Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Azaad]

I hope you guys aren't seeing Li ion battery packs as a substitute for AIP coz in my limited knowledge they aren't. They're a substitute for the lead acid batteries.

The Role of Submarine Batteries in Undersea Warfare Technology

Batteries have been and will remain an important part of undersea warfare technology.

www.batterytechonline.com

 

[Azaad]

Japanese are controlled by USA. So is SKorea, Germany. Do you know of any independent state that uses Lithium battery for AIP? Li battery for replacing regular Lead acid batteries used in normal operations is understandable. But use in AIP is not very smart

Do me a favour will you ? Please put me on ignore. Pretend I don't exist. Ghost me as the Gen Z puts it.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Do me a favour will you ? Please put me on ignore. Pretend I don't exist. Ghost me as the Gen Z puts it.

that man follows an ideology which doesn't seem preferable to me

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Either ways japan sorya class does set the bar for li-ion batteries with 6100nm range with 6nm speed with aip (3 week of endurance) @4200 tons of submerged displacement
while the type 212 achieve same with 8000nm range and 8nm speed all under 1850 tons of displacement '
its clear that fuel cell takes the win plus li-ion batteries are highly inflammable and require special foams to put out the fires too

 

[binayak95]

This may come across as a noob question but you think Li ion batteries could substitute AIP altogether??

They can and they have- Soryus in IJN ( I mean the JMSDF)

 

[Satish Sharma]

Japanese are controlled by USA. So is SKorea, Germany. Do you know of any independent state that uses Lithium battery for AIP? Li battery for replacing regular Lead acid batteries used in normal operations is understandable. But use in AIP is not very smart

ohh dude
I also use to watch abhijeet chavda .
Anyways it is not what you think. Japanese certainly cannot cross some lines that doesn't mean they are full puppet of usa..
Japan will be the first country to dump us treasury.

 

[Love Charger]

How do you know cost of Agni 5 when in mass production? Even PSLV costs 100 crores in basic core only version. Agni 5 is much smaller & has lower payload. Also, its warheads are more hardened and hence does not need too much protection. The cost of Agni 5 will be less if mass produced. It will be 50-60 crores including the TEL/Silo but that is still worth the price and will be much lower than making so many submarines

Secondly, basic fact is that non-ICBMs, especially MRBMs can't have MIRV. It may have multiple warheads, but all will fall in same or nearby places. MIRV requires missile to attain great altitude & speed. K15 can't have MIRV at all. K4 may have MIRV but it will be similar to Agni 3 & won't be having as long range MIRV as Agni5. So, the idea of carrying so many warheads is simply a joke.
Reality=
Arihant class: 2 subs - 4 K15, 4 warhead - 8 warheads total
S4: 3subs- 4K4, 4 warhead - 12 warheads total
S5:6 subs - 6 K5, 5 warheads - 180 warheads.
Sum total = 200 warheads. Not impressive.

As for constructing silos, do you think USA, Russia, China have low number of silos? Why do you think India will restrict its numbers? Also, if you can keep 200 warheads in SSBN, why do you think keeping higher number in Silos objectionable? As for constructing silos, do you even know how much land is owned by army? It is 18lakh sq km! Why do you think is hard to build silos in random army places by first building a dummy building (4 walls with roof) calling it as firing range, ammunition testing range, army camp etc and then simply build silos underneath? How can anyone monitor that if done stealthily?


I know what is P75I. It was meant to be indigenised Kalvari with DRDO AIP. But that was abandoned as France refuses to share critical data. Korea, Germany etc are just throwing in useless offers but are equally unwilling to give ToT. So, it will go nowhere.

Intelligence is a virtue which has sadly always eluded you my brother.
You have the attitude of royal Navy combined with that of Imperial Japanese navy Admirals, and even they both constructed submarines.
Say you meet a friend of yours named √-4 , whose moral character is undefined to you as he is a habitual liar .
And he claims with that he has a 10 rupee note .
You are unsure as to how to test him on the truthfulness of his claim , that he indeed has a 10 rupee note .
You ask him to show the proof aka " saboot dikhana " thus the man immediately pulls out a crisp 10 rupee from his shirts pocket and shows the note to you .
You are impressed and happy that you weren't being lied to by your friend who has undefined moral character , and your iota of belief in him proved correct .
You two go on happily ever after .
Now let's say you meet a submarine named INS Arihant , which claims that apart from being able to fire long range hole poking devices at enemy vessels , she can also fire inter continental ballistic missiles !
You are amazed but you dismiss this claim of the arihant class submarine , just like Iranians who still religiously belief that the arihant has been lost due to a open hatch while submerging.
Then the submarine gets very gussa at you , and thus opens up it's missile silos to show that it can indeed fire an icbm .
You are proven wrong but rather than accepting your defeat,you start to emotionally abuse the arihant.
She hears all the judgements on its capabilities by you and submerges again due to being hurt by your comments.
You sir are a monster , you made a Arihant class SSBN cry and create self doubts about herself in her mind.
You should apologise to the submarine and accept that it can fire Nuclear capable ICBMs.
@binayak95
@Smoothbore125mm

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Intelligence is a virtue which has sadly always eluded you my brother.
You have the attitude of royal Navy combined with that of Imperial Japanese navy Admirals, and even they both constructed submarines.
Say you meet a friend of yours named √-4 , whose moral character is undefined to you as he is a habitual liar .
And he claims with that he has a 10 rupee note .
You are unsure as to how to test him on the truthfulness of his claim , that he indeed has a 10 rupee note .
You ask him to show the proof aka " saboot dikhana " thus the man immediately pulls out a crisp 10 rupee from his shirts pocket and shows the note to you .
You are impressed and happy that you weren't being lied to by your friend who has undefined moral character , and your iota of belief in him proved correct .
You two go on happily ever after .
Now let's say you meet a submarine named INS Arihant , which claims that apart from being able to fire long range hole poking devices at enemy vessels , she can also fire inter continental ballistic missiles !
You are amazed but you dismiss this claim of the arihant class submarine , just like Iranians who still religiously belief that the arihant has been lost due to a open hatch while submerging.
Then the submarine gets very gussa at you , and thus opens up it's missile silos to show that it can indeed fire an icbm .
You are proven wrong but rather than accepting your defeat,you start to emotionally abuse the arihant.
She hears all the judgements on its capabilities by you and submerges again due to being hurt by your comments.
You sir are a monster , you made a Arihant class SSBN cry and create self doubts about herself in her mind.
You should apologise to the submarine and accept that it can fire Nuclear capable ICBMs.
@binayak95
@Smoothbore125mm

my man is still wondering how many k15 arihant can fire and assuming we have 1000 nukes at any time to fit into silo then we can fire 5000 icbm from 2 silo cause enemy cant detect hence gazwa-e-china executed successfully

ps Iranians be shitting their pants with rage watching this picture

 

[no smoking]

SSBN has many drawbacks:
1. Higher service rate: SILOs can be hidden permanently & with radars to detect incoming missiles, any SILO which is deep in India like Vindhyas, Western Ghats, Eastern Ghats, Aravallis, Odisha, Chattisgarh mountains etc can be fired as soon as incoming missiles are detected to be incoming, preventing any first strikes, even if SILOs are somehow spotted.

Again, the SILOS are used for first strike, they can't prevent any first strike.
Let's make a calculation: assume the average ICBM speed is 15 Mach per seconds, that is 18525km/h. So in one minute, it flies 308.75km. If your enemy launches missiles 5000km away, it takes them 16.2 minutes. In other words, it only give maximum 16.2 minutes for India commanding system from detection, report, collection information, draw initial conclusion, inform civilian government, discussion, making decision, sending the command/code, verification, prepare launch and finally missile leave SILO. This is a very long command chain, there is no way you can finish the whole procedure in 16.2 minutes.

So, you can be sure most of your SILO won't survive (>90%) in enemy's first strike. That is why everyone put most of their warheads into SSBN or at least TEL if you don't have that much money.

Submarines always have downtime of 30% as there are supply needs like food, sanitary equipments & fatigue issues

They are trained to do their job for decades, don't worry about that.

2. Cost: SILOs cost much lesser (1%) per ICBM whereas the submarine cost per ICBM (cost per submarine/number of ICBM) is way too high. Remember, each missile in a SILO can carry MIRV too. So, if there are 500 SILOs, there can be 2000-2500 warheads. Also, since ICBM needs to be placed in both submarine & SILO, only the cost of container is in question, not cost of missile. This means we must only compare cost of making an underground structure containing the missile vs submarine & exclude missile cost itself. So, cost of a SILO becomes 10 crores (mostly concrete & launch mechanisms) compared to 6000 crore for S5 submarines with 6 ICBMs or 1000 crore per ICBM!

This is life and death issue, cost is the second problem unless you are as poor as North Korea. Damn, even North Korea is building their submarine launched missiles.

3. Bad communication: Since it is underwater most of the time, it can't get quick & direct communications. Even deploying buoys to get indirect communication can be detected by SIGINT. Hence even in case os wars, the time to relay the info to SSBN will be too much and hence its attacks not very effective

These are technical issues, they are already figured out during cold war period.

4. Missile preservation: Being moved around in submarine, TEL etc takes a toll of missile life. But in SILO, it can be preserved for long time by maintaining air condition and undisturbed environment.

There is no big difference between submarine and SILOS on length of missile preservation. Both are longer than missiles' own service year limitation.

 

[Samej Jangir]

Again, the SILOS are used for first strike, they can't prevent any first strike.
Let's make a calculation: assume the average ICBM speed is 15 Mach per seconds, that is 18525km/h. So in one minute, it flies 308.75km. If your enemy launches missiles 5000km away, it takes them 16.2 minutes. In other words, it only give maximum 16.2 minutes for India commanding system from detection, report, collection information, draw initial conclusion, inform civilian government, discussion, making decision, sending the command/code, verification, prepare launch and finally missile leave SILO. This is a very long command chain, there is no way you can finish the whole procedure in 16.2 minutes.

So, you can be sure most of your SILO won't survive (>90%) in enemy's first strike. That is why everyone put most of their warheads into SSBN or at least TEL if you don't have that much money.

Why do you think 16 minutes is not enough? When it is a life & death situation, why would one make it a long process? Detecting incoming missiles is not hard given the radar quality. Also, if one spots hundreds of missiles incoming, there is no room for speculation or assessment. If it is just 1 missile, only then one can take some time for assessment but just fire back at the source

Second point is that SILOs can be built even in current installations like nuclear sites, aerospace manufacturing units, defence industrial sites, overhaul & repair sites, training camps etc. It is extremely hard to detect silos if constructed in camouflaged areas. For every SILO you think is detectable, there will be ten more which are camouflaged. Even satellites can't detect if a construction activity is an ammunition depot, underground hanger, bunker or SILO if done in a secretive & camouflaged manner. India has its own satellites and can ask its experts to observe and tell whether any of the activity is detectable and then improvise on the stealth nature of cosntruction till its becomes undetectable.

Secondly, SILOs tend to have thick concrete cover which becomes indestructible unless hit directly spot on which almost no ICB can. Most ICBMs have accuracy in range of 10 metres which is enough for a SILO to survive. The opening of the SILO can be rigged with shaped explosives to burst through if it is blocked with rubble.

This is life and death issue, cost is the second problem unless you are as poor as North Korea. Damn, even North Korea is building their submarine launched missiles.

I don't disagree about security importance over profits but cost still matters as that improves efficiency in terms of increasing damage to enemy & lowers loss to oneself when scaled up.
India uses nearly 100% of its indigenous uranium production for making warheads. In the year 2000 itself India produced 300tons Uranium per year with each ton having 7.2kg U235 and can be converted to 4-5kg plutonium in a closed cycle run. 1 ton = 1 Plutonium core on average. Additional depleted Uranium may be used as 2nd stage or some Uranium may be enriched for 2nd stage, reducing the number of warheads to 1 warhead per 2 tons. Currently Indian Uranium mining has significantly increased. Over the time of last 50 years, India has produced 10000+ ton of Uranium & can be expected to have by all logic, 5000+ warheads. India is likely producing 500-1000 warheads per year as of current times given increase in Uranium mining.

This is where cost comes in. Low cost but effective solutions. SILOs will allow one to have hundreds or thousands of SILOs across the country with relative ease, speed and wide spread. SSBNs take too long to make, deploy, maintain etc. So, SILOs will have the advantage

There is no big difference between submarine and SILOS on length of missile preservation. Both are longer than missiles' own service year limitation.

The missile life itself will lower if subject to stress by regular movement, pressure, operating heat, handling etc. So, that is where SILOs will help improve serviceability of ICBMs

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

New naval chief Admiral Dinesh K Tripathi is here with the ex-naval chief Admiral R. Hari kumar

with a little bit of our culture too (personally i loved it)

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Ive made a possible deterence of india with the brahmos-er(second pic) and nirbhay(1000km)(first pic) from strategic locations like north-east ,minicoy, a/n island,rajisthan and ladakh in case of a war

and the strategic deterance of k4 fired from bay of bengal and somewhere far from china (both cover beijing/shanghai)

 

[Longewala]

Do me a favour will you ? Please put me on ignore. Pretend I don't exist. Ghost me as the Gen Z puts it.

No.
We all suffer together here. No one escapes.

 

[mamamia12]

When will Navy get a LRASM type Stealth Missile.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

When will Navy get a LRASM type Stealth Missile.

we do have scalp but they are with air force but i think alpha defence mention a stealth cruise missile to be under development and the cats hunter too is in development i think pretty soon 2-3 years

 

[no smoking]

Why do you think 16 minutes is not enough? When it is a life & death situation, why would one make it a long process?

Exactly because it is a life & death situation, no one wants to rush into a wrong decision. That is why the decision must be made with thorough consideration.

Let's think some scenarios again:
Assume both China and India have the same number of warheads/missiles (300) and the same population kill rate: 30 millions people (the maximum) without considering other tech issues. Each country has 1/3 missiles stay in SILOs as first strike (these missiles can kill 10 millions), the rest is kept as second strike force.

One day, your radars tell you there are massive scale of Chinese missiles launched (100 missiles), they are targeting your SILOS (in reality, both China and India's nuclear missiles only target the enemy's big cities)

Scenario 1: you immediately inform Modi (without any verification from other department) and he gives his launch order immediately (again without consulting with other leaders). Within 8 minutes after detection, all Indian SILO missiles are launched.
There are 2 possible results:
A. You and Modi are right - Chinese starts the nuclear war, India strikes back by killing 30 millions Chinese when India loses 20 millions population;
B. You and Modi are wrong, there is no massive Chinese missile launch, or the Chinese missiles only have conventional warheads for limited war, then you and Modi successfully bring India's casualty from 0 or 30k up to 30 millions.

Scenario 2: after a 16+ minutes long decision making, India misses the opportunity to launch SILO missiles.
There are 2 possible results too:
A. Chinese did start the nuclear war, you lose 100 SILO missiles, but you still get 200 other missiles, but China also has only 200 other missiles now, so both sides can kill 20 millions people;
B. There is no Chinese nuclear missiles launch, the system makes mistake, there is no nuclear war or only conventional war which India can fight back, so basically India will suffer 0 or 30k casualty when China suffer 0 or 30k casualty.

Now, tell me which one you want to see.

Detecting incoming missiles is not hard given the radar quality. Also, if one spots hundreds of missiles incoming, there is no room for speculation or assessment. If it is just 1 missile, only then one can take some time for assessment but just fire back at the source.

During cold war period, there were plenty of false warning on both sides' radar networks. So, yes, both sides came to the same conclusion: they would rather lose 1000 SILO missiles than starting a nuclear war based on false alarm.

Second point is that SILOs can be built even in current installations like nuclear sites, aerospace manufacturing units, defence industrial sites, overhaul & repair sites, training camps etc. It is extremely hard to detect silos if constructed in camouflaged areas. For every SILO you think is detectable, there will be ten more which are camouflaged. Even satellites can't detect if a construction activity is an ammunition depot, underground hanger, bunker or SILO if done in a secretive & camouflaged manner. India has its own satellites and can ask its experts to observe and tell whether any of the activity is detectable and then improvise on the stealth nature of cosntruction till its becomes undetectable.

The SILOs are not staying there for a few month, they will be there for years or decades. In such a long period of time, no one can guarantee the secrets will be guarded well.

Secondly, SILOs tend to have thick concrete cover which becomes indestructible unless hit directly spot on which almost no ICB can. Most ICBMs have accuracy in range of 10 metres which is enough for a SILO to survive. The opening of the SILO can be rigged with shaped explosives to burst through if it is blocked with rubble.

During cold war, based on the public information, the US SILO can resist 2000 PSI by direct hit. Someone suggested to upgrade them to 10000 PSI, but it was rejected because the cost and useless.

It turned out that a 300k bomb detonated within 94m of the SILO can produced 10000 PSI already.

In 1980s, Amercian missiles had already got that accuracy. How do you think today.

So, there is no hope that SILO can win the race against warhead.

I don't disagree about security importance over profits but cost still matters as that improves efficiency in terms of increasing damage to enemy & lowers loss to oneself when scaled up.

.....

The missile life itself will lower if subject to stress by regular movement, pressure, operating heat, handling etc. So, that is where SILOs will help improve serviceability of ICBMs

For this part, I think we should stop arguing. After all, all nuclear countries were coming to the same conclusion regarding SILOs after decades of planning, simulation and calculation. We have to trust these guys since both of us are outsiders unless you know something they don't know.

 

[Samej Jangir]

Exactly because it is a life & death situation, no one wants to rush into a wrong decision. That is why the decision must be made with thorough consideration.

Let's think some scenarios again:
Assume both China and India have the same number of warheads/missiles (300) and the same population kill rate: 30 millions people (the maximum) without considering other tech issues. Each country has 1/3 missiles stay in SILOs as first strike (these missiles can kill 10 millions), the rest is kept as second strike force.

One day, your radars tell you there are massive scale of Chinese missiles launched (100 missiles), they are targeting your SILOS (in reality, both China and India's nuclear missiles only target the enemy's big cities)

Scenario 1: you immediately inform Modi (without any verification from other department) and he gives his launch order immediately (again without consulting with other leaders). Within 8 minutes after detection, all Indian SILO missiles are launched.
There are 2 possible results:
A. You and Modi are right - Chinese starts the nuclear war, India strikes back by killing 30 millions Chinese when India loses 20 millions population;
B. You and Modi are wrong, there is no massive Chinese missile launch, or the Chinese missiles only have conventional warheads for limited war, then you and Modi successfully bring India's casualty from 0 or 30k up to 30 millions.

Scenario 2: after a 16+ minutes long decision making, India misses the opportunity to launch SILO missiles.
There are 2 possible results too:
A. Chinese did start the nuclear war, you lose 100 SILO missiles, but you still get 200 other missiles, but China also has only 200 other missiles now, so both sides can kill 20 millions people;
B. There is no Chinese nuclear missiles launch, the system makes mistake, there is no nuclear war or only conventional war which India can fight back, so basically India will suffer 0 or 30k casualty when China suffer 0 or 30k casualty.

Now, tell me which one you want to see.

During cold war period, there were plenty of false warning on both sides' radar networks. So, yes, both sides came to the same conclusion: they would rather lose 1000 SILO missiles than starting a nuclear war based on false alarm.

I don't see how one can detect 100s of missiles incoming as a false alarm. Yes, 1-2 missiles being falsely detected is a possibility but 1000s is not. There is no concept of conventional strikes in such huge numbers. If anyone does such huge number of strikes, then it is all out war, no ifs & buts. Also, China likely has 10000+ warheads and India likely has 5000+ warheads. When USA, USSR could have 30000+ warheads in 1970s, it is not unreasonable to expect China, India to have thousands of warheads in 2020s. China has significantly more Uranium mines than India but India also has decent amount of Uranium and none will simply sit quiet with just 500 warheads as it is a survival scenario. It is simply kept hidden & secretive.

That being said, I do see how mistakes can happen - if a bunch of missiles come in from the North, it is possible that they were fired by USA over North pole rather than China. So, finding out the origins may be an issue in such quick time. USA can detect that because it has radar sites all over the world like in Europe, Australia, Middle east, Diego Garcia, Singapore, Thailand, SKorea etc, Europe, Kenya, Botswana, Senegal which can detect signals launches from anywhere. But any other country will be hard pressed to find origins that quickly.

The SILOs are not staying there for a few month, they will be there for years or decades. In such a long period of time, no one can guarantee the secrets will be guarded well.

Yes, true. There is a possibility that there may be spies within who will leak info.

During cold war, based on the public information, the US SILO can resist 2000 PSI by direct hit. Someone suggested to upgrade them to 10000 PSI, but it was rejected because the cost and useless.

It turned out that a 300k bomb detonated within 94m of the SILO can produced 10000 PSI already.

In 1980s, Amercian missiles had already got that accuracy. How do you think today.

So, there is no hope that SILO can win the race against warhead.

I see what you are saying. I won't deny that SILOs can't completely be hidden forever and with limitations of making quick decisions on retaliation, it may not entirely be possible to retaliate as soon as missiles are detected.

For this part, I think we should stop arguing. After all, all nuclear countries were coming to the same conclusion regarding SILOs after decades of planning, simulation and calculation. We have to trust these guys since both of us are outsiders unless you know something they don't know.

In an era with nuclear warheads in the range of 10000, it would take several huge SSBNs with dozens of missiles with 5+ MIRV warheads to even wage an effective counterstrike. Small submarines like the ones India is building will be completely useless as SSBNs considering the low number of warheads it can carry. If India is building 15000+ ton SSBN, it would make more sense. But small SSBNs like the ones India has is completely absurd.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

I don't see how one can detect 100s of missiles incoming as a false alarm. Yes, 1-2 missiles being falsely detected is a possibility but 1000s is not. There is no concept of conventional strikes in such huge numbers. If anyone does such huge number of strikes, then it is all out war, no ifs & buts. Also, China likely has 10000+ warheads and India likely has 5000+ warheads. When USA, USSR could have 30000+ warheads in 1970s, it is not unreasonable to expect China, India to have thousands of warheads in 2020s. China has significantly more Uranium mines than India but India also has decent amount of Uranium and none will simply sit quiet with just 500 warheads as it is a survival scenario. It is simply kept hidden & secretive.

That being said, I do see how mistakes can happen - if a bunch of missiles come in from the North, it is possible that they were fired by USA over North pole rather than China. So, finding out the origins may be an issue in such quick time. USA can detect that because it has radar sites all over the world like in Europe, Australia, Middle east, Diego Garcia, Singapore, Thailand, SKorea etc, Europe, Kenya, Botswana, Senegal which can detect signals launches from anywhere. But any other country will be hard pressed to find origins that quickly.


Yes, true. There is a possibility that there may be spies within who will leak info.


I see what you are saying. I won't deny that SILOs can't completely be hidden forever and with limitations of making quick decisions on retaliation, it may not entirely be possible to retaliate as soon as missiles are detected.


In an era with nuclear warheads in the range of 10000, it would take several huge SSBNs with dozens of missiles with 5+ MIRV warheads to even wage an effective counterstrike. Small submarines like the ones India is building will be completely useless as SSBNs considering the low number of warheads it can carry. If India is building 15000+ ton SSBN, it would make more sense. But small SSBNs like the ones India has is completely absurd.

 

[Samej Jangir]

View attachment 250984

Then why don't you quit the forum? I am only saying that the SSBNs which are small and can't carry large number of ICBMs are practically useless. This is in context of Arihant class subs. Nothing wrong in trying assess with high certainty whether Arihant is a SSN or not by going through all possible angles.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Then why don't you quit the forum? I am only saying that the SSBNs which are small and can't carry large number of ICBMs are practically useless. This is in context of Arihant class subs. Nothing wrong in trying assess with high certainty whether Arihant is a SSN or not by going through all possible angles.

@Mods please try and provide us with a clown emoji in the reactions
Like this -