Indian Special Forces (archived)

[abingdonboy]

looking at the video, i think the maneuvers were kinda shoddy. to start with, the fast rope from the helicopter took more than a minute. then the entry into the rooms took approx 40 seconds from rooftop insertion to room entry. not to mention the rappelling itself took a good few seconds. also, they blew the windows using a pre-placed charge. that won't be the case in real life. even after the charge went off, they took 2-3 seconds to enter the room, and the guy in the middle (3rd one from left) didn't use his tavor (fine, they might have just used smaller weapons for that particular situation). this was a simulated hostage situation, and with this performance, i'd say the hostage had a better chance at russian roulette with 5 bullets in the revolver.

of course, this comes from a guy who has zero experience or knowledge in special forces operations. but if i were a terrorist, i'd have shot the hostage at the sound of the helicopter. if i were a deaf terrorist, i'd have shot the hostage at the sight of the dangling ropes from the window. if i were a retarded terrorist, i'd still have plenty of time to kill my hostage when the windows blew out because the good guys were not there yet. see my point?

i'd really like someone more knowledgeable to dispel this notion of mine. i may be wrong in my assessment of the situation. please let me know how.

This was a highly glamourised demonstratio and not really representational of live operations- they made that very clear throughout the event. As such I wouldn't judge the Garuds too harshly, they were operating well below their optimal abilty and merely providing some entertainment for the audience.

 

[Bahamut]

looking at the video, i think the maneuvers were kinda shoddy. to start with, the fast rope from the helicopter took more than a minute. then the entry into the rooms took approx 40 seconds from rooftop insertion to room entry. not to mention the rappelling itself took a good few seconds. also, they blew the windows using a pre-placed charge. that won't be the case in real life. even after the charge went off, they took 2-3 seconds to enter the room, and the guy in the middle (3rd one from left) didn't use his tavor (fine, they might have just used smaller weapons for that particular situation). this was a simulated hostage situation, and with this performance, i'd say the hostage had a better chance at russian roulette with 5 bullets in the revolver.

of course, this comes from a guy who has zero experience or knowledge in special forces operations. but if i were a terrorist, i'd have shot the hostage at the sound of the helicopter. if i were a deaf terrorist, i'd have shot the hostage at the sight of the dangling ropes from the window. if i were a retarded terrorist, i'd still have plenty of time to kill my hostage when the windows blew out because the good guys were not there yet. see my point?

i'd really like someone more knowledgeable to dispel this notion of mine. i may be wrong in my assessment of the situation. please let me know how.

They are distraction during this time and when rappeling is used the terrorist have forced to hold their position for more then 24 hr and this decrease their judgmental skill, the 40 sec here be like 4 sec ,it was very quick and there will be no time for reaction.

 

[abingdonboy]

May be not an MH-6, Something bigger than that to ensure maximum troop carry and their safety. Dhruv can be an excellent choice if we see it that way.

Yes, the Dhruv would be more suited too IMO, the right mix between load carrying and small size.

This is why India needs a SOCOM with dedicated (and customised) air assets so as to perfectly refine their procedures.

 

[Bahamut]

I agree and it's something I have observed about the Garuds for some time- their fast roping takes far too long. Compare this to the NSG, Op Black Tornado:


within 40 seconds 10 operators were on the roof.


And in 2013, the NSG did an identical drill to the Garuds in IF 2016:


Again, within 30 seconds of the hover operators were going down the rope.

During live operations I'm sure the Garuds would be less cautious and more agressive but it is still an area of concern.

The MH-6 is of limited utilty really (it can carry 3-4 passengers max), it is not the be all and end all something like it would be nice to have (and the IA/IAF sort of does with the Cheetak/Cheetah) but itsn't essential.

Mi 17V5 are used as there are more stable and carry more people as most of the time you need about 20 operative to hold building plus some time they might also carry snipers as they a lower vibration.As for rappeling there are many techniques like single rope ,double rope and triple rope and as used according to the situation and 40 sec is a good time , yes it can be reduced by having multiple rappeling points but there is difficult in controlling the control the landing spot and if its a small roof the a single rappeling point is better.

 

[Yodha]

Mi 17V5 are used as there are more stable and carry more people as most of the time you need about 20 operative to hold building plus some time they might also carry snipers as they a lower vibration.As for rappeling there are many techniques like single rope ,double rope and triple rope and as used according to the situation and 40 sec is a good time , yes it can be reduced by having multiple rappeling points but there is difficult in controlling the control the landing spot and if its a small roof the a single rappeling point is better.

That's why we need smaller helos. And I think we do not have dedicated scout snipers, who are qualified to take out baddies from a chopper loitering at such heights. And also the bigger the helo is, the chances are more for it to be targeted. I think that, the 20 member team needs to be separated into 2x10 teams. No way that 20 guys can enter the building without having some operators outside to establish a perimeter.

 

[Bahamut]

Yes, the Dhruv would be more suited too IMO, the right mix between load carrying and small size.

This is why India needs a SOCOM with dedicated (and customised) air assets so as to perfectly refine their procedures.

NSG chose Mi 17 V5 as their primary and they are modifying it like 3 point rappelling but it is a slow process.

 

[Bahamut]

That's why we need smaller helos. And I think we do not have dedicated scout snipers, who are qualified to take out baddies from a chopper loitering at such heights. And also the bigger the helo is, the chances are more for it to be targeted. I think that, the 20 member team needs to be separated into 2x10 teams. No way that 20 guys can enter the building without having some operators outside to establish a perimeter.

A rappeling op start like this, for 24 hr the NSG tries to exhaust them like cutting off the electricity and repeated heli flight .Sniper pick their spot and then the pilot along with some team members look for different approach method and try them and when finalized ,during the final flight stun grenades are used along with some explosion to create distraction and make the miss the helicopter. One 4 member team take stairs and 3 other team cover the other 3 faces by breaking the window.Another team acts as backup.In total 20 members and when NSG tried dividing it like 2x10 then it took more time and complicated the operation .Smaller chopper like Cheetah are used to provide sniper but NSG prefers V5 as they are more stable and they get better shots.

 

[Yodha]

A rappeling op start like this, for 24 hr the NSG tries to exhaust them like cutting off the electricity and repeated heli flight .Sniper pick their spot and then the pilot along with some team members look for different approach method and try them and when finalized ,during the final flight stun grenades are used along with some explosion to create distraction and make the miss the helicopter. One 4 member team take stairs and 3 other team cover the other 3 faces by breaking the window.Another team acts as backup.In total 20 members and when NSG tried dividing it like 2x10 then it took more time and complicated the operation .Smaller chopper like Cheetah are used to provide sniper but NSG prefers V5 as they are more stable and they get better shots.

Sounds interesting. It's fine until the operators feel comfortable and have tactical advantage through which the Op can be successfully completed.

Edit: I've seen multiple videos of our operators doing room interventions, but I've never seen an operator sliding a flash bang or concussion grenade till now. Do we use such things?

 

[Bahamut]

Sounds interesting. It's fine until the operators feel comfortable and have tactical advantage through which the Op can be successfully completed.

Edit: I've seen multiple videos of our operators doing room interventions, but I've never seen an operator sliding a flash bang or concussion grenade till now. Do we use such things?

Only if there is a hostage situation flash grenades are used other wise it enter and spray or use a lethal grenade.

 

[delta]

A rappeling op start like this, for 24 hr the NSG tries to exhaust them like cutting off the electricity and repeated heli flight .Sniper pick their spot and then the pilot along with some team members look for different approach method and try them and when finalized ,during the final flight stun grenades are used along with some explosion to create distraction and make the miss the helicopter. One 4 member team take stairs and 3 other team cover the other 3 faces by breaking the window.Another team acts as backup.In total 20 members and when NSG tried dividing it like 2x10 then it took more time and complicated the operation .Smaller chopper like Cheetah are used to provide sniper but NSG prefers V5 as they are more stable and they get better shots.

that's a good analysis, but in a hostage situation, i don't think they'd wait that long.

 

[Bahamut]

that's a good analysis, but in a hostage situation, i don't think they'd wait that long.

They do as longer the wait ,more tiered the terrorist become and that means slower reaction and less judgmental skill .Simple art of war,fight the enemy when he is the weakest.

 

[Bahamut]

@Kunal Biswas I found cool motorcycle for covert operation .Check it

 

[abingdonboy]

NSG chose Mi 17 V5 as their primary and they are modifying it like 3 point rappelling but it is a slow process.

Is this confirmed? It would be good news if true but the most I've seen so far is 1 point for the NSG on the Mi-17s. Interestingly the Garuds are the force I have seen who have used 2 ropes with the Mi-17s:

 

[Bornubus]

.................................................

 

[abingdonboy]

Edit: I've seen multiple videos of our operators doing room interventions, but I've never seen an operator sliding a flash bang or concussion grenade till now. Do we use such things?

Realy? There are plenty of videos of this out there, all SFs in India use them.

NSG in 2013:
4.12-



NSG in 2015:
1.41-

 

[su35]

A rappelling op start like this, for 24 hr the NSG tries to exhaust them like cutting off the electricity and repeated heli flight .Sniper pick their spot and then the pilot along with some team members look for different approach method and try them and when finalized ,during the final flight stun grenades are used along with some explosion to create distraction and make the miss the helicopter. One 4 member team take stairs and 3 other team cover the other 3 faces by breaking the window.Another team acts as backup.In total 20 members and when NSG tried dividing it like 2x10 then it took more time and complicated the operation .Smaller chopper like Cheetah are used to provide sniper but NSG prefers V5 as they are more stable and they get better shots.

Excellent Analysis but now days terrorist are trained to survive for 3 to 4 days in that case will this strategy works. Can't we just use poison gas to drive them mad or choke them(not in hostage situation)

 

[Bahamut]

Excellent Analysis but now days terrorist are trained to survive for 3 to 4 days in that case will this strategy works. Can't we just use poison gas to drive them mad or choke them(not in hostage situation)

The main game is sleep deprivation ,do not let him rest or regroup and misinform him,keep him busy .

 

[Immanuel]

Watch from 2 mins onwards, they are very fast in helo insertion ops. While flying close to buildings in urban areas, the helo first needs to be stable, there is risk of heavy down wash and if the hover is instable, they can't give a go for fast roping. Its clear during Iron Fist, the helo wasn't stable enough in hover for quick insertion.

A similar miscalculation of ground affect of heavy down wash close to buildings in urban area resulted in instability of the stealth chopper during OBL raid and it crashed.

 

[Bornubus]

AN PEQ 2 on Tavor and Shaheed Capt. Pawan Kumar with Para SF operatives

 

[abingdonboy]

Capt Pawan Kumar in life and his last rites :