Indian Special Forces (archived)

[indiandefencefan]

Which gun is this?

.................................................

Looks like Micro-Uzi ......................................

 

[boris]

Take this info about Vikas being indiscipline with a pinch of salt. They have different operational duties. Tier-1 forces often give the impression of being undisciplined but that's because they are cold ass calculated killers often required to work in pairs or just alone. They are meant for black-ops deep behind enemy lines and not necessarily during war.

Exactly, you see guys from Delta or ST6 , they look more like Australian surfers or bikers than highly trained killers. They have a simple philosophy - train hard, be great at your job and show 100% dedication towards it , if you do all that then they don't mind if you come to fight wearing a mickey mouse cap.

 

[boris]

@ALBY @abingdonboy @ghost @boris @Immanuel and others...

Had drinks with an old college friend last night. Met him after 5 years. He is serving in EME and just finished his field tour in Laddakh of 2 and half years (got extended due to some difficulties). Spent a total of 6 months at 14,000 ft. Few interesting tidbits I gathered from him.

• He recently attempted for PTS in Agra and got injured in the selection process. According to him, clearing for Para airbourne is more difficult than clearing for Para SF, owing to the lack of numbers in the former and easier written examinations in case of latter.

• He also met a Vikas unit there and was friends with some of them. According to him, they are highly trained but at the same time very indisciplined force. He thinks the structure of the unit i.e. high levels of anonymity and individuality and also political nature of the unit is responsible for this kind of behavior. But those guys are tough as rocks and huge mountains ain't got nothing on them.

• He too ranks Para SF above Vikas only because of the inherent discipline of the Indian army.

• His INSAS 1B1(?) is serving him well and he had nothing more to add.

• Something I didn't know but apparently that Laddakh scouts are rotated and have been rotating for quite some time which is contrary to what desi uselss media has been saying.

Gathered a few more things but I rather not say those on a public forum. None of them are classified but it does not paint a rosy picture of the current status of Indian army.

I think he might be hinting at the lower number of airborne battalions though rest assured the selection procedure is harder for the SF units.

As far as the last point goes , if it isn't classified then there shouldn't be an issue in posting it, it is good to debate on such things on a defence forum we are not in pakiland after all.

 

[ghost]

@ALBY @abingdonboy @ghost @boris @Immanuel and others...

Had drinks with an old college friend last night. Met him after 5 years. He is serving in EME and just finished his field tour in Laddakh of 2 and half years (got extended due to some difficulties). Spent a total of 6 months at 14,000 ft. Few interesting tidbits I gathered from him.

• He recently attempted for PTS in Agra and got injured in the selection process. According to him, clearing for Para airbourne is more difficult than clearing for Para SF, owing to the lack of numbers in the former and easier written examinations in case of latter.

• He also met a Vikas unit there and was friends with some of them. According to him, they are highly trained but at the same time very indisciplined force. He thinks the structure of the unit i.e. high levels of anonymity and individuality and also political nature of the unit is responsible for this kind of behavior. But those guys are tough as rocks and huge mountains ain't got nothing on them.

• He too ranks Para SF above Vikas only because of the inherent discipline of the Indian army.

• His INSAS 1B1(?) is serving him well and he had nothing more to add.

• Something I didn't know but apparently that Laddakh scouts are rotated and have been rotating for quite some time which is contrary to what desi uselss media has been saying.

Gathered a few more things but I rather not say those on a public forum. None of them are classified but it does not paint a rosy picture of the current status of Indian army.

Sir,

Please ask you friend about modernisation being carried out of basic gear,have they received something new or are they expecting something new in near future regarding their basic gear?Please feel free to disclose everything unless they are classified.

Regarding vikas I can't say whether they are at par or above Para but Special group sure is.

As per this person https://www.quora.com/Noam-Kaiser Noam Kaiser, Major (Res.) IDF Armored Corps, Served 20 years, 15 of them as Reserves officer

"It also includes India's finest special forces unit: MARCOS which I mentioned here: What are the world's most elite fighting forces?
MARCOS are world renowned for their capabilities and like the 2 other special forces (Ground forces Para commandos, and Air force Garud Commandos)train extensively with other units from around the world.
Without elaborating too much, MARCOS are highly appreciated by the Israelis that need to know."

based on his talks with others in IDF who have worked with indian forces.

I have always considered Marcos above para sf glad that Israelis also do.


@ALBY I think TAR 21,SCAR L and H along with p90 will make the ideal combination of firearm for any special forces.Regarding general infantry everything is messed up in Indian army procurement.



Para sf

Iaf garud

Marcos

nsg

 

[ghost]

Which gun is this?

.................................................

9mm micro uzihttp://www.israel-weapon.com/?catid={F8CD99D8-62FC-49E1-BF84-6F9DB7C31147}

 

[blueblood]

@Immanuel, Vikas as a whole cannot be considered as Tier 1 according to US definition. There is only one Tier 1 unit and that is SG. I have pointed out that (also acc to the friend) that the political nature of the unit encourages indiscipline. Keep in mind, this is still a "not Indian" unit if you know what I mean.

@ghost, please, no "sir" necessary.

He is an EME fella so he don't have an eye for upgrades like we do. My friend is back to his posting so I can't talk to him anymore. But he'll be back in a couple of months, so I'll inform to you all to prepare a questionnaire.

As for the last point, it has nothing to do with Indian SF but some work ethics of some army units precisely the reason why I shying away from posting such things but all in good time and with more in-depth information I assure you.

Though I should take the word of a Israeli veteran but IMO there is no shortcut for experience and this is where PARAs trumps almost every single unit in the world with a handful of exceptions. Training however is a completely different thing.

Pound for pound, MARCOS should be better trained, better equipped and should have a larger budget at its disposal. But PARAs are more versatile and that is not going to change any time soon.

As for Vikas, their mandate is different than that of PARA so while a comparison exists, it is definitely not fair one. It has less to do with training but more to do physiology of the men that makes up the unit. A highly trained operator who was born with an inherent resistance to high altitude sicknesses and cold climate is something money can't buy.

 

[boris]

I actually know Noam and have interacted with him, glad to see he considers MARCOS at a high level but still ask the American SF vets they rate the Para(SF) highly. The Para(SF) is very versatile, the MARCOS can't operate in the desert at the same level like 10 Para(SF) can and the same goes for high altitude, the top instructor at HAWS are all Para(SF). Even in CQB , the Para(SF) has seriously upped its game after 26/11 and the US SF joint exercises. They are also seriously working on their amphib capability.

Ask guys in the Para(SF) and they only rate the MARCOS highly in amphibious ops and jungle ops probably their exercises with the Shayetet 13 is where Noam might be getting his info but in whatever metric Para(SF) is ahead of the MARCOS.

 

[boris]

and also Vikas and SG are different entities, Vikas battalions are the traditional SFF battalions whereas SG is the cutting edge, there are many Vikas batts. but only one SG batt. exists.

 

[salute]

are these russian soldiers ??? that camo is same as russian soldiers use,
and one soldier with indian army camo is also there,
is this pic from some training exercise ???

 

[Neil]

are these russian soldiers ??? that camo is same as russian soldiers use,
and one soldier with indian army camo is also there,
is this pic from some training exercise ???

good eyes mate. Yes they are Russians.
The pic is from Indra ex...and mostly held in India since for joint ex in other country...the norm is host country to issue equipment for regular IA infantry i.e.

 

[ghost]

NSG

Para

 

[ghost]

NSG

Nsg armoury

SFF

One more photo of Special Group(SFF),once again a Tibetan.

Same person above member of Special group(SFF).

 

[Ankit Purohit]

Men in Uniform ,yaro ke yaar thanks Ghost for posting .

 

[indiandefencefan]

NSG

No optics foe the sig ???????
...............................................

 

[ghost]

@Immanuel, Vikas as a whole cannot be considered as Tier 1 according to US definition. There is only one Tier 1 unit and that is SG. I have pointed out that (also acc to the friend) that the political nature of the unit encourages indiscipline. Keep in mind, this is still a "not Indian" unit if you know what I mean.

@ghost, please, no "sir" necessary.

He is an EME fella so he don't have an eye for upgrades like we do. My friend is back to his posting so I can't talk to him anymore. But he'll be back in a couple of months, so I'll inform to you all to prepare a questionnaire.

As for the last point, it has nothing to do with Indian SF but some work ethics of some army units precisely the reason why I shying away from posting such things but all in good time and with more in-depth information I assure you.

Though I should take the word of a Israeli veteran but IMO there is no shortcut for experience and this is where PARAs trumps almost every single unit in the world with a handful of exceptions. Training however is a completely different thing.

Pound for pound, MARCOS should be better trained, better equipped and should have a larger budget at its disposal. But PARAs are more versatile and that is not going to change any time soon.

As for Vikas, their mandate is different than that of PARA so while a comparison exists, it is definitely not fair one. It has less to do with training but more to do physiology of the men that makes up the unit. A highly trained operator who was born with an inherent resistance to high altitude sicknesses and cold climate is something money can't buy.

I don't buy your versatile argument,Marcos are equally versatile in all sphere ,like every other tier one special forces around the world.Para sf might be more experienced in high altitude and desert but then same could be said about Marcos in amphibious operations.To tell you the truth , only reason why I rate Marcos so high is because:

I have heard that till date Marcos do not have any KIA .Considering the number of operation they have undertook in various spheres since they came into being ,I think it speak very highly of them.

This does not mean that Para SF are any less but I am still inclined towards Marcos.


@indiandefencefan Sir,

Sights and optics are only mounted while carrying out operation or during live training exercise. Since they are at their base in these photos the optics are removed and stored, to be mounted on rifles as and when required.

 

[blueblood]

@ghost I am not arguing that Marcos are not versatile. Read my earlier posts and you'll find out the edge I mentioned Marcos have over PARA but versatility is not one of them.

We have IMO very little evidence of Marcos doing HALO/HAHO over high altitude like Ladakh. Same goes for a stint in Siachen or exercises in desert terrain.

As for KIA, yes it is an excellent proof of Marcos capabilities and professionalism. But at the same time, PARA conducts practically every single special ops barring a few.

90% of the spec ops in Afghanistan were conducted by Green berets but Navy SEALs are the heroes of Afghanistan. See what I am pointing out. SEALs are better trained and better funded but Green Berets bore the brunt of war 90% of the time. Same goes for the rangers.

 

[boris]

MARCOS has had KIA's in Kashmir. There is only one force in the world that has had no KIA's till now and that is the Polish GROM.

Para(SF) has higher KIA's because they do the lion's share of the ops in Kashmir and the North-East.

 

[indiandefencefan]

I have heard that till date Marcos do not have any KIA .Considering the number of operation they have undertook in various spheres since they came into being ,I think it speak very highly of them.

@ghost I will argue with you in this matter as the Para SF undertake the majority of COIN operations which invariably increases the chances for casualties.
Also MARCOS being very secretive force may not release casualty reports to the public and may only inform the deceased soldier's next of kin.

@indiandefencefan Sir,
Sights and optics are only mounted while carrying out operation or during live training exercise. Since they are at their base in these photos the optics are removed and stored, to be mounted on rifles as and when required.

Thanks for the info.

 

[ghost]

MARCOS has had KIA's in Kashmir. There is only one force in the world that has had no KIA's till now and that is the Polish GROM.

Para(SF) has higher KIA's because they do the lion's share of the ops in Kashmir and the North-East.

Sorry,I was not aware of that.They do seem to have a KIA in late 2009 when their base at wullar was attacked by militants.Are you aware of more?if yes, then how many?

The reason behind Para SF doing the lion share is because COIN operations mostly fall under the command of army ,who use their own boys .

 

[cobra commando]

Sorry,I was not aware of that.They do seem to have a KIA in late 2009 when their base at wullar was attacked by militants.Are you aware of more?if yes, then how many?

The reason behind Para SF doing the lion share is because COIN operations mostly fall under the command of army ,who use their own boys .

Captain Krzysztof Woźniak was killed during an “anti-terrorist action” Ghazni province in Afghanistan. Jan, 2013.

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/124998,Polish-special-forces-officer-killed-in-Afghanistan