Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

Azaad

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2022
Messages
8,168
Likes
30,366
Country flag
How do you know it was a bot and not a real human? Moreover, why is he posting from Australia?

As for his reply, he was saying that N-submarines are not safe for Indian neighbourhood, thus India needs K-submarines to deal with Indian neighbouhood.

The reason also was given by him sometime back saying that N-submarines are more noisy. I have also mentioned above that N-reactors produce noise from continual waterflow and give out heat signatures due to the inability to shut down reactors whereas diesel submarines can shut down diesel engines and run on AIP/battery power only which is extremely quiet. This is why N-submarines are not safe in close combats.
I know so because I've been reading his posts since 2010 if not earlier. If I put up a flag or Russia in my handle , does it make me a Russian ? What sort of retarded logic is this ?

Do you actually read what a member is posting consistently before you get an idea of his inclinations or do you do so on the basis of an odd comment here or there ?

Don't jump in assuming you know everything.
 

Samej Jangir

Regular Member
Joined
May 15, 2023
Messages
401
Likes
605
Country flag
Because they are harder to hunt and can be sent out for much longer missions than diesel subs. Also, ASW is not that simple, read up on shadow zones etc. Nuke subs can properly exploit this, by not having to reveal location periodically.


20-30 billion dollars for some 5000-8000 ish jobs? Terrible employment scheme lol. And Indigenous doesnt imply cheap, all countries with nuke subs make their own and still have to pay ~4x for even the smallest nuke subs, compared to the most modern diesel subs
N-subs are able to deploy over long distance. You are 100% correct here. But how does that make them harder to hunt? Unless you are using N subs as VIP bunkers to hide from apocalypse, it does not make sense. N-submarines are deployed to fight and hence must have to be in the shipping route which means warships will be able to detect them. Relative to K-subs, N-subs will be much easier to detect due to much higher level of noise and thermals.

I know ASW is not simple. But when compared to N-sub, K-sub has lower signatures and hence have lower probability of detection.

As for 20 billion dollars, a single submarine even in USA does not cost that much. Indian submarines cost high as cost of infrastructure, trainings, industry supply chains etc are involved due to it being a first time project. But subsequent projects will have much lower costs, likely to the tune of 4000 crores. Kalvari submarine without any critical TOT costs 3000 crores even without AIP!

A diesel submarine carries 300tons of diesel for 30 day deployment. This is 10tons per day. Even if a submarine is deployed for 6 months a year, in 20 years, it would consume 40000 tons of diesel which will cost nearly 500 crores in expense of which 50% is forex (oil is imported but diesel has 100% taxation & hence only 50% cost is taken). Also, there is additional cost of fuel cell refuelling etc.

So, it is not cost but feasibility, ease of repair, recovering losses etc that make K-subs so functionally useful for Indian context. This is also why Russia, China, despite their huge resources, still build diesel submarines. They need diesel submarines to deal with nearby shores and littoral waters for marine border defence.
 

SwordOfDarkness

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2021
Messages
2,764
Likes
11,779
Country flag
N-subs are able to deploy over long distance. You are 100% correct here. But how does that make them harder to hunt? Unless you are using N subs as VIP bunkers to hide from apocalypse, it does not make sense. N-submarines are deployed to fight and hence must have to be in the shipping route which means warships will be able to detect them. Relative to K-subs, N-subs will be much easier to detect due to much higher level of noise and thermals.

I know ASW is not simple. But when compared to N-sub, K-sub has lower signatures and hence have lower probability of detection.

As for 20 billion dollars, a single submarine even in USA does not cost that much. Indian submarines cost high as cost of infrastructure, trainings, industry supply chains etc are involved due to it being a first time project. But subsequent projects will have much lower costs, likely to the tune of 4000 crores. Kalvari submarine without any critical TOT costs 3000 crores even without AIP!

A diesel submarine carries 300tons of diesel for 30 day deployment. This is 10tons per day. Even if a submarine is deployed for 6 months a year, in 20 years, it would consume 40000 tons of diesel which will cost nearly 500 crores in expense of which 50% is forex (oil is imported but diesel has 100% taxation & hence only 50% cost is taken). Also, there is additional cost of fuel cell refuelling etc.

So, it is not cost but feasibility, ease of repair, recovering losses etc that make K-subs so functionally useful for Indian context. This is also why Russia, China, despite their huge resources, still build diesel submarines. They need diesel submarines to deal with nearby shores and littoral waters for marine border defence.
Lots of things wrong here, but at this point I wont be trying to correct here. Pls do a deep dive instead of surface level online discourse/media chatter. Look up SubBrief/HI Sutton on YT, and a very good series SmarterEveryDay had on nuke subs as well.
 

jai jaganath

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2022
Messages
5,935
Likes
10,354
Country flag
I knew it
There are no small number orders
Once inducted it's easier to convince for more imports
Anyways navy will induct it's share of tapas that is 12
Now expect army to place orders for hermes above 40
And those people defending that military doesn't need drones as it's useless on contested environment so tapas won't get orders will definitely get reality check

Same thing will happen to whap atags
Just wait and watch and we defence enthusiasts will keep getting L
And some optimists will definitely come and shout old man there will ensure indigenization
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 

Smoothbore125mm

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
826
Likes
2,321
Country flag
INS Surat is visible and seems completed.
However no news or clear visuals of Nilgiri Class. Pretty much confirmed that the first ship wont be commissioned anytime before 2025. Thats again, 7 years for a Frigate..
Indian navy had planned more upgrades for the nilgiri class so mdl had to postpone delivery timings
Said by mdl representative in stockholder call
 

blackleaf

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2021
Messages
292
Likes
1,028
Country flag
Indian navy had planned more upgrades for the nilgiri class so mdl had to postpone delivery timings
Said by mdl representative in stockholder call
Why do they always keep changing the design? Can't they decide on what they want before construction?
 

Smoothbore125mm

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
826
Likes
2,321
Country flag
Why do they always keep changing the design? Can't they decide on what they want before construction?
  1. well threats change and navy has to change too from ukraine war many learning must have been already implemented
  2. plus if a ship has to undergo a decently big change it would have to wait till many years for it so its better to have a ship deliver 1-2 years later than have it without the upg done
  3. plus you have to add the time lost in covid too it had an adverse effect on the timelines
  4. also the biggest reason is the design was fixed in 2013 (just imagine how different 2025 and 2013 are) and we can basically have the upgrades done cause there isnt any major crisis happening that shipyards have to work at full steam
 

Blademaster

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
9,654
Likes
27,898
  1. well threats change and navy has to change too from ukraine war many learning must have been already implemented
  2. plus if a ship has to undergo a decently big change it would have to wait till many years for it so its better to have a ship deliver 1-2 years later than have it without the upg done
  3. plus you have to add the time lost in covid too it had an adverse effect on the timelines
  4. also the biggest reason is the design was fixed in 2013 (just imagine how different 2025 and 2013 are) and we can basically have the upgrades done cause there isnt any major crisis happening that shipyards have to work at full steam
We need to use the concept of tranches to incorporate upgrades in an incremental manner and use 7-10 year refitting periods to incorporate upgrades into already built ships.
 

Smoothbore125mm

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2024
Messages
826
Likes
2,321
Country flag
We need to use the concept of tranches to incorporate upgrades in an incremental manner and use 7-10 year refitting periods to incorporate upgrades into already built ships.
we already did that with p17 'shivalik' and p17b 'nilgiri' but i think they are in them self too big an order
with 3 shivalik + 7 nilgiri class (which could be split to 3 p17,3 p17a and 4p17b maybe) but navy knows better though
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,056
Likes
2,353
Country flag
This isnt actually that accurate.

Main reason for non nuclear arsenal is tech and financial barrier.
Soviet didn't have both problems, but they still built a lots of Non-nuclear submarines, why? Because they had to face Western fleet in their backyard! That is where non-nuclear submarines are better than nuclear submarines.

If we overcome those, we will likely go for mostly nuclear subs, as we have a dominant position in the Indian ocean which is pretty big.
Sorry, you are one of the largest navy in IOR, but you don't have dominant position. That position belongs to Americans for now.

Deisel subs are fine for anti shipping but not really optimal for deterring capital ships.
Who said that? Deisel subs play important role in both Russia and China's war plan against American fleet.
 

blackleaf

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2021
Messages
292
Likes
1,028
Country flag
  1. well threats change and navy has to change too from ukraine war many learning must have been already implemented
  2. plus if a ship has to undergo a decently big change it would have to wait till many years for it so its better to have a ship deliver 1-2 years later than have it without the upg done
  3. plus you have to add the time lost in covid too it had an adverse effect on the timelines
  4. also the biggest reason is the design was fixed in 2013 (just imagine how different 2025 and 2013 are) and we can basically have the upgrades done cause there isnt any major crisis happening that shipyards have to work at full steam
Has there been any indication on what changes have been made? From what I have seen the major weapon systems are the same ones that were frozen in 2013 (Barak8, MFSTAR, Brahamos).
 

binayak95

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
2,520
Likes
8,754
Country flag
Has there been any indication on what changes have been made? From what I have seen the major weapon systems are the same ones that were frozen in 2013 (Barak8, MFSTAR, Brahamos).
Armament and sensors are rarely if ever touched. Design improvements generally are to stores, crew comfort, and automation. Sometimes the very construction is changed ala last 2 Kamortas
 

binayak95

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
2,520
Likes
8,754
Country flag
The entire nuclear and non nuclear SSKs debate going on is moronic.

Arihant is an SSBN. SSBN's do not use a higher power rated reactor like SSNs. Nor do they need rapid ramping up of power output like SSNs since they either sit on the ocean floor or cruise at very slow speeds to remain undetected in launch positions.

SSNs need to be able to quickly ramp up speed and power, hunt down enemy surface combatants and submarines, and evade enemy search and CAP.

To achieve that while maintaining a near black hole acoustic signature is a barrier that is far from easily surpassed. We have the ability, but wisely chose to settle for the lower hanging fruit of SSBNs first.

SSKs (modern day ones) are smaller, quieter, have good endurance and carry all the weapons you'd want in an SSN (except SF deployment and large number of silos)

So yeah, invest in large number of SSKs, keep your SSNs for hunting down enemy SSBNs or escorting your own SSBNs.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top