Indian Special Forces (archived)

[aditya g]

Regional hubs are IMHO a terrible terrible idea. An elite outfit like NSG should be kept in one central place and have capability like organic C-130 and Mi-17 transport to move anywhere at short notice. They need to train hard and train together.

IMHO this decision reflects the empire building mindset of its police leadership.

Years ago, I read in operations book "the goal" a very basic lesson of day to day management: the slowest link in the chain slows down the whole chain. In the whole cycle of detection of terrorist strike to NSG pressing the trigger - what is the slowest link? If there were a terror strike in Gujarat, my flight time from Delhi is what ... 2 hours? IMHO this should be the last priority item to reduce.

+ can anyone explain to me the rationale of setting up the regional NSG hub in Gandhinagar? It's 40+ mins by road to the capital of the state and there is no airport anywhere near this site. The hub will have helipads but the purpose of these hubs is to be regional response centres, the Gujarat hub's teams could be sent anywhere in Western India and thus need to access to fixed wing aircraft.

Was this the only land the state government was willing to offer?


@Gessler @Kunal Biswas @HariPrasad-1 @aditya g

 

[abingdonboy]

Regional hubs are IMHO a terrible terrible idea. An elite outfit like NSG should be kept in one central place and have capability like organic C-130 and Mi-17 transport to move anywhere at short notice. They need to train hard and train together.

IMHO this decision reflects the empire building mindset of its police leadership.

Years ago, I read in operations book "the goal" a very basic lesson of day to day management: the slowest link in the chain slows down the whole chain. In the whole cycle of detection of terrorist strike to NSG pressing the trigger - what is the slowest link? If there were a terror strike in Gujarat, my flight time from Delhi is what ... 2 hours? IMHO this should be the last priority item to reduce.

I agree in part but in the absence of truly world class first it is the cost that has to be paid for such a geoprahicaly large nation such as India. The NSG's HQ is not centrally based meaning the South and West are particualy vulnerable.

Addtionally, the South has its own region training centre in Hydrabad now so there is still a lot of cross-training for all the different teams. Furthermore, given that the NSG is a deputaional force for operators serving 3 year tours all operators will be, relatively, freshly trained at the NSG's HQ.

With the kind of infrastructure being set up in each regional hub all operators should continue to hone their skills whilst at the hubs.

Also, I think a real strength of the hub concept is that as each hub has a specifc area of responisbility (AOR) they are all indepedantly conducting frequent training exercises with local first responders, are carrying out recces of all vulnerable spots in their AORs and are ready to operate in that specifc AOR. With a centrally based outfit there is NO way the teams will have such local information to hand in times of crisis and this can play a huge difference especially when it comes to liasing with local units and knowing layouts of target areas.


Do not forget, there is still a central unit- the Counter Terror task forcebased at Palam 24/7 that is the NSG's first response unit no matter what (these are the guys that went to Pathankot). The hubs are simply the first responders.

There are pros and cons to it but I think on balance it is a good idea.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In the above picture, The vehicle is stuffed with men with very limited space for weapons and movement for solider inside, In case of an ambush the vehicle design will restrict troop dispersion on ground at quick succession, It will sure lead to casualties ..

This is a reason to concern, Its not that i don`t love Maruti Jeep as its very resourceful in narrow roads and with quick acceleration with minimum sound, But everything has its place and design limits..

The vehicle is not design for military application but improvised and using this for every application in military sense is no longer applicable when their are better options available..

People in Army are not very much involved into tacticool area nor like it much but believe in necessity and requirement given its work feasibility according to terrain and training so does maintenance ..

Polaris MRZR-4

There are places where MPV and Jeeps cannot go but ATVs with long range, These are being offered by BEML and i hope they also indigenous them by license manufacturing ..

In J&K, These can come handy ..

 

[abingdonboy]

Garuds:

 

[abingdonboy]

Garuds:

Cpl Singh (died in the line of duty during Pathankot):

 

[abingdonboy]

Garuds:

 

[Anikastha]

Must be a misprint in the article. The four regional hubs are:

Mumbai
Chennai
Hydrabad- (home to the Southern Regional Centre)
Kolkata

Gujarat/Randesan would thus be the 5th.

All hubs have specifc areas of responsibility for example the Kolkata hub also covers the NE states, Chennai also covers the A&N islands.




Manesar isn't a regional hub- it is the NSG's HQ and training centre.

All chaps at manesar will be scattered out at these 5 units?

 

[abingdonboy]

All chaps at manesar will be scattered out at these 5 units?

Yes, with the main counter terror task force remaining at Palam.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

could u please provide the video link . This is a totally different cammo of Garuds . They really do not look Indian .

Garuds:

 

[abingdonboy]

could u please provide the video link . This is a totally different cammo of Garuds . They really do not look Indian .

They are 100% Garuds:


Took the screenshots myself from this video

 

[abingdonboy]

@Lions Of Punjab



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[Panjab47]

@Lions Of Punjab
From 5min full operation

 

[tharun]

Well first, I would want the entire SAG to be equipped like the main CT task force in Delhi; not all of the operators in the hubs have this kind of gear.

As for what more they need, I would say- NVG, they have single tube NVG but the top tier SFs have been using twin tube NVGs for a while now and have even moved onto 4 tube NVGs. Other than that, they just need to be constantly spending money on keeping up to date with their counterparts in the West- there are hundreds of little things that we don't think about that the teams need to have access to and at the top tier it is all about the details, they have the basic kit (weapons, helmets, plate carriers).


+ the NSG have ballistic shields but it isn't part of their tradtional SOPs to use them.

The three units the NSG should be compared to (ie the very top end CT units in the world) are GSG-9, FBI HRT and GIGN:

I have a dream that one day i will see our army and special forces in this type of full equipment

 

[cobra commando]

Garuds:

Pittchars from getty images:

 

[abingdonboy]

I have a dream that one day i will see our army and special forces in this type of full equipment

One day, hopefully.....





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[delta]

@Lions Of Punjab



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looking at the video, i think the maneuvers were kinda shoddy. to start with, the fast rope from the helicopter took more than a minute. then the entry into the rooms took approx 40 seconds from rooftop insertion to room entry. not to mention the rappelling itself took a good few seconds. also, they blew the windows using a pre-placed charge. that won't be the case in real life. even after the charge went off, they took 2-3 seconds to enter the room, and the guy in the middle (3rd one from left) didn't use his tavor (fine, they might have just used smaller weapons for that particular situation). this was a simulated hostage situation, and with this performance, i'd say the hostage had a better chance at russian roulette with 5 bullets in the revolver.

of course, this comes from a guy who has zero experience or knowledge in special forces operations. but if i were a terrorist, i'd have shot the hostage at the sound of the helicopter. if i were a deaf terrorist, i'd have shot the hostage at the sight of the dangling ropes from the window. if i were a retarded terrorist, i'd still have plenty of time to kill my hostage when the windows blew out because the good guys were not there yet. see my point?

i'd really like someone more knowledgeable to dispel this notion of mine. i may be wrong in my assessment of the situation. please let me know how.

 

[Yodha]

I've seen the way they dropped on to the mock-up building. It was very slow IMO. The Mi-17 loitered around three minutes to get into position and to get the rope down and then the Garuds rappelled down. And using a helo of that size is not practical IMO. It generates a lot of noise when compared to helos smaller in size. We need a helo that can land on smaller buildings and structures rapidly and also possess capabilities of Med-Evac or a Cas-Evac in the scene of fight. Such as the MH-6 little bird used by 160th SOAR of U.S. The MH-6 can land on the structure, by thus eliminating the need of rappelling and saves valuable time. May be the LOH or Dhruv can be modified to reduce some weight for such missions. Using a fully operational Rudra can also be a game changer. It can carry operators as well as provide over watch to the operators and can handle enemy QRF.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[abingdonboy]

I've seen the way they dropped on the mock-up building. It was very slow. The Mi-17 loitered around three minutes to get the rope down and then the Garuds rappelled down. And using a helo of that size is not practical IMO. We need a helo that can land on smaller buildings and structures rapidly and also possess capabilities of Med-Evac or a Cas-Evac in the scene of fight. Such as the MH-6 little bird used by 160th SOAR of U.S. The MH-6 can land on the structure, by thus eliminating the need of rappelling and saves valuable time. May be the LOH or Dhruv can be modified to reduce some weight for such missions. Using a fully operational Rudra can also be a game changer. It can carry operators as well as provide over watch to the operators and can handle enemy QRF.

I agree and it's something I have observed about the Garuds for some time- their fast roping takes far too long. Compare this to the NSG, Op Black Tornado:


within 40 seconds 10 operators were on the roof.


And in 2013, the NSG did an identical drill to the Garuds in IF 2016:


Again, within 30 seconds of the hover operators were going down the rope.

During live operations I'm sure the Garuds would be less cautious and more agressive but it is still an area of concern.

The MH-6 is of limited utilty really (it can carry 3-4 passengers max), it is not the be all and end all something like it would be nice to have (and the IA/IAF sort of does with the Cheetak/Cheetah) but itsn't essential.

 

[Yodha]

I agree and it's something I have observed about the Garuds for some time- their fast roping takes far too long. Compare this to the NSG, Op Black Tornado:


within 40 seconds 10 operators were on the roof.


And in 2013, the NSG did an identical drill to the Garuds in IF 2016:


Again, within 30 seconds of the hover operators were going down the rope.

During live operations I'm sure the Garuds would be less cautious and more agressive but it is still an area of concern.

The MH-6 is of limited utilty really (it can carry 3-4 passengers max), it is not the be all and end all something like it would be nice to have (and the IA/IAF sort of does with the Cheetak/Cheetah) but itsn't essential.

May be not an MH-6, Something bigger than that to ensure maximum troop carry and their safety. Dhruv can be an excellent choice if we see it that way.

 

[Shaitan]

Tactical Insertion Garuds