and do their job flawlessly it highlights just how "ready" they are, they are trained, equipped and capable of a HUGE variety of tasks.

This is something Indian SFs could only dream about.

At SEAL team 6's HQ each operator has an entire "cage" to themselves packed from floor to ceiling with specialist equipment tailored to their own role (in the team) and within that cage there are "ready bags" labelled "arctic", "jungle", "maritime" etc with kit for each induvidual mission or enviroment already assembled and ready to go, these guys are on alert to respond to any crisis anywhere in the world within literally hours.

2. Equipment.

This is a pretty depressing topic, it's hard to see any area where Indian SFs are within 15 years of the top tier Western SOFs:

- Weapons
- PPE (helmets, plate carriers etc)
- Optics
-NODs
-Comms
- Support equipment
- Dedicated transport (the best India has is some C-130Js and Dhruvs/Sea Kings)




Indian SFs are tough but their actual COMBAT abilities are well short IMHO, this is the cold hard reality.

 

[mayfair]

I agree with the experience bit, actually that has always been one of the chief concerns in my opinion. Indian SFs as we know have been active mostly in India and on occasions as a part of the UN Peace-keeping operations such as Op. Khukri. Our forces have also operated and in some instances are operating in Maldives, China/Tibet, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Myanmar.

But this does not compare with extensive operational and warfare experience that the Western, Russian and East European SFs have racked up all over the world. But that will require a major change in foreign policy and operational capabilities so that our SFs can be deployed anywhere at a short notice.

Frankly speaking, I do not see that happening for a very long time, for several reasons
1. Our policies have never been about power-projection. It'll be interesting to see how this will change once our overseas military bases come up.
2. We are largely a status quo and a reactive power- don't see that changing either anytime soon.

The reasons for both are clear- it's the economy AND the lack of a worthwhile military-industrial complex. Until our economy reaches a level where we can afford to have operational capabilities with global reach, we will hover in the middle/upper-middle tier without ever reaching the top tier.

And then there are some who are perplexed as to why GoI is primarily focussed on the economy and infrastructure.

 

[rkhanna]

Making some brief points (jumbled) outside of experience . Will post a detailed post later.

a). - An integrated Sniper School (more than one is possible but they need to be reading and playing out of the me play book) for ALL sniper training. Not just SOF. a sniper is a sniper. Whether he is Army, SF, Garud or MARCOS or BSF. The level of the training and selection for this specific team function has to be the SAME.

A ghatak sniper should be seamlessly be able to be slotted into an SF team for mission support. SOPs,

A critical Demarkation between a DM and a sniper needs to be maintained

b) CQB/HRT training specially around Aircraft take downs needs to be greatly enhanced. NSG personal need to be put on deputations inside airports to gain experience as baggage handlers and porters etc - Simply no other way to know the ins and outs of Airport Operations.

Similarly NSG personal need to spend time at Aircraft maintenance yards to know how the inside's and an Airplane work ACROSS TYPES and DESIGNATIONS.

c) further enhance and integrate SOF and SOF Support Units across the board for task force type operations. the SFF and Para's need to be built up to be integrated into SOF ops

d) OWN integrated Aviation Wing. Across the board.

e) ABSOLUTELY STOP supporting the CASO operations in Kashmir (with the exception of HRT). Waste of time and precious SOF manpower to make Local Conventional Commanders look good. In Kashmir and NE SOF should be doing 3-4 day LRRPs in rotation and hunting Jihadis far from urban centers. In Urban Centers SOF personal along with J&K SOG should only do recce of OGWs and other personalities to build a better intelligence picture of the battlespace. - READ UP on how the SAS was deployed in NI.

IMO we have spent too long fighting against our current threats that we have lost the ball for training for future threat. the Future could be fighting the SSG and the PLA. Both worthy opponents.

Our SOF still has no experience fighting in an integrated and dynamic battle space and NO unit in India has experience or training for the sole purpose of prepping a battle space before the induction of large formations into theater. The US Army Rangers, Marine EU and Force Marines play a critical and vital role in doing just that ahead of US involvement

We can Break down our total SF teams by 1/3 - 1/3 Do Active Ops across India, 1/3 Do continuous training within India and 1/3 are always forward deployed - UN Ops, Indian Mil Bases, Training Foriegn Units, Cross training with foriegn units - and not just the same staple. I mean the Israelis, GROM, Aussies, Malayisans etc.

THe above more than anything will need SERIOUS political will.


f) our SOF troops need a direct equivalent for the American ISA concept. We had that - it was called TSD - Bring it back.

g) SOF personal NEED to be deployed in very very small teams as advisors/ support in ASTAN. Valuable experience and will build relations

h) SG needs to have permanent cadre if it is ever going to be effective.

i) FID - SOF units need to rebuild and relearn the skill of Foreign Internal Defence. Start small in Kashmir and NE and Afghanistan. Along with Intelligence agencies start building a network in Balouch, POK, Tibet. - Currently our SOF forces have spent 15 years doing DA missions or simply responding to Incidents. we need to break this one dimensional mold we have gotten into - READ - Masters of Chaos for perspective.

j) - built up capability in Psychological Warfare. During the invasion of Iraq a Platoon of Delta Force with 2 Abram Tanks and 1 Apache managed to get an entire Iraqi Armoured brigade to surrender thinking they were facing a US Armoured Formation.

k) Train train and train again in Night time ops. We need to expand our tech and operational capability in Night Warefare (even in the mountains) we are still a generation behind.

L) Suppressed Small Arms - It doesn't really make things quiet but it helps the shooting team get an upper hand in the chaos of battle. the USMC had a beautifully long post on their FB page on the pros of Suppressed weapons

M) my fav pet peeve. ISR and COMMS. Even the Pakis have superior COMMS to us today (yes donated by America but why cant we make inhouse or buy?). The most successfuly SOF ops are when the outcome of a battle is decided over a radio.

 

[rkhanna]

It's a marketing strategy, and only now being used by politicians Nothing new

Chest- (pros) provides less issues with rigging and doesn't get in the way during kinetic ops, can also allow for the operator to easily reach for their sidearm when in confined spaces or when seated. (cons) as you have stated they can be trickier to re-holster.

Thigh- (pros) easily incorporated into transitions from primary to secondary weapon. (cons) gets in the way when running, not as easily acsessible when seated.

Hip- (pros) can fit nicely next to a plate carrier and will allow you to be free to run (unlike thigh holster), a more natural postion for acsessibility and with training will be second nature to locate it without taking one's eyes off the target. (cons), almost impossible to reach when seated or in a very tight space.

We are talking about CT/HRT units. Various kinds of dropleg hostlers are out there which make it very very convenient to run with. I my self have tried it. and works fine in confined spaces. AND EVEN more valuable when lying prone on the ground.

Only time a Chest rig comes in handy is if you get ambushed inside a vehicle. LOW chance of that happening to NSG. - so makes sense for a LRRP but not for a urban CT/Unit.

200 years of America. "wild west" history has shown that the hip holster is the more natural position .

A chest rig also has the con of various other things getting stuck on it. Including the sling of your primary.

KIT is not about fashion its about functionality and increasing the efficiency and life expectancy of a soldier in battle.

 

[Bornubus]

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[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

@abingdonboy

I am sorry bro i dont agree with the sport comment.

You know room interventions or close combat is not programmed and any situation can evolve.

What if a operator passes a door and the guy is on the top of a almirah behind the door hiding ..just a hypothetical situation ok...in such a situation lets say if the operator has practised and his SF has invested in such drills it will help.

Russian Spetsnaz were made fun of by US SF guys in many videos for having such drills but nowadays i see many SF including Para and NSG practising this.

And we should also remember the Wild West shootdown scene where one guy jumps and fires and kills the other guy... :biggrin2art of many Hollywood movies.

---------------------------

Yea PTK for military and Krav Maga for NSG.I will soon get a chance to meet a NSG guy so i will ask him.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

@mayfair

I will make short points as i am on a work trip now.

*Dedicated Sniper schools and knowing the difference between Snipers and a DM.

*Standard gear for all SF..a Joint procurement and training command.

*Hiring contract based instructors for expert training and lessons learnt by them.

*Grooming and education.

*better gear and weapons.

*Air Assets

*NSG talent and training should not be wasted by sending them back to Infantry units.

*Marcos and Garud to take care of Kashmir ops..Para for Cross LOC and other ops.

*Regular lectures on security situation in the country and abroad of all the SF.

*Ghataks should be given more respect..training should be continous and a badge for their Arms to give them recognition.

*SF gear for Ghataks.

Lastly,all SF operators should be given equal exposure.

Experience wise i think we are very well.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

It's hard to give a fair assesment on training and tactics as naturally you will only see a very limited insight into this but it does seem that Indian SFs have stepped this up in recent times and the fact that there is more convergence between their training and Western training highlights there were/are issues in the past.

Experience is a HUGE issue IMHO, whilst there is the conventional argument that Indian SFs (particuarly PARA (SF)) are highly experience and have ongoing exposure to combat I'm going to go out on a limg and say this is pretty limited in nature.

Western SFs are deployed GLOBALLY and in very varied roles, and this does play a huge part in experience the fact that Indian SFs have been fighting the same enemy for decades means there is a level of stagnations. All NATO SFs sent teams to Afghan and many to Iraq for example and they took part not just in "conventional" SF ops during the invasion but in COIN/CT in the years after. Then you have France, US, UK and Russia (to an extent) that deploy their SFs on almost every continent, train local units on the battlefeild (this is very different to the semi-regular but limited in nature joint exercises that Indian SFs may occasionally do with friendly nations' SFs).


When the US can deploy one of their most elite units to the middle of the Indian Ocean (Mearsk Alabama incident) within a matter of a few hours and these guys jump into the water with all their relevent kit and do their job flawlessly it highlights just how "ready" they are, they are trained, equipped and capable of a HUGE variety of tasks.

This is something Indian SFs could only dream about.

At SEAL team 6's HQ each operator has an entire "cage" to themselves packed from floor to ceiling with specialist equipment tailored to their own role (in the team) and within that cage there are "ready bags" labelled "arctic", "jungle", "maritime" etc with kit for each induvidual mission or enviroment already assembled and ready to go, these guys are on alert to respond to any crisis anywhere in the world within literally hours.



This is a pretty depressing topic, it's hard to see any area where Indian SFs are within 15 years of the top tier Western SOFs:

- Weapons
- PPE (helmets, plate carriers etc)
- Optics
-NODs
-Comms
- Support equipment
- Dedicated transport (the best India has is some C-130Js and Dhruvs/Sea Kings)




Indian SFs are tough but their actual COMBAT abilities are well short IMHO, this is the cold hard reality.

Bro the deployment is based on the foreign policy.The SF has no hand in it.

But some of our deployments have been in Maldives and Africa under the UN flag.

Marcos have also done a good job in the Gulf of Aden.

Equipment wise i agree we are 15 years behind.

You name it and the equipment is 10 years old.

 

[Darth Malgus]

One Question. Is this "Shifuji" guy for real or a conman ?