Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Zoid Raptor]

P8-I with Harpoon Blk-II

 

[Samej Jangir]

The entire nuclear and non nuclear SSKs debate going on is moronic.

Arihant is an SSBN. SSBN's do not use a higher power rated reactor like SSNs. Nor do they need rapid ramping up of power output like SSNs since they either sit on the ocean floor or cruise at very slow speeds to remain undetected in launch positions.

SSNs need to be able to quickly ramp up speed and power, hunt down enemy surface combatants and submarines, and evade enemy search and CAP.

To achieve that while maintaining a near black hole acoustic signature is a barrier that is far from easily surpassed. We have the ability, but wisely chose to settle for the lower hanging fruit of SSBNs first.

SSKs (modern day ones) are smaller, quieter, have good endurance and carry all the weapons you'd want in an SSN (except SF deployment and large number of silos)

So yeah, invest in large number of SSKs, keep your SSNs for hunting down enemy SSBNs or escorting your own SSBNs.

We have seen how India regularly understated its capabilities. So, I would not be surprised if Arihant actually ends up being SSNs instead of SSBNs.
To be realistic, India is not small like israel. So, India has huge amounts of space, especially in mountainous regions which extends to lakhs of square kilometer area to create silos for ICBMs. With new ICBMs capable of striking 10000-12000km, it does not make sense to invest heavily in SSBNs. Moreover, India does not have indigenous GPS to navigate in Pacific & Atlantic anyways. So, what purpose will SSBNs serve that hidden missile silos don't?

Also, looking at Arihant, it is just 6000tons which is smaller than any SSBN. It was also inspired by Akula & in 1998-99, India had actually stated its intent to build SSN. But suddenly, Arihant was said to be SSBN! There was no justification given regarding need for SSBN, the reason for change etc. The low IQ presstitutes started justifying SSBNs by using fancy jargons like nuclear triads without referring to the fact that SSBNs are relevant only when 2 conditions are met: 1) The accuracy of ICBMs were low like in pre 1990 era and hence needed submarines close to target & 2) There should be global Indigenous GPS cover to be able to navigate to Atlantic & Pacific when the adversaries (USA, EU) have GPS

To be realistic, it is very much reasonable to expect Arihant to be SSN which India is understating to be SSBN

 

[binayak95]

We have seen how India regularly understated its capabilities. So, I would not be surprised if Arihant actually ends up being SSNs instead of SSBNs.
To be realistic, India is not small like israel. So, India has huge amounts of space, especially in mountainous regions which extends to lakhs of square kilometer area to create silos for ICBMs. With new ICBMs capable of striking 10000-12000km, it does not make sense to invest heavily in SSBNs. Moreover, India does not have indigenous GPS to navigate in Pacific & Atlantic anyways. So, what purpose will SSBNs serve that hidden missile silos don't?

Also, looking at Arihant, it is just 6000tons which is smaller than any SSBN. It was also inspired by Akula & in 1998-99, India had actually stated its intent to build SSN. But suddenly, Arihant was said to be SSBN! There was no justification given regarding need for SSBN, the reason for change etc. The low IQ presstitutes started justifying SSBNs by using fancy jargons like nuclear triads without referring to the fact that SSBNs are relevant only when 2 conditions are met: 1) The accuracy of ICBMs were low like in pre 1990 era and hence needed submarines close to target & 2) There should be global Indigenous GPS cover to be able to navigate to Atlantic & Pacific when the adversaries (USA, EU) have GPS

To be realistic, it is very much reasonable to expect Arihant to be SSN which India is understating to be SSBN

83 thermal MW ke reactor se SSN?
Kis duniya mai khoyehue ho.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

83 thermal MW ke reactor se SSN?
Kis duniya mai khoyehue ho.

Forget reactor, Nuclear submarine with giant nuclear ballistic missile tubes? Seedhe SSBN by definition.

 

[Azaad]

83 thermal MW ke reactor se SSN?
Kis duniya mai khoyehue ho.

Did you miss the fact that Admiral here thinks the SSBNs in the past were relevant only coz they were supposed to travel as close to the target as possible to fire ICBMs ? It probably read / thought CCMs here instead of ICBMs , hence it follows it is also dyslexic apart from being autistic.

 

[binayak95]

Forget reactor, Nuclear submarine with giant nuclear ballistic missile tubes? Seedhe SSBN by definition.

I can accept an argument that Arihant is our SSGN, there is some potential there. but SSN?

 

[NutCracker]

83 thermal MW ke reactor se SSN?
Kis duniya mai khoyehue ho.

What are the various reactors installed in Arighat etc. I read somewhere it goes upto 190mw BARC one (same as Akula I think, that's why lease). Can two of those be fitted into a 60k Tonne carrier .

 

[Samej Jangir]

83 thermal MW ke reactor se SSN?
Kis duniya mai khoyehue ho.

In case of Arihant, there are 2 physical factors which contradict each other- it is 6000ton which is too small to be SSBN. But it also has 83MWth reactor which is too small to be SSN.

However, the main factor of contention is its functionality. As I mentioned, Indian mountain regions extend to lakhs of Sq km area which can never be destroyed in any first strike. It can house thousands of ICBM in silos. The mere 4-6 MRBM in Arihant makes no sense. Also, it is said to carry K15 missiles with just 1000km range which makes it ridiculous.

The likely answer to the above contradiction is:
Arihant was a base model which was the first compact PWR made by India. So, its design may have been suboptimal & may be used as a tech demonstrator or a subotpimal SSGN rather than actual SSBN or SSN. But the next variants are kept highly secretive with no info on specs. Going by functionality, since SSBNs are functionally useless, the next variants are likely SSNs.

 

[Samej Jangir]

Did you miss the fact that Admiral here thinks the SSBNs in the past were relevant only coz they were supposed to travel as close to the target as possible to fire ICBMs ? It probably read / thought CCMs here instead of ICBMs , hence it follows it is also dyslexic apart from being autistic.

During cold war, USSR SSBNs were used to carry ICBM to Pacific & Atlantic oceans to cover USA, Australia & EU countries from closer range. USA SSBNs were used to go to Atlantic & North Pacific to cover USSR & China with ICBM. Since China, USA & USSR were huge countries, they needed ICBMs to cover each other even from relatively near their shores.

Also, in context of Arihant, it carries K15 missiles with range of 1000km which is a joke. What is the point of building SSBN with so much cost to just carry a tiny 1000km missile? Moreover, if Arihant goes to Atlantic or Pacific, how can it get navigation signals or command from India to launch missiles? Unlike USA, USSR, India does not have overseas bases to send signals. India does not even have global GPS to provide navigation

 

[Samej Jangir]

What are the various reactors installed in Arighat etc. I read somewhere it goes upto 190mw BARC one (same as Akula I think, that's why lease). Can two of those be fitted into a 60k Tonne carrier .

The problem with N carriers is that they are extremely difficult and slow to maintain & repair. If the enemy somehow manages to hit it with mines, missiles or fishing boats or gets damaged any other way, it would take months to repair them. A reactor takes 1 month to shut down & cool off & another 2-3 months to restart to full capacity. This is very bad during major wars as it will lead to long downtimes. Diesel ships can stop & start instantaneously & are also safe to handle due to no threats of radiation which means much lower downtimes.

USA, EU countries need N-carriers as their wars are mostly in shores of Asia, Africa & have large network of maritime bases. But for other countries, it is not practical. This is why even Russia, China have diesel carriers.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Also, in context of Arihant, it carries K15 missiles with range of 1000km which is a joke. What is the point of building SSBN with so much cost to just carry a tiny 1000km missile? Moreover, if Arihant goes to Atlantic or Pacific, how can it get navigation signals or command from India to launch missiles? Unlike USA, USSR, India does not have overseas bases to send signals. India does not even have global GPS to provide navigation

arihant is a tech demonstrator the real ssbns are s4 and s5 while arihant was a stepping stone
also arihant was armed with k15/k4 while k15 is for pakistan thus the smaller 1000-1500km range while k4 is originally meant for china with 400km of range
ps india aint gonna go and fight in america anytime soon our adversaries are purely china and pakistan

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

We have seen how India regularly understated its capabilities. So, I would not be surprised if Arihant actually ends up being SSNs instead of SSBNs.

what i personally think is Arihant would become a ssgn after considerable number of s5 are launched ssgn are important in a conventional war and they are quite important too
eg the yasen class of Russia carrier 32 p-800 (8000tonne displacement)

 

[Samej Jangir]

arihant is a tech demonstrator the real ssbns are s4 and s5 while arihant was a stepping stone
also arihant was armed with k15/k4 while k15 is for pakistan thus the smaller 1000-1500km range while k4 is originally meant for china with 400km of range
ps india aint gonna go and fight in america anytime soon our adversaries are purely china and pakistan

India does not need a submarine launched missile for Pakistan. Pakistan is just next doors and any missile from India itself will be enough. Even China is just next doors and it does not make sense to send submarine to South China sea (which is part of Pacific) as there is no Indian GPS there & relying on foreign GPS is dangerous.

Arihant was designed for K15. Suddenly fitting a K4 missile will need expansion of the tubes, change in centre of gravity etc which is very difficult. This is why I am saying Arihant is functionally useless

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

India does not need a submarine launched missile for Pakistan. Pakistan is just next doors and any missile from India itself will be enough. Even China is just next doors and it does not make sense to send submarine to South China sea (which is part of Pacific) as there is no Indian GPS there & relying on foreign GPS is dangerous.

Arihant was designed for K15. Suddenly fitting a K4 missile will need expansion of the tubes, change in centre of gravity etc which is very difficult. This is why I am saying Arihant is functionally useless

man india does need submarines to strike both pakistan and china from different positions and nuclear submarines does exactly thati dont think you understant the roles of ssbn correctly you should study that
an ssbn cannot be detected while a missile tel may be visible and an agni5 fired from any region in india would be all over chinese radars so we need an alternative path to fire where the chinks and pakis doesnt expect from

also see it can house either 3 k-15 or 1k4 slbm man

 

[Samej Jangir]

man india does need submarines to strike both pakistan and china from different positions and nuclear submarines does exactly thati dont think you understant the roles of ssbn correctly you should study that
an ssbn cannot be detected while a missile tel may be visible and an agni5 fired from any region in india would be all over chinese radars so we need an alternative path to fire where the chinks and pakis doesnt expect from

View attachment 250167
also see it can house either 3 k-15 or 1k4 slbm man

Even SSBN have to fire missiles and once missile is fired, it will be over all the radars. Moreover, Chinese radars are more focused on their Eastern borders due to high tension with USA & allies like Taiwan, Korea, Japan.

Also how will TELs be visible? They are shaped as container trucks, not like some military weapons. Also, there are many underground silos hidden inside dummy structures like empty buildings near mountain borders which can never be detected. The measly 4-6 missiles from SSBNs are nothing compared to 1000s of missiles that can be launched from land.

Firing from different angle is pointless, especially to Pakistan unless India is trying to stealthily attack and then deny its involvement

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Even SSBN have to fire missiles and once missile is fired, it will be over all the radars. Moreover, Chinese radars are more focused on their Eastern borders due to high tension with USA & allies like Taiwan, Korea, Japan.

Also how will TELs be visible? They are shaped as container trucks, not like some military weapons. Also, there are many underground silos hidden inside dummy structures like empty buildings near mountain borders which can never be detected. The measly 4-6 missiles from SSBNs are nothing compared to 1000s of missiles that can be launched from land.

Firing from different angle is pointless, especially to Pakistan unless India is trying to stealthily attack and then deny its involvement

so by your logic ssbn are good for nothing for us ?
4 k4 can cripple chinese or pakistani finantial centers royally
either ways we only have 120-140 warheads so limited missile can be pointed too

and yea launching stealthly is also a big advantage sats cant watch the subs while they can watch possible silo and launch sites

 

[Blood+]

so by your logic ssbn are good for nothing for us ?
4 k4 can cripple chinese or pakistani finantial centers royally
either ways we only have 120-140 warheads so limited missile can be pointed too

and yea launching stealthly is also a big advantage sats cant watch the subs while they can watch possible silo and launch sites

He does have a point though. I mean, do we really need SSBVs when both our enemies happen to be our next door neighbors??

 

[Gandaberunda]

SSBNs are for nuclear deterrence and used as last resort to destroy enemy. SSBNs give us second strike capability in case we got nuclear attacked. Even in case of war SSBNs are hidden and won’t take any active part in war. Also we don’t need SSBN to cripple Pakistan. Pak can be easily destroyed by using our aircraft carriers. We need SSN to attack China and we aren’t going beyond malacca straights to wage a war on China

 

[Blood+]

SSBNs are for nuclear deterrence and used as last resort to destroy enemy. SSBNs give us second strike capability in case we got nuclear attacked. Even in case of war SSBNs are hidden and won’t take any active part in war. Also we don’t need SSBN to cripple Pakistan. Pak can be easily destroyed by using our aircraft carriers. We need SSN to attack China and we aren’t going behind malacca straights to wage a war on China

You can achieve the same by constructing underground missile silos within the Himalayan ranges.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

He does have a point though. I mean, do we really need SSBVs when both our enemies happen to be our next door neighbors??

for pakistan we may not but for china we do need ssbn
firstly major chinese traffic hubs are in the western side so only thing that could reach there is agni5 total flight time of agni 5 is 1130 seconds (18 minutes) which is big
in case a nuke is launched against delhi and mumbai etc our best option is to launch a nuke where the enemy doesnt expect it from
a silo can be spotted from sat images and constructing silos are also a long process with digging ground and all which could be seen by sats too
once silo is spotted its basically gonna be taken out quite quickly by conventional strike by the enemy while ssbn its immensly hard to detect and to counter it you have to have a big number of ssn and surface ships

also ssbn could be converted to ssgn so it can perform big conventinal strikes too