Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Tshering22]

I agree with that TEDBF won't be coming as soon as it touted to be coming but in my opinion, a more Realistic timeline for the First TEDBF will be around the year 2030-31,The First TEDBF will be delivered in this time.
HAL had already mastered how to make a 4th + Generation Aircraft with experience gained in the LCA Project. Also, TEDBF is a naval Aircraft, which will be Able to take-off and land from and on the Deck of an aircraft carrier. For this , Experience has already been gained in the naval LCA program which is very important and hence TEDBF will come much quicker than you think. I have given a realistic timeline for the 1st prototype to arrive latest by 2026 and the First unit to enter service in 2032 at most!

The Initial batches I believe will be using Imported GE engines from America. Later an Indigenous Engine will be used.

Most probably UTTAM AESA RADAR will be used in TEDBF because it would have arrived by that Time, I am not sure about the EW suite though, it could be Mayavi or DRDO/DARE unified suite)

For Antishipping role, We could Arm TEDBF with Brahmos Supersonic antiship cruise missile, more preferably I am taking about the Brahmos NG Variant.

Navy says that they want to buy around 50 Aircrafts,maybe they might increase the Order to 60+(a possibility to be honest)

Maybe. I agree with you on this part though

If only you were the TEDBF project director or the Defence secretary.... . I like your ambitious timelines, but that's too optimistic. TEDBF being a new generation jet that is as new as the AMCA will most likely have the Indian/JV engine commonality with it. No way are they going to just let the order for the new engine be restricted to AMCA alone when they have another twin-engine fighter jet on the drawing board.

Also, 50+ is not a good enough amount to achieve economies of scale. Tejas was a one-off that the government allowed, but it seems that the government won't tolerate any more such slipups. Navy would be smart to push for AMCA-Navy which would reduce the overall costs due to the economies of scale and maintenance inventory commonality. Unless of course, Cochin Shipyard starts offering aircraft carriers to third countries on which we could offer TEDBF as exports.

Our navy is not like American one to field a large enough aviation wing that could make the unit cost reasonable. Either they'd have to go for 100+ of them or HAL will have to figure out a way to start exporting them by the dozens from now itself, unless they want their project to get canned midway.

 

[FactsPlease]

Come on, man. TEDBF is nowhere right now. Let's be realistic about its operational timeline. There is easily going to be another 1-2 years of discussions. After that another 10-12 years for development + testing and then serial production. Even if HAL has mastered 4.5 generation jet-making, let's see some of the questions here:

1. Which engine?
2. Which radar & EW? (Since Uttam & Mayavi EW are more current than future)
3. What weapons package? Astra Mk2/3 is for air, what about anti-ship domestic options?
4. How many firm orders?

Even the Navy is scratching their heads right now. Do not expect the first TEDBF in Navy's paintjob before 2037-38 (unless we do a China).

The MiGs would be splashing into the sea by then.

Agreed, and I'm afraid to expect worse news.
Seems now IN want everyone ONLY looks at the shining and splendid Vikrant ONLY, but NOT a single notice about the air wing putting on it. Mig-29k will be, embarrassingly, the only solution when Vikrant commissioned earliest 2022/23. And this embarrassment may last minimum 6~7 years before, anything you pick, F/A-18 to Rafale to NLCA, come to rescue. And don't be surprised for quite a while IN will also remain silent about the operation commonality between its shore-based and carrier squads.

 

[Tshering22]

Agreed, and I'm afraid to expect worse news.
Seems now IN want everyone ONLY looks at the shining and splendid Vikrant ONLY, but NOT a single notice about the air wing putting on it. Mig-29k will be, embarrassingly, the only solution when Vikrant commissioned earliest 2022/23. And this embarrassment may last minimum 6~7 years before, anything you pick, F/A-18 to Rafale to NLCA, come to rescue. And don't be surprised for quite a while IN will also remain silent about the operation commonality between its shore-based and carrier squads.

NLCA is more of a technology demonstrator project than anything else. At best, if someone asks for a carrier-based trainer, then that could be a one-off export. However, the experience was rich from it and therefore, that will go into TEDBF. The Navy has the smallest budget in the entire force structure and cannot start copying the USN just like that.

Either they get to ask 50+ Rafale Ms to be made in India, or put the entire funding in TEDBF, go on bent knees to the PMO and ask them to compel HAL to churn it out come what may in the next 5-8 years (not happening), or silently agree with the N-AMCA variant to make things easier for HAL.

 

[Super Flanker]

If only you were the TEDBF project director or the Defence secretary.... . I like your ambitious timelines, but that's too optimistic. TEDBF being a new generation jet that is as new as the AMCA will most likely have the Indian/JV engine commonality with it. No way are they going to just let the order for the new engine be restricted to AMCA alone when they have another twin-engine fighter jet on the drawing board.

Also, 50+ is not a good enough amount to achieve economies of scale. Tejas was a one-off that the government allowed, but it seems that the government won't tolerate any more such slipups. Navy would be smart to push for AMCA-Navy which would reduce the overall costs due to the economies of scale and maintenance inventory commonality. Unless of course, Cochin Shipyard starts offering aircraft carriers to third countries on which we could offer TEDBF as exports.

Our navy is not like American one to field a large enough aviation wing that could make the unit cost reasonable. Either they'd have to go for 100+ of them or HAL will have to figure out a way to start exporting them by the dozens from now itself, unless they want their project to get canned midway.

Agree with you mate.
Nothing much to say here.

 

[Super Flanker]

If only you were the TEDBF project director or the Defence secretary.... . I like your ambitious timelines, but that's too optimistic. TEDBF being a new generation jet that is as new as the AMCA will most likely have the Indian/JV engine commonality with it. No way are they going to just let the order for the new engine be restricted to AMCA alone when they have another twin-engine fighter jet on the drawing board

Correct.

Also, 50+ is not a good enough amount to achieve economies of scale. Tejas was a one-off that the government allowed, but it seems that the government won't tolerate any more such slipups. Navy would be smart to push for AMCA-Navy which would reduce the overall costs due to the economies of scale and maintenance inventory commonality. Unless of course, Cochin Shipyard starts offering aircraft carriers to third countries on which we could offer TEDBF as exports.

No Denying this.

Our navy is not like American one to field a large enough aviation wing that could make the unit cost reasonable. Either they'd have to go for 100+ of them or HAL will have to figure out a way to start exporting them by the dozens from now itself, unless they want their project to get canned midway

I never implied that Indian Navy is like US Navy sir. That would be a foolish Comparison. US Navy has the 2nd Largest airforce in the world.
Indian aviation wing is nowhere near that of US navy at all. Indian Navy should place an Order for atleast 80-100 TEDBF units in my opinion.
50 would make up the Carrier based Squadrons and 50 could be used as Offshore Squadron like how Indian Navy has Stationed MIG-29s in INS Hansa, like That we could station atleast 1-2 Squadron of TEDBF at max in Goa, not all of them. And try and station them at other Naval bases too. In my opinion TEDBF will have a lot of Export Potential, it will be a very good option.

 

[IndianHawk]

NLCA is more of a technology demonstrator project than anything else. At best, if someone asks for a carrier-based trainer, then that could be a one-off export. However, the experience was rich from it and therefore, that will go into TEDBF. The Navy has the smallest budget in the entire force structure and cannot start copying the USN just like that.

Either they get to ask 50+ Rafale Ms to be made in India, or put the entire funding in TEDBF, go on bent knees to the PMO and ask them to compel HAL to churn it out come what may in the next 5-8 years (not happening), or silently agree with the N-AMCA variant to make things easier for HAL.

Tedbf is not a HAL product. It is ADA product as of now and once development is complete private sector may be involved for production along with HAL.

Demand for tedbf came from navy itself when ADA was insisting upon single engine naval lca mk2. Funding will also come mostly from navy budget . So if navy doesn't want it it will go nowhere.

And if they go ahead with tedbf they have everything in place .

Engine f414 , radar uttam aesa , ew suite borrowed from MWF with maws , drwr obogs , panaromic cockpit . All internal components can be directly borrowed from MWF and su30 upgrade programs. Weapons suite will also be similar.

Anti ship missiles can be harpoon ( already mated with elta radar in jaguars) or exocet/ scalp from France untill bramhos NG , rudram 3 variants come along.

With all these things common with other ongoing programs this should be a rather fast development.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Yes!
Probably!

Was talking about myself
Good to know that no catches were missed

 

[Super Flanker]

Was talking about myself
Good to know that no catches were missed

,,
Ok

 

[Super Flanker]

Is he credible?

I am not sure whether he is a credible person.

 

[Super Flanker]

@Tshering22 @Hariharan_kalarikkal.

Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

He is the reason Indian Navy's LHD program got cancelled. &OPV's he has also let down many foreign customers who may not even think about ordering ships from India again

defenceforumindia.com

 

[BON PLAN]

France Set To Offer Barracuda Nuclear Submarines To India

France Set To Offer Barracuda Nuclear Submarines To India

French Defence Minister to visit New Delhi for talks with Rajnath Singh on December 17, , French Defence Minister, rajnath singh

www.businessworld.in

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Apologies if this has already been posted earlier. This is a very informative and insightful but small documentary on the 22nd Missile Vessel Squadron of the Indian Navy.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

The Second of the Project 15B Destroyer of the @IndianNavy, to be commissioned next year (2022) as Mormugao sails for her maiden Sea Trials.
Incidentally, it is the 60th Anniversary of Goa Liberation Day

 

[Akula]

The Second of the Project 15B Destroyer of the @IndianNavy, to be commissioned next year (2022) as Mormugao sails for her maiden Sea Trials.
Incidentally, it is the 60th Anniversary of Goa Liberation DayView attachment 126465View attachment 126466View attachment 126467

Two exhausts take too much space on the ships. Is that due to engine configuration?

 

[Lonewolf]

Two exhausts take too much space on the ships. Is that due to engine configuration?

Saw this arrangement in other ships too ,but there was one prominent exhaust and other smaller exhaust

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

@Gessler any comments from IN about using "Inverted bows" on any future ships.

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler any comments from IN about using "Inverted bows" on any future ships.

What are you talking about? Never heard that analogy before "inverted bows".

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

What are you talking about? Never heard that analogy before "inverted bows".

no issue.

 

[swapcv]

@Gessler any comments from IN about using "Inverted bows" on any future ships.

Never heard any such talk about any vessel using that bow. Opinion on the use of Inverted bows is quite divided as there are pros and cons towards its usage, mostly related to stability, seakeeping and hull volume. Indian Navy will probably not use any such design for now unless there's someone at DND who does know how to best utilize it in future designs.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Again apologies if it’s already posted before.