Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Gandaberunda]

You can achieve the same by constructing underground missile silos within the Himalayan ranges.

Who said we aren’t doing? We have covered all the options of deterrence and SSBNs are for flexing the muscles in the ocean. The real need is of attack submarines SSNs in numbers to bully neighbours in our backyard and project power beyond Indian Ocean which we are heavily lacking and dragging our feet for 20+ years now

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Who said we aren’t doing? We have covered all the options of deterrence and SSBNs are for flexing the muscles in the ocean. The real need is of attack submarines SSNs in numbers to bully neighbours in our backyard and project power beyond Indian Ocean which we are heavily lacking and dragging our feet for 20+ years now

yeah we be draging p75i and p75a for years now from the signing it would take at least 10 years to complete the order too and our kilo and type 209 are old too

 

[Gandaberunda]

yeah we be draging p75i and p75a for years now from the signing it would take at least 10 years to complete the order too and our kilo and type 209 are old too

We are literally handicapped in terms of submarine warfare. kalvari SSK are just puny subs with 3000 ton displacement used for patrol. We need SSN with AIP and for the coastal length we have and also stature of Indian navy it’s a shame we don’t have any in numbers. Navy is busy in getting nuclear carrier or repeat of Vikrant IAC2

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

We are literally handicapped in terms of submarine warfare. kalvari SSK are just puny subs with 3000 ton displacement used for patrol. We need SSN with AIP and for the coastal length we have and also stature of Indian navy it’s a shame we don’t have any in numbers. Navy is busy in getting nuclear carrier or repeat of Vikrant IAC2

yeah while the surface level anti sub fleet is growing too good the submarine fleet is depleting
we have the asw shallow water craft ,p8i,later the mq9b sea guardian ,smart , etc which make a considerable anti sub fleet but having just 24 subs in 2030 makes no sense to me carrier can be shifted a couple of years but invest in subs too man

 

[Blood+]

yeah while the surface level anti sub fleet is growing too good the submarine fleet is depleting
we have the asw shallow water craft ,p8i,later the mq9b sea guardian ,smart , etc which make a considerable anti sub fleet but having just 24 subs in 2030 makes no sense to me carrier can be shifted a couple of years but invest in subs too man

Yeah, the maximum permissible fleet strength needs to be revised and increased by at least 50% if not more and this goes for both the surface and the submarine fleets. The same goes for Army's MLRS regiments and the squadron strength of the Air Force.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Yeah, the maximum permissible fleet strength needs to be revised and increased by at least 50% if not more and this goes for both the surface and the submarine fleets. The same goes for Army's MLRS regiments and the squadron strength of the Air Force.

50% is overkill but 25% submarine fleet can be done including ssbn

 

[binayak95]

He does have a point though. I mean, do we really need SSBVs when both our enemies happen to be our next door neighbors??

YES we do.
India Pak and China all maintain discrete land missiles with unmated warheads. That means there's always going to be the temptation to strike first and knock out the warheads before mating and retaliation can take place.
Nuke armed SSBNs are your GUARANTEED second strike capability. A promise of radioactive ash and dust for the enemy.

 

[Blademaster]

You can achieve the same by constructing underground missile silos within the Himalayan ranges.

no they become fixed and makes it easy to be destroyed by a first strike. Missiles need to be mobile to get second strike capability.

 

[Samej Jangir]

so by your logic ssbn are good for nothing for us ?
4 k4 can cripple chinese or pakistani finantial centers royally
either ways we only have 120-140 warheads so limited missile can be pointed too

and yea launching stealthly is also a big advantage sats cant watch the subs while they can watch possible silo and launch sites

Absolutely good for nothing. Missile silos deep inside mountains can not be taken out. Even missiles have their limitations and striking inside mountain ranges is difficult. Also, India has huge radar networks and if any ballistic missile is detected or even cruise missiles detected in large numbers, it will lead to immediate counterstrike.

As for warheads, count it by the amount of Uranium used in indigenous PHWR reactor not under IAEA safeguards. 100% of PHWR unsafeguarded reactors are used in Plutonium production. India also follows closed cycle process whereby Uranium is pulled out fast with plenty of U235 left and then enriched to 0.72% and used back. This is also why India never pursued LWR reactors. In reality, Indian warhead count/plutonium capacity could be in 5000-10000s by now.

SSBNs are for nuclear deterrence and used as last resort to destroy enemy. SSBNs give us second strike capability in case we got nuclear attacked. Even in case of war SSBNs are hidden and won’t take any active part in war. Also we don’t need SSBN to cripple Pakistan. Pak can be easily destroyed by using our aircraft carriers. We need SSN to attack China and we aren’t going beyond malacca straights to wage a war on China

As I said, India has mountainous regions in lakhs of sq kilometers. It can house tens of thousand of silos. Also, there is Andaman & Lakshadweep which also hosts bases. There is no point keeping SSBN in Bay of Bengal and firing missiles when A&N can be used.

for pakistan we may not but for china we do need ssbn
firstly major chinese traffic hubs are in the western side so only thing that could reach there is agni5 total flight time of agni 5 is 1130 seconds (18 minutes) which is big
in case a nuke is launched against delhi and mumbai etc our best option is to launch a nuke where the enemy doesnt expect it from
a silo can be spotted from sat images and constructing silos are also a long process with digging ground and all which could be seen by sats too
once silo is spotted its basically gonna be taken out quite quickly by conventional strike by the enemy while ssbn its immensly hard to detect and to counter it you have to have a big number of ssn and surface ships

also ssbn could be converted to ssgn so it can perform big conventinal strikes too

It is not that silos are openly constructed. Army will erect a big roof or dummy building to cover the site and then start diffing from within. No one will know whether it is silo or military camp or anything else.

Secondly, India also has radars to detect incoming missiles and will react before the missiles hit if it detects 100s of incoming missiles. Also, delhi & mumbai don't have silos in the middle of the city as big trucks moving around will be suspicious. The silos will be connected by Goods trains carrying missiles which will be unloaded at night in large shipping containers and transported.

Finally, the 4-6 missiles in SSBN is nothing compared to the thousands of missiles in silos & moving TELs. Even if hundreds of silos are desroyed somehow, there will still be hundreds more which is far more than SSBNs. As I said, India has lakhs of km in mountains other than Himalayas (which are closer to border & hence riskier) like Western ghats, eastern ghats, Vindhya, Aravalli and dozens of smaller mountain ranges. It is impossible to destroy all of them (which will require tens of thousands of missiels) without detection

yeah we be draging p75i and p75a for years now from the signing it would take at least 10 years to complete the order too and our kilo and type 209 are old too

P75I is unlikely to happen as France is not giving ToT. It will be P76 directly with full indigenous design. India does not have the data as it does not have experience. Hence the delays in getting the correct design

 

[Samej Jangir]

YES we do.
India Pak and China all maintain discrete land missiles with unmated warheads. That means there's always going to be the temptation to strike first and knock out the warheads before mating and retaliation can take place.
Nuke armed SSBNs are your GUARANTEED second strike capability. A promise of radioactive ash and dust for the enemy.

If you can keep mated warheads in SSBNs, why can't the same be kept in TEL & Silos? Why have the unnecessary delay in mating warheads when it poses huge risks to security?

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Absolutely good for nothing. Missile silos deep inside mountains can not be taken out. Even missiles have their limitations and striking inside mountain ranges is difficult. Also, India has huge radar networks and if any ballistic missile is detected or even cruise missiles detected in large numbers, it will lead to immediate counterstrike.

As for warheads, count it by the amount of Uranium used in indigenous PHWR reactor not under IAEA safeguards. 100% of PHWR unsafeguarded reactors are used in Plutonium production. India also follows closed cycle process whereby Uranium is pulled out fast with plenty of U235 left and then enriched to 0.72% and used back. This is also why India never pursued LWR reactors. In reality, Indian warhead count/plutonium capacity could be in 5000-10000s by now.


As I said, India has mountainous regions in lakhs of sq kilometers. It can house tens of thousand of silos. Also, there is Andaman & Lakshadweep which also hosts bases. There is no point keeping SSBN in Bay of Bengal and firing missiles when A&N can be used.


It is not that silos are openly constructed. Army will erect a big roof or dummy building to cover the site and then start diffing from within. No one will know whether it is silo or military camp or anything else.

Secondly, India also has radars to detect incoming missiles and will react before the missiles hit if it detects 100s of incoming missiles. Also, delhi & mumbai don't have silos in the middle of the city as big trucks moving around will be suspicious. The silos will be connected by Goods trains carrying missiles which will be unloaded at night in large shipping containers and transported.

Finally, the 4-6 missiles in SSBN is nothing compared to the thousands of missiles in silos & moving TELs. Even if hundreds of silos are desroyed somehow, there will still be hundreds more which is far more than SSBNs. As I said, India has lakhs of km in mountains other than Himalayas (which are closer to border & hence riskier) like Western ghats, eastern ghats, Vindhya, Aravalli and dozens of smaller mountain ranges. It is impossible to destroy all of them (which will require tens of thousands of missiels) without detection

Mannnn..........

Arihant class ssbn = 2 submarine carrying 4 warhead (with k4) or 12 warhead (with k15) each
in total = 8 (with 4) , 24 warhead (with k15)

S4 class ssbn = 2 submarine carrying 8 warhead (with k4) or 24 warhead (with k15) each
in total = 16 warhead (with k4) or 48 warhead (with k15)

s5 class ssbn = 3 submarine carrying 16 warheads each (with k5/k6 carrying one warhead)
total = 48 warheads

but but but k5/k6 is expected to be mirv so i assume a rather low 5-8 warheads in each missile
so total in s5 = 240-384 warheads

net total= 8 (k4)+16 (k4)+240/384= 264/408 warheads for china i guess also fyi 6 s5 are planned which would take the warhead count to (approx 700 excluding arihant and s4 class)

also bay of bengal is heaven for ssbn

also it isnt like we are sitting completly blinded be would be constructing tel silo whats the problem in building ssbns
you are like the leftists who say whats the point in building highways and airports if railway doest work correctly lmao
also saying we detected the missile falling is so like pakistan detection is only the first step then comes intercepting for that you need interceptors and interceptors are expensive we can beat china in conventional missile number game warfare keep this in mind also due to non first strike policy you cant attack china with nuke in first place

even in case they take out 100 of silos

bruhhhh
100 silo = 100 agni5 lets assume
each agni 5 cost 50-60 crore (loss of 5000-6000cr) other than than if agni5 has mirv thats loss of 300-700 warheads lmao
also how many silos are you planning ? 5000-10000 silos start constructing even 50 silos from china to west ever country would tell you to stop
it was so hard for us to perform mission shakti at a time when satellites and camera tech wasnt that advanced now making something is even harder
you want an example
these are all of our 3 active ssbn i can see them in open source free google maps but once they are gone nobody in the world can tell the exact position sometimes while silos can be detected with ease and if you start constructing them in big number everyone would know

100s of specialized people are employed by countries like china etc to pinpoint and study maps to see any difference in daily basis bruv simple thing is constructing without being unnoticed is a fools play and that couldnt be done it may be successful in making 1,2,5 but not in 100s

P75I is unlikely to happen as France is not giving ToT. It will be P76 directly with full indigenous design. India does not have the data as it does not have experience. Hence the delays in getting the correct design

do you know what p75i is ???? and who are participating in it

 

[Samej Jangir]

Mannnn..........

Arihant class ssbn = 2 submarine carrying 4 warhead (with k4) or 12 warhead (with k15) each
in total = 8 (with 4) , 24 warhead (with k15)

S4 class ssbn = 2 submarine carrying 8 warhead (with k4) or 24 warhead (with k15) each
in total = 16 warhead (with k4) or 48 warhead (with k15)

s5 class ssbn = 3 submarine carrying 16 warheads each (with k5/k6 carrying one warhead)
total = 48 warheads

but but but k5/k6 is expected to be mirv so i assume a rather low 5-8 warheads in each missile
so total in s5 = 240-384 warheads

net total= 8 (k4)+16 (k4)+240/384= 264/408 warheads for china i guess also fyi 6 s5 are planned which would take the warhead count to (approx 700 excluding arihant and s4 class)

also bay of bengal is heaven for ssbn View attachment 250217
also it isnt like we are sitting completly blinded be would be constructing tel silo whats the problem in building ssbns
you are like the leftists who say whats the point in building highways and airports if railway doest work correctly lmao
also saying we detected the missile falling is so like pakistan detection is only the first step then comes intercepting for that you need interceptors and interceptors are expensive we can beat china in conventional missile number game warfare keep this in mind also due to non first strike policy you cant attack china with nuke in first place

bruhhhh
100 silo = 100 agni5 lets assume
each agni 5 cost 50-60 crore (loss of 5000-6000cr) other than than if agni5 has mirv thats loss of 300-700 warheads lmao
also how many silos are you planning ? 5000-10000 silos start constructing even 50 silos from china to west ever country would tell you to stop
it was so hard for us to perform mission shakti at a time when satellites and camera tech wasnt that advanced now making something is even harder
you want an example
these are all of our 3 active ssbn i can see them in open source free google maps but once they are gone nobody in the world can tell the exact position sometimes while silos can be detected with ease and if you start constructing them in big number everyone would know View attachment 250220
100s of specialized people are employed by countries like china etc to pinpoint and study maps to see any difference in daily basis bruv simple thing is constructing without being unnoticed is a fools play and that couldnt be done it may be successful in making 1,2,5 but not in 100s

How do you know cost of Agni 5 when in mass production? Even PSLV costs 100 crores in basic core only version. Agni 5 is much smaller & has lower payload. Also, its warheads are more hardened and hence does not need too much protection. The cost of Agni 5 will be less if mass produced. It will be 50-60 crores including the TEL/Silo but that is still worth the price and will be much lower than making so many submarines

Secondly, basic fact is that non-ICBMs, especially MRBMs can't have MIRV. It may have multiple warheads, but all will fall in same or nearby places. MIRV requires missile to attain great altitude & speed. K15 can't have MIRV at all. K4 may have MIRV but it will be similar to Agni 3 & won't be having as long range MIRV as Agni5. So, the idea of carrying so many warheads is simply a joke.
Reality=
Arihant class: 2 subs - 4 K15, 4 warhead - 8 warheads total
S4: 3subs- 4K4, 4 warhead - 12 warheads total
S5:6 subs - 6 K5, 5 warheads - 180 warheads.
Sum total = 200 warheads. Not impressive.

As for constructing silos, do you think USA, Russia, China have low number of silos? Why do you think India will restrict its numbers? Also, if you can keep 200 warheads in SSBN, why do you think keeping higher number in Silos objectionable? As for constructing silos, do you even know how much land is owned by army? It is 18lakh sq km! Why do you think is hard to build silos in random army places by first building a dummy building (4 walls with roof) calling it as firing range, ammunition testing range, army camp etc and then simply build silos underneath? How can anyone monitor that if done stealthily?

do you know what p75i is ???? and who are participating in it

I know what is P75I. It was meant to be indigenised Kalvari with DRDO AIP. But that was abandoned as France refuses to share critical data. Korea, Germany etc are just throwing in useless offers but are equally unwilling to give ToT. So, it will go nowhere.

 

[Azaad]

goddamn bruh.......
AGNI-5 COST https://www.news18.com/opinion/opinion-why-india-testing-agni-5-is-a-milestone-moment-8812790.html
agni 5 payload is 1500kg and costs 6million $
pslv is around 3250kg costs 21-30million $



you are wrong in most facts EACH MISSILE TUBE OF ARIHANT AND S4 CLASS CAN HOUSE 3 K-15 SLBM OR 1 K4 SLBM
View attachment 250260 . View attachment 250261
here is a k-15 tri pack which packs 3 missiles here is a k4 slbm only one
can fit in a single missile tube can fit in a missile tube

so in reality your analysis is COMPLETLY WRONG

ARIHANT CLASS (2 SUBMARINES) HAS 4 MISSILE TUBES EACH
which can house either 12 K-15 or 4 K4 slbm each
S4 CLASS (2 SUBMARINES) HAS 8 MISSILE TUBES EACH
which can house 24 k-15 or 8 k-4 slbm each
S5 CLASS (3 SUBMARINES) HAS 16 MISSILE TUBES EACH
which can house 16 k5/k6 mirv slbm each

so the number is : arihant class = 2 submarine x 4 missile tube x 3 missile per tube =24 warhead
s4 class = 2 submarine x 8 missile tube x 3 missile per tube =48 warhead
s5 class= 16 missile tube x 3 submarine x 6 mirv = 288 warheads

SUM TOTAL = 288+48+24 =360 WARHEADS+288 (FROM FUTURE THREE S5 CLASS)= 650 WARHEADS


Never said constructing number of silos is the problem only said silos can be detected while submarines can operate very stealtly
to which you said that submarines are =

.

completely wrong facts from top to bottom aip kalveri is different project altogether. i wont write more for your negligence read the full deal here and do try to recheck your facts before commenting

Project-75 (India) submarine acquisition project - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sincere word of advice - conserve your energy & deploy it for productive purposes. In other words put it on ignore else you'd be filling up 2-3 pages of exchanges out here of no productive value.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Sincere word of advice - conserve your energy & deploy it for productive purposes. In other words put it on ignore else you'd be filling up 2-3 pages of exchanges our here of no productive value.

yeah sry my bad this arsehole triggered me tbh

 

[binayak95]

If you can keep mated warheads in SSBNs, why can't the same be kept in TEL & Silos? Why have the unnecessary delay in mating warheads when it poses huge risks to security?

Deescalating norms mate.

 

[no smoking]

Absolutely good for nothing. Missile silos deep inside mountains can not be taken out. Even missiles have their limitations and striking inside mountain ranges is difficult.

I don't know about where India silos are, but US, Russia and China all build their ICBM silos on the plains.
If you are talking about the missile silos (not tunnels) located between mountains or on the valleys, it is not hard to hit at all (In 1980s, both American and Russian missiles were able to do that already).

There are reasons that missile silos not built in mountain area: high construction cost, harder to maintain, easier to find, higher chance to destroy (the landslides of the mountain caused by nuclear explosion will probably bury the lid of silos in deep earth even it hit outside the CEP range).

As I said, India has mountainous regions in lakhs of sq kilometers. It can house tens of thousand of silos. Also, there is Andaman & Lakshadweep which also hosts bases. There is no point keeping SSBN in Bay of Bengal and firing missiles when A&N can be used.

In every country's nuclear war planning, all missiles silos are to be launched in the first strike against the opposite. They are also deem to be destroyed if enemy start the first strike from their end. It is silly to assume that such these silos won't be discovered by the enemy after sitting there for years.

The fact is that the survivability is like this: SSBN > land TEL > land based silos.

It is not that silos are openly constructed. Army will erect a big roof or dummy building to cover the site and then start diffing from within. No one will know whether it is silo or military camp or anything else.

You mean like this:

Don't you think that people will try to find out what is underneath when they see this kind of interesting construction sitting in nowhere?

Finally, the 4-6 missiles in SSBN is nothing compared to the thousands of missiles in silos & moving TELs. Even if hundreds of silos are desroyed somehow, there will still be hundreds more which is far more than SSBNs.

Destroying missile silos is the tactics undertaken only by nuclear war fighting countries - USA and Russia. Both of them have thousands warheads in their stock, which is enough cover your missiles silos.

China, India, Pakistan, has very limited number, the enemy's missile silos or TEL is the last thing they care.

 

[no smoking]

How do you know cost of Agni 5 when in mass production? Even PSLV costs 100 crores in basic core only version. Agni 5 is much smaller & has lower payload. Also, its warheads are more hardened and hence does not need too much protection. The cost of Agni 5 will be less if mass produced. It will be 50-60 crores including the TEL/Silo but that is still worth the price and will be much lower than making so many submarines

The cost of missiles or rockets are not depending on their size but the requirement and related technologies/material.
Once missiles are built, they will have to be kept in service for at least 15 years. In this 15 years, they be moving around on the truck, lifting up and putting down for training purpose. And also they are required to be launch in all weather conditions.

On the other hand, satellite rockets are launched in one year after produced. Most of time before launch, they are kept in the factory's warehouse in which temperature, humidity, etc, are carefully managed. On the date of launch, if there is raining, you know what? They may cancel the launch.

So, the working conditions of missiles are much worse than rockets like PSLV. That is why people like to use the best technologies/material, highest production standard to build these weapons. That is why they are more expensive.

 

[Cheran]

While India’s P-75I Submarines Hang In Balance, Pakistan Is Racing Ahead With Next-Gen Chinese Boats

While the Indian Navy’s project to acquire six next-generation submarines under Project-75I remains in limbo, Pakistan is racing ahead with its submarine program

swarajyamag.com

Where Are India’s Next Generation P-75I Submarines As Pakistan Races Away With Chinese Boats?


The Indian Navy has been looking to induct these next-generation submarines for the past decade and a half. The project, even after so long, has not seen the light of day, with only the Germans with their Type-214 submarines and the Spanish with their S-80 submarines, in the fray.

The project has seen repeated delays due to a lack of funds, decision-making, and absurd contractual requirements.

Early this month, a team from the navy visited Germany to conduct a field inspection of the AIP system offered by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), the German entrant in the P-75I program. The team will also visit Spain to do the same with their offering.

Most of the Pakistan Navy’s submarines are equipped with AIP. Pakistan Navy’s French-supplied Agosta-90B have had AIP installed since the 2000s.

The eight Hangor-class submarines will also have AIP.

The Indian Navy, on the other hand, has none.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

How do you know cost of Agni 5 when in mass production?

Opinion | Why India Testing Agni-5 is a Milestone Moment - News18

Opinion | Why India Testing Agni-5 is a Milestone Moment: India needs to continuously upgrade platform and weapon head technology. Hypersonic nuclear weapons are also evolving

www.news18.com

On 11 March 2024, the maiden flight test of the Agni-5 missile using MIRV technology was declared successful.

Agni 5 —50 tonne in weight, 17.5-metre tall, and 2-metre diameter — is designed by DRDO and manufactured by Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) at around a unit cost of Rs 50 crore ($6 million).

also you still dont get the missile number per tube so i dont wanna argue bout that

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

While India’s P-75I Submarines Hang In Balance, Pakistan Is Racing Ahead With Next-Gen Chinese Boats

While the Indian Navy’s project to acquire six next-generation submarines under Project-75I remains in limbo, Pakistan is racing ahead with its submarine program

swarajyamag.com

Where Are India’s Next Generation P-75I Submarines As Pakistan Races Away With Chinese Boats?


The Indian Navy has been looking to induct these next-generation submarines for the past decade and a half. The project, even after so long, has not seen the light of day, with only the Germans with their Type-214 submarines and the Spanish with their S-80 submarines, in the fray.

The project has seen repeated delays due to a lack of funds, decision-making, and absurd contractual requirements.

Early this month, a team from the navy visited Germany to conduct a field inspection of the AIP system offered by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), the German entrant in the P-75I program. The team will also visit Spain to do the same with their offering.

Most of the Pakistan Navy’s submarines are equipped with AIP. Pakistan Navy’s French-supplied Agosta-90B have had AIP installed since the 2000s.

The eight Hangor-class submarines will also have AIP.

The Indian Navy, on the other hand, has none.

they should make the drdo aip integration process quicker too