Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Prayash]

"The NSG urgently needs a helicopter. The chopper may be given from the existing fleet of the Border Security Force or from the Indian Air Force. We are working on it"

 

[rkhanna]

"The NSG urgently needs a helicopter. The chopper may be given from the existing fleet of the Border Security Force or from the Indian Air Force. We are working on it"

This goes back to my previous argument that our policy makers done know their arse from their mouth. A SOF needs dedicated Aviation assets which are specially outfitted for their needs with dedicated pilots who even the the operators know in and out. SOF aviation is NOT one size fits all.

So while this Helicopter is welcome there is no statement on a dedicated Fixed wing and Rotary fleet for the NSG.

Jugaad is great for a stopgap. But in India Jugaad has a bad habit of becoming permanent SOP (just like at the patka for Example)

 

[aditya g]

In a large country like India no force can have heptr coverage everywhere. The NSG needs to tie up with IAF to provide air transport in a formal institutionalised way.

There are precedents like ANTF established by IAF in naxal areas.

IAF should convert hindan into a SOF hub from where garuds, NSG and SOF can procure nationwide air logistics solution.

This goes back to my previous argument that our policy makers done know their arse from their mouth. A SOF needs dedicated Aviation assets which are specially outfitted for their needs with dedicated pilots who even the the operators know in and out. SOF aviation is NOT one size fits all.

So while this Helicopter is welcome there is no statement on a dedicated Fixed wing and Rotary fleet for the NSG.

Jugaad is great for a stopgap. But in India Jugaad has a bad habit of becoming permanent SOP (just like at the patka for Example)

 

[rkhanna]

In a large country like India no force can have heptr coverage everywhere. The NSG needs to tie up with IAF to provide air transport in a formal institutionalised way.

There are precedents like ANTF established by IAF in naxal areas.

IAF should convert hindan into a SOF hub from where garuds, NSG and SOF can procure nationwide air logistics solution.

I disgaree. Two Dhruvs for assualting +1 LUH/Cheetah for Recce/Sniper support + 1x Dornier for every NSG Hub Is ENOUGH. Long Haul/ Larger Capacity Assets such as Mil-17s/C-130s/ Transports can always be seconded from the Broader secondary forces or from Civilian Aviation.

NSG hubs are in the primary city centers (tier I cities) and 9/10 times that is where they will operate. NSG is not meant to cover the entire lenght and breath of this country on a QRT basis.

You are missing my point. Helo's requirement is for 2 parts - 1) Assaulting and Recce 2) Transport.

for 1) you absolutely NEED native assets where the pilots train day in and day out for their mission alongside the shooters they plan to put on the roof of a building. The pilots in this Case as similar to shooters. i.e they too are assaulters in mindset. and this btw is just not for NSG . Extrapolate to other SOF as well. Take the 160th SOAR for example. SImply the camaraderie they share with SOCOM soldiers and the level of cross training makes them bettter at what they do.

If you remember 26/11 - You had a big lumbering Mil-17 putting Shooters on a roof. 2x ALH would have had a smaller footprint and done the similar job quieter and faster.

for 2) what you suggested - formalized policy of borrowing military and civilian assets is fine and will suffice.As thats simply transport.


PS - all of the above has been brought up by the NSG from time to time. Only to be either ignored to given makeshift answers.

Hell even the ~Hubs~ are a half assed job. forget about poor infra like shooting rangers, dormitaries, etc. (in the case of Mumbai) is stuck in the middle of marol (hella crowded with high rises all around them)- right next to the airport where (even if they had helos) would require ATC permission to fly for the fear of being in the path of civilian traffic.

 

[mayfair]

@rkhanna, I agree, though I am not too sure about Dorniers being very useful.

 

[rkhanna]

I agree, though I am not too sure about Dorniers being very useful.

Well Dorniers (in my armchair general eyes) are cheap / locally servicable . Have a 2500km Range and Payload of 2 Tons. It gives the NSG to quickly sent an Advance Element to a far away location before the rest of the force arrives. It also allows for use from small airstrips with minimum infrastructure.

That being said i agree with you. Interchange Dornier with any Medium fixed wing if you will but My ORBAT for a Hub

Native Assets: (for use within a prescribed Radius of Base)
2x ALH (Assaulters)
1x - Cheetah/LUH (recce)
1x Medium Fixed WIng

Currently NSG has the following Primary Hubs outside of HQ in Manesar

Mumbai
Kolkata
Hydrebad
Chennai

With Support/training Hubs in Gujarat, Punjab, Etc to beef up their internal SWAT capability.

Hell Even if you double the number of Hubs and Double the Number of Assets I am talking about Thats a Total of

32 Dhruvs
8 LUHs
8 Fixed Wings

Any Borrowed Assets will be use outside of Operation Radius as above but within Area of Responsibilty
(IAF/Civilian)


But the sad reality is that when the Southern Regional Center of the NSG has pending for 3 years after authorization I dont have hope for anything to happen.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Any helicopter or Air support elements require maintenance,training and supply.Hence NSG cannot just procure these elemtns without support of the Air force.

Hence the best platform for transport can only be C130J and a treaty with all the Airlines which already exists.

Coming to Sniper and Recce missions the Chetak is doing a good job in the valley and is our Little Bird that we can use to put a team of 4 for recce or sniping.

However,ALH is the platofrm for the future and any such platform should be raised with the help of either Army(who do these kind of missions regularly) or the AF(whose ego wont be hurt).

 

[mayfair]

@rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

I agree with both of you and you make valid points, though I should point out that having a dedicated air support element may not be as big a challenge as we imagine.

I believe BSF has its own, plus many civilian governments have their fleet of choppers and pilots, not to mention air ambulances. In such case it doesn't appear unreasonable or impractical for NSG hubs to retain a dedicated airwing of their own. It's not that they necessarily need gunships, they need choppers for recce and quick transport.

Fixed wing aircraft will help if NSG hubs have a dedicated air strip or access to one nearby. This needs proper planning, something that seems to be sadly lacking.

 

[rkhanna]

Any helicopter or Air support elements require maintenance,training and supply.Hence NSG cannot just procure these elemtns without support of the Air force.

Sirji. What I am saying is that if you commit to building a Native Aviation Unit the above would be part and parcel of the Units Budget.

For the above to happen there has to be a strategic re-orientation in the mindsets not only of our politicians but also our Security Czars.

An NSG Aviation Unit (since its fantasy, please indulge me) will share training and logistics burden with SOCOM's (again Fantasy at this point) Aviation Unit.

To Expect Army Aviators who fly day in and Day out irrespective of conditions in the valley and siachen etc to perform with the same amount of competence in an Urban City like Mumbai is simply NOT going to happen.

My Logic is this. If Army Aviation Can exist without IAF support then SOCOM Aviation is a No Brainer. And thereby NSG Aviation. What is required is balls, Foresight and Capital.


PS. Completely agree with the Cheetah/Liittle Bird comparision. thats why i brought it up.

 

[rkhanna]

@rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

I agree with both of you and you make valid points, though I should point out that having a dedicated air support element may not be as big a challenge as we imagine.

I believe BSF has its own, plus many civilian governments have their fleet of choppers and pilots, not to mention air ambulances. In such case it doesn't appear unreasonable or impractical for NSG hubs to retain a dedicated airwing of their own. It's not that they necessarily need gunships, they need choppers for recce and quick transport.

Fixed wing aircraft will help if NSG hubs have a dedicated air strip or access to one nearby. This needs proper planning, something that seems to be sadly lacking.

Completely agree on the BSF point. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

@rkhanna @mayfair

Ok gentlemen,i have your point of view and heres my take on it.

BSF as you rightly mentioned has its own air wing BUT doesnt maintain it and is done by a 3rd party IAF/Pawan Hans.So,if NSG was to have its own air wing it has to contact the 3rd party or build a dedicated maintenance squad on deputation from the IAF.

What i would also recommend like you is to have a SOCOM air wing with C130,Mi17 and even chetaks and have guys from the IAF take care of it.

.....................................................................................................

Another thing i can share with you guys without revealing too much is that guys NSG has access to all the aircraft on Indian airports whenever it wants and Delhi is the place even a civilian can see how close NSG is to the airport.There are AF assets round the clock available to the NSG.

But we should obviously have dedicated units and pilots and engineers!!

Army or the AF whoever provides pilots doesnt matter.

P.S -Dedicated maintenance squads will ensure reliability which BSF air wing and air ambulances lack.

 

[aditya g]

NSG is not meant to cover the entire lenght and breath of this country on a QRT basis.

I hope you see the irony of the statement given that we are talking about equipping NSG with helicopters. If not for Quick Reaction, then why do we need organic chopper units in NSG?

So far our experience of keeping a military air unit outside the military has not been successful. The only success is the ARC under RAW. Unfortunately, the last news was that the ARC was to be wound up.Experience with BSF Air Wing has been not very great. Choppers have always been non serviceable. Local state governments bought choppers for police use but that was also inconsistent. Similar fate can meet NSG Air wing also.

The best bet is to look to IAF to have a detachment of choppers dedicated to NSG. Perhaps 1 chopper always on standby in Manesar and others to fly in from Hindan from where on NSG can fly to anywhere in the country on 77 Sqn's C-130s.

I am also not in favour of local hubs for NSG. Local police units should be skilled enough to at least stall the terrorists till the NSG arrives from Delhi.

I disgaree. Two Dhruvs for assualting +1 LUH/Cheetah for Recce/Sniper support + 1x Dornier for every NSG Hub Is ENOUGH. Long Haul/ Larger Capacity Assets such as Mil-17s/C-130s/ Transports can always be seconded from the Broader secondary forces or from Civilian Aviation.

NSG hubs are in the primary city centers (tier I cities) and 9/10 times that is where they will operate. NSG is not meant to cover the entire lenght and breath of this country on a QRT basis.

You are missing my point. Helo's requirement is for 2 parts - 1) Assaulting and Recce 2) Transport.

for 1) you absolutely NEED native assets where the pilots train day in and day out for their mission alongside the shooters they plan to put on the roof of a building. The pilots in this Case as similar to shooters. i.e they too are assaulters in mindset. and this btw is just not for NSG . Extrapolate to other SOF as well. Take the 160th SOAR for example. SImply the camaraderie they share with SOCOM soldiers and the level of cross training makes them bettter at what they do.

If you remember 26/11 - You had a big lumbering Mil-17 putting Shooters on a roof. 2x ALH would have had a smaller footprint and done the similar job quieter and faster.

for 2) what you suggested - formalized policy of borrowing military and civilian assets is fine and will suffice.As thats simply transport.


PS - all of the above has been brought up by the NSG from time to time. Only to be either ignored to given makeshift answers.

Hell even the ~Hubs~ are a half assed job. forget about poor infra like shooting rangers, dormitaries, etc. (in the case of Mumbai) is stuck in the middle of marol (hella crowded with high rises all around them)- right next to the airport where (even if they had helos) would require ATC permission to fly for the fear of being in the path of civilian traffic.

Well Dorniers (in my armchair general eyes) are cheap / locally servicable . Have a 2500km Range and Payload of 2 Tons. It gives the NSG to quickly sent an Advance Element to a far away location before the rest of the force arrives. It also allows for use from small airstrips with minimum infrastructure.

That being said i agree with you. Interchange Dornier with any Medium fixed wing if you will but My ORBAT for a Hub

Native Assets: (for use within a prescribed Radius of Base)
2x ALH (Assaulters)
1x - Cheetah/LUH (recce)
1x Medium Fixed WIng

Currently NSG has the following Primary Hubs outside of HQ in Manesar

Mumbai
Kolkata
Hydrebad
Chennai

With Support/training Hubs in Gujarat, Punjab, Etc to beef up their internal SWAT capability.

Hell Even if you double the number of Hubs and Double the Number of Assets I am talking about Thats a Total of

32 Dhruvs
8 LUHs
8 Fixed Wings

Any Borrowed Assets will be use outside of Operation Radius as above but within Area of Responsibilty
(IAF/Civilian)


But the sad reality is that when the Southern Regional Center of the NSG has pending for 3 years after authorization I dont have hope for anything to happen.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

NSG is not meant to cover the entire lenght and breath of this country on a QRT basis.

I hope you see the irony of the statement given that we are talking about equipping NSG with helicopters. If not for Quick Reaction, then why do we need organic chopper units in NSG?

So far our experience of keeping a military air unit outside the military has not been successful. The only success is the ARC under RAW. Unfortunately, the last news was that the ARC was to be wound up.Experience with BSF Air Wing has been not very great. Choppers have always been non serviceable. Local state governments bought choppers for police use but that was also inconsistent. Similar fate can meet NSG Air wing also.

The best bet is to look to IAF to have a detachment of choppers dedicated to NSG. Perhaps 1 chopper always on standby in Manesar and others to fly in from Hindan from where on NSG can fly to anywhere in the country on 77 Sqn's C-130s.

I am also not in favour of local hubs for NSG. Local police units should be skilled enough to at least stall the terrorists till the NSG arrives from Delhi.

I agree with your POV and a slight error i would like to point out..

ARC has civil components..very main components.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

PARA SF ...................

=========================

 

[Krusty]

Do our soldiers get the commercially available MRE dishes?
I have had 5/10 Palak Paneer from ITC Aashirvad(?) which had "Process developed by DRDO" or something to that extent printed on the pack.
I am also an ardent fan of MRE taste test videos on YouTube but not a single video on our Military MRE!
(And we practically own the flavour world with our exquisite spices and mouthwatering cuisine!)
And my personal favourite:

@hammer head @Bornubus @Kunal Biswas and others with access to our Military MRE, a humble request from my end is that a taste test video be uploaded on YouTube!

There is a thread on MRE rations. You can post there ... it has died down lately, maybe you can spark some life into it.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/mre-rations.78124/


Also I see @zala09 might be interested

 

[Kunal Biswas]

PARA SF.

=================================================

 

[tharun]

PARA SF.

=================================================

Three different patterns of uniform in one pic...

 

[rkhanna]

I agree with your POV and a slight error i would like to point out..

ARC has civil components..very main components.

ARC pilots are all ex - Military - Army Aviation and AF.

NSG is not meant to cover the entire lenght and breath of this country on a QRT basis.

I hope you see the irony of the statement given that we are talking about equipping NSG with helicopters. If not for Quick Reaction, then why do we need organic chopper units in NSG?

So far our experience of keeping a military air unit outside the military has not been successful. The only success is the ARC under RAW. Unfortunately, the last news was that the ARC was to be wound up.Experience with BSF Air Wing has been not very great. Choppers have always been non serviceable. Local state governments bought choppers for police use but that was also inconsistent. Similar fate can meet NSG Air wing also.

The best bet is to look to IAF to have a detachment of choppers dedicated to NSG. Perhaps 1 chopper always on standby in Manesar and others to fly in from Hindan from where on NSG can fly to anywhere in the country on 77 Sqn's C-130s.

I am also not in favour of local hubs for NSG. Local police units should be skilled enough to at least stall the terrorists till the NSG arrives from Delhi.

Regarding your QRT. NSG is not a QRT force. It is a Dedicated into CT/HRT unit. There is a difference. For Strategic / National Priorities (i.e Tier I Cities / NS Assets - Nuclear plants etc) they WILL be the first responder and QRT. But they CANNOT play that role for the Whole country. Local SWAT teams will play that role.

Understand that NSG is strategic. LIke FBI HRT or GSG-9 or RAID/GIGN

Helicopters like i said play 2 roles 1) Transport (to get their fast) 2) Assault and Recce Support.

The 2nd part has no basis if they are QRT or not. It has to do with how they intend to take down a structure. If they need a C&C Observation platform / Fire Support / Sniper Support.

Lastly. ARC has not been wound up. They have been amalgamated by another Alphabet soup in the National Intel restructuring. Their mission and assets remain the same.

And if you use the BSF story to say the same thing will happen to the NSG . then The Home Ministry Bureacrats, Minister, Head of NSG should be fired. the NSG disbanded and re-raised from the ground up.

BSF is a Border Defence Paramilitary Unit. The NSG is a STRATEGIC national asset for Extenuating circumstances.

 

[rishivashista13]

Tactical selfie ...........

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[Johny_Baba]

The pistols tucked in his pants...are those Beretta 92 s ?