Indian Special Forces (archived)

[ghost]

 

[chase]

^^ To be honest, those photos are cheap and shows the bad PR of indian armed forces.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@chase, It depends how one sees it ..

 

[ALBY]

 

[ALBY]

 

[ALBY]

10th PARA SF in 1971 war.

 

[Twinblade]

Whither Special Forces?
By Lt Gen Prakash KatochIssue Net Edition | Date : 28 Jan , 2014

While discussing a monogram on Special Forces at a prominent Think Tank in New Delhi last month (December 2013), one of the discussants (a former Brigadier) opined that the "entire Parachute Regiment should form part of the proposed Special Forces Command." It is not the stupidity and absurdity of the proposal alone but the dogged pusillanimous pursuit with which this idea of converting all Parachute Battalions to Special Forces has been followed over the years – stymieing the Special Forces; pulling them down any which way so that the Parachute Battalions can wear the Special Forces badge and more importantly, get the Special Forces allowance in the process. That this Brigadier was a former paratrooper requires no guesses. But it so happened, that he was a last minute substitute to the two-star officer in Military Operations Directorate of the Army. The latter's name had already been mentioned in the program for the said event circulated to all concerned by the Think Tank. Why the two-star ducked was obviously to avoid uncomfortable questions since he has not served for a single day in a Special Forces unit and was probably advised to stay away by the Director General of Military Operations who happens to be Colonel of the Parachute Regiment and has never served with Special Forces either. So the Brigadier was commandeered all the way from Kolkata to do their bidding.

Read More:-
Whither Special Forces? » Indian Defence Review

About the Author
Lt Gen Prakash Katoch
Prakash Katoch is a former Lt Gen Special Forces, Indian Army

 

[Immanuel]

I think each force with-in the country needs a serious change. I might wrong or naive in my thinking but if some of the gurus here can think of the concepts i propose and find faults in this. I propose everyforce whether police, paramilitary or army should have 3 levels of organization/roles/specializations. I also think each force should largely stick to its goals, the army should focus on targeting the enemy's army while the navy and AF do the same, focus on their mandate.

Let's imagine a Parachute Regiment with a strength of 40 battalions at 800 men per battalion i.e 32,000 men, now we mandate 20% of the force 6400 or 8 battalions as Para QRF i.e a quick reaction force, extremely well trained commandos to allow the army a rapid response, to hit out at key tactical targets well behind enemy lines, these will the army's own commando units, they'll go after army bases, tank yards, key nodes of comms, raids on key enemy defences . Further we mandate 10% of the force 3200 or 5 battalions as Para-SF elite i.e Para-Rangers with the main task of going after strategic targets well beyond enemy lines, these Para-Rangers would also be part of the Unified Special Operations Command and would go after the enemy's army missile launchers such a Nasr, babur and other important targets.

I also think a similar structure would help the Navy with its amphibious plans, a similar force of 24,000 part of a Naval Infantry Regiment (the main force not trained for airborne ops) could have a 4800 QRF specialized marines trained in heliborne ops/raids etc, whose main task would be to undertake tactical missions to hit out at enemy defences, capture enemy installations, nodes of communications, perform pilot/crew rescues when needed etc while 2400 elite Marcos (para-trained) could be part of the Unified Special Operations Command and focus more on going after startegic tagrets such boomer installtions, destruction of key naval targets, sabotage etc.

I think the IAF should also have it's own Infantry regiment i.e Air Force Infantry, a similar force of around 24,000 as well ( general force not airborne) with main task of going after enemy's air bases (AF shouldn't have to rely on army to go after airfield/bases etc) with 4800 QRF (airborne) units with the main task of being the spearhead of attacks of enemy air bases / taking out base defences/ lasing targets to destroy key targets on forward air bases, taking out a base's radar/EW systems etc, perform pilot rescue etc. while an elite 2400 Garud force part of the Unified Special Operations command can focus on going after enemy's air deployed nukes and other WMDs, enemy AF's nuke storage sites, destroying key delivery platforms such a bombers etc.

The SFF i.e Special Frontier Force (airborne) should be force with a strength of around 5 battalions i.e 4000 can be part of the Unified Special Operations command working closely with RAW with the main task of going after battle field intel, enemy's war infrastucture such as large ammo dumps, tank/vehicle factories, ordanance factories etc. 2 battalions i.e 1600 Special Services Bureau should be tasked with taking out key human targets (generals, politicians, leaders, brigadiers, admirals etc) 2 battallions/1600 of Special Executive Force should be dedicated to Strategic battle field Recon i.e finding key strategic storage/launch sights, launching & assisting direct raids on enemy's strategic sights.

That way we speak of (6400+4800+4800) 16000 i.e 20 QRF or special mission battalions spread across IAF/IN and IA and (3200+2400+2400) i.e 8000/ 10 battalions elite SF under USOC + 4000/ 5 battalions SFF + 2 Battalions 1600 SSB + 2 battalions 1600 SEF ie a total 15200 Elite SF

 

[Immanuel]

Obviously training modules would be different for all 3 levels within each force and each force IN/AF/IA should have their own MTA/C-130Js/ Chinooks/ Shinmaya US-2s/Mi-17s/dhruvs to facilitate ops. USOC would need its own C-130Js/C-17s and other assets to get around.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

^^ To be honest, those photos are cheap and shows the bad PR of indian armed forces.

Equipment does not matter when the soldier is a master in his own way. That is enough for getting the job done. The only thing which matters is night vision and bleeding because of bullet injuries. We have to do something this.

What did the so called most advanced American army achieve with their so called ultra modern soldier equipment and bullet proof jackets, in the 10 years of war in Afghanistan? They lost peace of mind and also lost many lives, which according to the modern soldier is quite a huge loss of lives.

On the other hand if we see what India achieved in 60 years of war with pack stan, it is evident that we get our work done with a marginal loss of lives when compared with the modern equipment of Americans.

India achieved the goal in 10 days what the Americans and the N.A.T.O. together were not able to achieve in 10 years, during the 1971 war and brought the better equipped Pakistani army and made 93000+ soldiers to surrender.

This shows that equipment does not matter when the soldier is a master of his execution of tasks and possesses the skill and valour to save his motherland.

 

[ALBY]

Thunderbolts Commandos of Kerala

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The lack of understanding and clarity so does studies are some major obstacle in Indian SF groups ..

Obviously training modules would be different for all 3 levels within each force and each force IN/AF/IA should have their own MTA/C-130Js/ Chinooks/ Shinmaya US-2s/Mi-17s/dhruvs to facilitate ops. USOC would need its own C-130Js/C-17s and other assets to get around.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The lack of understanding and clarity so does studies are some major obstacle in Indian SF groups ..

Obviously training modules would be different for all 3 levels within each force and each force IN/AF/IA should have their own MTA/C-130Js/ Chinooks/ Shinmaya US-2s/Mi-17s/dhruvs to facilitate ops. USOC would need its own C-130Js/C-17s and other assets to get around.

 

[Ankit Purohit]

Guys find col ss shekhawat

 

[ALBY]

The lack of understanding and clarity so does studies are some major obstacle in Indian SF groups ..

The Indian SF are not much developed as compared to the western SF in terms of the training or equipment.And there is not much scientific study done into the improvemnt of capabilities of SF as compared to western counterparts.This was said to me by a former colonel in army who had served in 51 SAG.
To validate his points he said that back in his days they were send to train with GSG9 in germany.To the amusement of our guys the obstacle clearance training is carriedd in a small auditorium with lots of obstacles where as in india it is done in a vast out door area.
But he said that the very next day after doing the obstacle clearance the pain of muscle parts was so unbearable that they could feel each and every muscle in their body.
And compared with the obstacle course done in germany the one in india was nothing.
Also in indian SF back then each member in a squad was specialised in someething but none were cross trained.But thee GSG9 guys werre specialised in all skills.For eg:in a typical indian SF squad one will be specialised in sniping,other comm expert,other demolition man and one man will be driver.But the GSG9 guys were speciaised in all aspects .He said only now the situation is slowly changing.
He said that of all the SF units in INDIA MARCOS is the best consiidering their skills.

 

[Immanuel]

I think, the changes in training and equipment is there, training these days is pretty good if not better than most SF units around the world, its the way they are employed and organized that needs a massive overhaul. Marcos/ Garud training courses are extensive and use modern methods. I think this comparison to GSG9 is needless, they are plenty of forces in the country that can outperform most units around the world and none can compare when it comes to sheer field craft, multi terrain adaptability and deployablility. NSG is slowly being transformed as well.

Important thing is create clear mandates, roles and consolidate and split when needed. I don't understand for instance why we need BSF, ITBP, SSB all doing border protection, why not have one force such BSF consolidating all border guarding forces into 1 large force. I think combining the above forces will result in a BSF os around 320,000 soldiers i.e with 400 battalions @ 800 men each. Now based on such a force size, we can mandate 10% or 32,000/40 battalions for highly mobile QRT/QRF roles i.e first responders to border incursions, direct action against incoming forces, using terrain advantage to stop the enemy dead in the tracks. They would be basic commando trained with extensive training in defencive maneuvers. While another 2% i.e 6400 or 8 battalions as BSF crocodile commandos, whose main role would be to effectively sabotage, mine, ambush key frontline targets being used to hit at our border defences. I think with such a large force, it should be easy to find solid men for the various roles. Training schools can be further be consolidated for various skill sets including desert warfare, mountain warfare, high alt warfare, jungle warfare, guerilla warfare. With such modules we can have plenty of focus capability.

I think with proper organization each force can be made capable of responding quickly with effective counter action using QRFs while they mobilize the rest and using their Specialists create havoc within the enemy's order of battle.

The same can be done for CISF (Regular, QRF, Black Panther Commandos), CRPF (Regular, QRF, COBRA) etc.

 

[ghost]

The Indian SF are not much developed as compared to the western SF in terms of the training or equipment.And there is not much scientific study done into the improvemnt of capabilities of SF as compared to western counterparts.This was said to me by a former colonel in army who had served in 51 SAG.
To validate his points he said that back in his days they were send to train with GSG9 in germany.To the amusement of our guys the obstacle clearance training is carriedd in a small auditorium with lots of obstacles where as in india it is done in a vast out door area.
But he said that the very next day after doing the obstacle clearance the pain of muscle parts was so unbearable that they could feel each and every muscle in their body.
And compared with the obstacle course done in germany the one in india was nothing.
Also in indian SF back then each member in a squad was specialised in someething but none were cross trained.But thee GSG9 guys werre specialised in all skills.For eg:in a typical indian SF squad one will be specialised in sniping,other comm expert,other demolition man and one man will be driver.But the GSG9 guys were speciaised in all aspects .He said only now the situation is slowly changing.
He said that of all the SF units in INDIA MARCOS is the best consiidering their skills.

I totally agree with you further i would like to add that when it comes to dedication our men are not less then any others but training modules and equipment do matter a lot and it differentiate the best from the rest.

I was watching a program called ultimate soldier challenge where it was a competition between Norwegian special forces ,Spetnaaz and green berrets in different scenario and modules where as Spetnaaz and green Berets it was a very close call between them the Norwegian with due respect got their ass handed over to them they were completely owned.

It was as if watching two expert compete with children where spetnaz and green beret were talking time of 20 and 25 seconds to do a particular task the norwegian would take 1:50 minute for same this shows why these forces have superstar status when it comes to special forces. I think we should stop being rhetorical and try to learn all the good things such forces have to offer they have build a reputation all around the word and there is a solid reason behind it not just PR.

 

[ghost]

I think, the changes in training and equipment is there, training these days is pretty good if not better than most SF units around the world, its the way they are employed and organized that needs a massive overhaul. Marcos/ Garud training courses are extensive and use modern methods. I think this comparison to GSG9 is needless, they are plenty of forces in the country that can outperform most units around the world and none can compare when it comes to sheer field craft, multi terrain adaptability and deployablility. NSG is slowly being transformed as well.

Important thing is create clear mandates, roles and consolidate and split when needed. I don't understand for instance why we need BSF, ITBP, SSB all doing border protection, why not have one force such BSF consolidating all border guarding forces into 1 large force. I think combining the above forces will result in a BSF os around 320,000 soldiers i.e with 400 battalions @ 800 men each. Now based on such a force size, we can mandate 10% or 32,000/40 battalions for highly mobile QRT/QRF roles i.e first responders to border incursions, direct action against incoming forces, using terrain advantage to stop the enemy dead in the tracks. They would be basic commando trained with extensive training in defencive maneuvers. While another 2% i.e 6400 or 8 battalions as BSF crocodile commandos, whose main role would be to effectively sabotage, mine, ambush key frontline targets being used to hit at our border defences. I think with such a large force, it should be easy to find solid men for the various roles. Training schools can be further be consolidated for various skill sets including desert warfare, mountain warfare, high alt warfare, jungle warfare, guerilla warfare. With such modules we can have plenty of focus capability.

I think with proper organization each force can be made capable of responding quickly with effective counter action using QRFs while they mobilize the rest and using their Specialists create havoc within the enemy's order of battle.

The same can be done for CISF (Regular, QRF, Black Panther Commandos), CRPF (Regular, QRF, COBRA) etc.

I think the main problem with indian forces is that we tend to go for quantity rather than quality.

 

[chase]

Equipment does not matter when the soldier is a master in his own way. That is enough for getting the job done. The only thing which matters is night vision and bleeding because of bullet injuries. We have to do something this.

What did the so called most advanced American army achieve with their so called ultra modern soldier equipment and bullet proof jackets, in the 10 years of war in Afghanistan? They lost peace of mind and also lost many lives, which according to the modern soldier is quite a huge loss of lives.

On the other hand if we see what India achieved in 60 years of war with pack stan, it is evident that we get our work done with a marginal loss of lives when compared with the modern equipment of Americans.

India achieved the goal in 10 days what the Americans and the N.A.T.O. together were not able to achieve in 10 years, during the 1971 war and brought the better equipped Pakistani army and made 93000+ soldiers to surrender.

This shows that equipment does not matter when the soldier is a master of his execution of tasks and possesses the skill and valour to save his motherland.

Sir, India is not going to fight the talibans. India will fight the cheenies and paktards. Especially the cheens have made tremendous advanced in equipping their soldiers while Indian soldiers dont even have ballistic helmets and a bullet proof jacket. In a war, the chinese are going to have an advantage over us.
As far as US of A is concerned,well sir your analysis is very partial. US has been able to achieve complete domination over Afghanistan in a few days and that also with extremely low casualties. It's another thing that they are not able to manage Afghanistan, that the politics problem not the problem with US military.

 

[ALBY]

I think the main problem with indian forces is that we tend to go for quantity rather than quality.

Truely said bro.We have lot of units with SF badges but doesn't know whether they are up to the mark except MARCOS.Even US has less number of SF guys than us.I am not meaning any disrespect to the guys in uniform.But there are some aspects which made me think.
Eg:5,6,& 7 PARA are given SF airborne status.But they are just para qualified infantry men with some additional skills like 81st airborne or VDV.But those units does not come under the category of Tier 1 SF.Even 75th US Ranger guys are considered as tier II SF.
Its already allegation that the SFairborne tag had been given to provide them with the same perks and allowance of rest of the SF guys.
Plus there are already 8 PARA SF battalions and 2 are under raising. Instead of raising new SF why not create a super specialised force out of all the elite units in india like US SOG?
Coz by converting all PARA into SF are reducing ordinary PARA battalions which is a must for any army .Also it is hard to believe that such a mammoth SF could posses the capabilities of a true SF.