Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[johnj]

I understand these things. But you are assuming that we will have complete visibility on the locations of PN fleet.
My fear is that a small 500 tonne Azmat class vessel may sneak in close our shoreline and attack some important ship or ground installation with their missiles, similar to what we did during operation trident. Now with modern missiles, they can fire from 300 km and still hit something.

I don't think we have a way to counter this.

So we must have at least the capability to do this to pakistanis.

While our CBG is anchored off Karachi coast, a small ship to pay a visit to Gwadar port and deactivate it.

Better to consider Ground based AD s/m supported by AEW aircraft.
IN having P8i, Sea guardians, other MALE surveillance drones, etc which can easily search a large area, and give data to nearby vessels or CBG or airbases which can destroy the PN vessel before it target any of our assets/bases etc.

a small 500 tonne Azmat class vessel may sneak in close our shoreline

totally impossible - IN will destroy before it enter close our shoreline.[wartime]

 

[gslv markIII]

Tomorrow we will be laying the keel of the "stitched ship"!! The idea is to recreate a 4th century AD Indian merchant ship and sail it on ancient routes from Kalinga to SE Asia. Being done by Indian navy & Culture Ministry. Here is the preview :

View attachment 222119

They are using Anjili wood & a Kerala boatwright is the chief architect. So it's mostly Kerala traditional boatbuilding on a larger scale.

I expected this lol.

 

[Azaad]

India speeds up work on local marine gas turbine production

There is a sense of urgency to create a domestic ecosystem for such equipment given the war in Ukraine that has impacted Zorya-Mashproekt, the primary supplier of the MGTs to the Indian Navy. According to officials aware of the development, public sector undertaking Bharat Heavy Electricals...

m.economictimes.com

 

[Defcon 1]

We are procuring NGMMCB (LR) which will give a cover of minimum 450km. It can be more than that. With so many satellites and coastal radars along with top notch surveillance they would be thinking before planning any of such thing.

This looks very unrealistic. If coastal radar and satellite coverage was enough to detect vessels in the sea, no one would build aircraft carriers, as they would become sitting ducks for carrier killer missiles.

But we know that Chinese have no reliable counter to US aircraft carriers in south china sea despite having superior satellite coverage than us.

So its not possible that, India, with inferior satellites compared to China, can detect a pakistani naval ship 1% of the of size of an aircraft carrier reliably.

 

[Defcon 1]

Better to consider Ground based AD s/m supported by AEW aircraft.
IN having P8i, Sea guardians, other MALE surveillance drones, etc which can easily search a large area, and give data to nearby vessels or CBG or airbases which can destroy the PN vessel before it target any of our assets/bases etc.

totally impossible - IN will destroy before it enter close our shoreline.[wartime]

How would you detect such a vessel is the question. Destroying it after detection is easy.

Using AEW aircraft is extremely costly compared to the cost of such vessels and still not reliable enough.

Babur has 900+ km range now, and it can be carried by Azmat class. How will you detect a vessel so far away?

 

[Azaad]

How would you detect such a vessel is the question. Destroying it after detection is easy.

Using AEW aircraft is extremely costly compared to the cost of such vessels and still not reliable enough.

Babur has 900+ km range now, and it can be carried by Azmat class. How will you detect a vessel so far away?

Check out on the GSAT -7 satellite application & it's utilization by the IN & these links -

Maritime security: a decade after 26/11 - Gateway House

Ten years after the 26/11 terror attack, India’s maritime security is much stronger, with better inter-agency coordination and improved security structure. The Indian Navy was made responsible for maritime security overall, but no fool-proof and unambiguous command and control structure exists...

www.gatewayhouse.in

.

https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/indias-coastal-security-an-assessment-45692/

 

[johnj]

How would you detect such a vessel is the question. Destroying it after detection is easy.
Using AEW aircraft is extremely costly compared to the cost of such vessels and still not reliable enough.

AEW is least expensive, if you consider other surveillance techniques.
Those vessels cost more than a low/mid tier AEW in cost and operation.
AEW is the most reliable and most advanced so far.
P8, US and Israel drones comes with next gen ai, which can identify a large no.of targets and 10 to 25x faster than other means, including spy sat.
If you want to search air, close space, then ground based systems are better, but if you want to search sea or earth surface, airborne systems better, if you want to search hostile & extremely dangerous zones, spy satellite is better option

Babur has 900+ km range now, and it can be carried by Azmat class. How will you detect a vessel so far away?

Babur 900+ km range give Azmat class vessel to fire missile from a safe/secure place, you can't spot or destroy such a vessel using other vessels
Better option to counter such a threat
1. High speed maritime bomber with powerful sensors
2. Spy satellite with LRAShM [bomber]
To defend such a threat, better to consider Ground based AD s/m supported by AEW aircraft.

Check out on the GSAT -7 satellite application & it's utilization by the IN & these links -

Maritime security: a decade after 26/11 - Gateway House

Ten years after the 26/11 terror attack, India’s maritime security is much stronger, with better inter-agency coordination and improved security structure. The Indian Navy was made responsible for maritime security overall, but no fool-proof and unambiguous command and control structure exists...

www.gatewayhouse.in

.

https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/indias-coastal-security-an-assessment-45692/

How this help to counter PN ship armed with long range cruise missile ??
From wiki - GSAT7 - communication sat ????

 

[Azaad]

How this help to counter PN ship armed with long range cruise missile ??
From wiki - GSAT7 - communication sat ????

The linked article describes the various measures undertaken to improve existing & creation of new new infrastructure, such as coastal radars, Automatic Identification System (AIS), National Command Control and Communication Network or NC3I, Joint Operations Centres and an information collation and fusion centre .


How exactly are all your land sea & airborne assets supposed to communicate with each other & exchange information seamlessly without a communication satellite ? You've a better solution ?

Slow moving , lumbering Turboprop / Turbojet AEW Maritime Aircraft flying near the coasts of the enemy country would be the first casualties during wartime whether flying over land or water which is especially true of Pakistan given our close proximity to it . Nor are the Reaper drones we're procuring adequate solutions to it.

In a wartime scenario you deploy all your offensive assets which in this case would be surface , sub surface & aerial assets including the Jaguar IMs with the MiG-29Ks escorting them to take out as many surface targets as you can in the littorals before moving to deep seas with your own shore based SAMs & other IADS assets serving as your defence against such potential threats.

As far as detection & tracking such littoral vessels which have the capability to launch the Babar camouflaged as it maybe amidst all the background clutter near its own coast , acquaint yourself with Indo Israeli collaborations in spy satellite tech like TECSAR & RISAT & the program to launch small spy satellites in LEO during conflicts in 48-72 hrs notice or less using mobile platforms to launch SSLVs .

 

[johnj]

The linked article describes the various measures undertaken to improve existing & creation of new new infrastructure, such as coastal radars, Automatic Identification System (AIS), National Command Control and Communication Network or NC3I, Joint Operations Centres and an information collation and fusion centre .


How exactly are all your land sea & airborne assets supposed to communicate with each other & exchange information seamlessly without a communication satellite ? You've a better solution ?

Slow moving , lumbering Turboprop / Turbojet AEW Maritime Aircraft flying near the coasts of the enemy country would be the first casualties during wartime whether flying over land or water which is especially true of Pakistan given our close proximity to it . Nor are the Reaper drones we're procuring adequate solutions to it.

In a wartime scenario you deploy all your offensive assets which in this case would be surface , sub surface & aerial assets including the Jaguar IMs with the MiG-29Ks escorting them to take out as many surface targets as you can in the littorals before moving to deep seas with your own shore based SAMs & other IADS assets serving as your defence against such potential threats.

As far as detection & tracking such littoral vessels which have the capability to launch the Babar camouflaged as it maybe amidst all the background clutter near its own coast , acquaint yourself with Indo Israeli collaborations in spy satellite tech like TECSAR & RISAT & the program to launch small spy satellites in LEO during conflicts in 48-72 hrs notice or less using mobile platforms to launch SSLVs .

GSAT7 is a communication sat
I think you totally missed the question, Q is about Azmat class vessel launching a attack or sneak into Indian costal areas, not a entire Naval warfare

coastal radars, Automatic Identification System (AIS), National Command Control and Communication Network or NC3I, Joint Operations Centres and an information collation and fusion centre .

COSTAL RADARS - how far it case see ??
without airborne or space asset, these things struggle to spot

even CBG use AEW.
Form wiki link
Integrated Coastal Surveillance System
Also there is news about,
India, France plan satellite surveillance of ships

 

[Azaad]

GSAT7 is a communication sat
I think you totally missed the question, Q is about Azmat class vessel launching a attack or sneak into Indian costal areas, not a entire Naval warfare

View attachment 222310


COSTAL RADARS - how far it case see ??
without airborne or space asset, these things struggle to spot
View attachment 222306
even CBG use AEW.
Form wiki link
Integrated Coastal Surveillance System
Also there is news about,
India, France plan satellite surveillance of ships

Do you understand simple English or do you want everything spelt down to the last syllable ?

How exactly are all your land sea & airborne assets supposed to communicate with each other & exchange information seamlessly without a communication satellite ? You've a better solution ?

From the link you've shared .

Satellite imageryEdit

The Sindhu Netra (Hindi: "Eye of the Sea") microsatellite was developed to monitor the activities of military and merchant navy ships in the Indian Ocean region, and is capable of automatically identifying warships and merchant ships.[43] Hyderabad-based Research Centre Imarat, a division of the DRDO, awarded a ₹2.2 crore (US$280,000) contract to faculty members and students of PES University, Bangalore to develop the satellite in collaboration with the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).[44] Sindhu Netra was successfully launched onboard PSLV-C51 from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre in Sriharikota, Andhra Pradesh on 28 February 2021.[45]

Integrated Coastal Surveillance System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are our CBGs going to operate in the case of Pakistan ? Do our CBGs carry AEWs like the E-3 ? Didn't you read what I wrote with respect to operating AEWs over land or seas of one's neighbour with whom one shares contiguous land borders & the seas during wartime & the dangers such slow moving aircraft would face ? Ditto for drones .

Add the French second in the list to the Israelis .

 

[johnj]

Do you understand simple English or do you want everything spelt down to the last syllable ?



From the link you've shared .

Integrated Coastal Surveillance System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are our CBGs going to operate in the case of Pakistan ? Do our CBGs carry AEWs like the E-3 ? Didn't you read what I wrote with respect to operating AEWs over land or seas of one's neighbour with whom one shares contiguous land borders & the seas during wartime & the dangers such slow moving aircraft would face ? Ditto for drones .

Add the French second in the list to the Israelis .

I already know GSAT7 is a communication sat, no need for explanication
I think you underestimate IN CBG capability

AEW&C

A carrier battle group consists of aircraft carrier, destroyers, submarine, frigates, and support vessels, etc. All the ship give top priority to protect aircraft carrier.
Aircraft carrier launch aircraft from a safe distance, and these aircraft are responsible for main offensive role. Such a carrier battle group can strike target 500~1000km away without endangering CBG.
No warship can strike beyond 150~200km without early warning/target co ordination.
IN always use CBG to attack PN first, unless/until IN gets LR LACM
AEW operation = It depends on multiple conditions, it is always better to send a unmanned AEW before sending a task force into unknown hostile territory
AEW&C always/mainly choose to fly protected and secure zones
The main job of MPA, AEW, AEWCS etc to avoid surprise attack from enemies and these planes can easily enter enemy territories once air dominance is achieved over enemy
For hostile neighbor with whom one shares contiguous land borders & the seas, AEW always fly close to border, both wartime and peace time. what you except ?? AEW fly away from conflict/war zone ??
AEW easily become target if there is no fighter jet to protect it
I think you confused with E2 and E3

E2 used for carrier defense AEW&C

E3, battlefield AWACS

 

[Azaad]

I already know GSAT7 is a communication sat, no need for explanication
I think you underestimate IN CBG capability
View attachment 222323
AEW&C

A carrier battle group consists of aircraft carrier, destroyers, submarine, frigates, and support vessels, etc. All the ship give top priority to protect aircraft carrier.
Aircraft carrier launch aircraft from a safe distance, and these aircraft are responsible for main offensive role. Such a carrier battle group can strike target 500~1000km away without endangering CBG.
No warship can strike beyond 150~200km without early warning/target co ordination.
IN always use CBG to attack PN first, unless/until IN gets LR LACM
AEW operation = It depends on multiple conditions, it is always better to send a unmanned AEW before sending a task force into unknown hostile territory
AEW&C always/mainly choose to fly protected and secure zones
The main job of MPA, AEW, AEWCS etc to avoid surprise attack from enemies and these planes can easily enter enemy territories once air dominance is achieved over enemy
For hostile neighbor with whom one shares contiguous land borders & the seas, AEW always fly close to border, both wartime and peace time. what you except ?? AEW fly away from conflict/war zone ??
AEW easily become target if there is no fighter jet to protect it

So besides reiterating what I've stated earlier in a, roundabout way, except for the CBG component
what else have you done ? The reason we MAY NOT use the CBG, IMHO, is coz there's no need for it with the MKIs armed with the Brahmos primed to target any & every of their surface assets at sea.

Then you've the Jaguar IMs for a similar role / secondary role, not to mention the MiG-29K escorting them or engaging aerial assets of the PN or PAF designated for such duties, where the MiG-29 could well take off from Karwar or from the IAC located a few dozen kms outside Karwar instead of deep inside the IOR.

Coming to the AEW, besides the P-8i, what exactly do we have by way of Maritime Surveillance & Tracking, unless you're including the Kamovs, other hptrs & Dormiers?

Using the P-8i EXCLUSIVELY for surface surveillance off the coast of Pakistan is complete downgrade of it's role & capacities & something I wouldn't put beyond the IN given what else but our resource crunch . Now before you get into your perennial "gotcha" mode, the P-8i would definitely see action against Pakistan given their upcoming pending submarine inductions .

I think you confused with E2 and E3
View attachment 222329
E2 used for carrier defense AEW&C
View attachment 222328
E3, battlefield AWACS

Typo. I meant the E-2 .

 

[NutCracker]

HEADS UP-

Sea Guardian lease expiring on Jan-24.
Lease extension is a must till deal and delivery date is finalized

 

[NutCracker]

I don't think a 500Ton boat can escape MQ9B and P8i flying in tandem. (obvio since matter would be hot already if porks have decided to come and die).

Either ground batteries or anti surface SU30 can take care of that.

 

[johnj]

So besides reiterating what I've stated earlier in a, roundabout way, except for the CBG component
what else have you done ? The reason we MAY NOT use the CBG, IMHO, is coz there's no need for it with the MKIs armed with the Brahmos primed to target any & every of their surface assets at sea.

Then you've the Jaguar IMs for a similar role / secondary role, not to mention the MiG-29K escorting them or engaging aerial assets of the PN or PAF designated for such duties, where the MiG-29 could well take off from Karwar or from the IAC located a few dozen kms outside Karwar instead of deep inside the IOR.

Before posting read from first post

In the case of IAF, I'm guessing IAF replaced jaguar IM with MKI
Yes, IN can also use mig, but mki is better due to its range and powerful radar

Coming to the AEW, besides the P-8i, what exactly do we have by way of Maritime Surveillance & Tracking, unless you're including the Kamovs, other hptrs & Dormiers?

LOL, You are the one who posted

Using the P-8i EXCLUSIVELY for surface surveillance off the coast of Pakistan is complete downgrade of it's role & capacities & something I wouldn't put beyond the IN given what else but our resource crunch . Now before you get into your perennial "gotcha" mode, the P-8i would definitely see action against Pakistan given their upcoming pending submarine inductions .

What total nonsenses are you talking about ??????

 

[Azaad]

Before posting read from first post
View attachment 222334

View attachment 222336

In the case of IAF, I'm guessing IAF replaced jaguar IM with MKI
Yes, IN can also use mig, but mki is better due to its range and powerful radar

LOL, You are the one who posted
View attachment 222337

What total nonsenses are you talking about ??????

View attachment 222335

You know what ? Had I known you're so dense I wouldn't have engaged you in the first place. Don't quote me in future .

 

[johnj]

I don't think a 500Ton boat can escape MQ9B and P8i flying in tandem. (obvio since matter would be hot already if porks have decided to come and die).

Either ground batteries or anti surface SU30 can take care of that.

yes, since you got the point - (obvio since matter would be hot already if porks have decided to come and die). they only consider SSK for the job

 

[Azaad]

I don't think a 500Ton boat can escape MQ9B and P8i flying in tandem. (obvio since matter would be hot already if porks have decided to come and die).

Either ground batteries or anti surface SU30 can take care of that.

The issue isn't the PNS Azmat per se . It's the naval version of the Babar CM or Harbah allegedly 900 kms in range on board the Azmat class of boats which is the issue .

Consider a scenario where a couple of Azmat class boats are sitting some 600 -800 kms from Jamnagar / Mumbai / Karwar / Goa , the fact that they'd try to get into densely trafficked SLOCs to camouflage their presence & you see the problem ?

You could argue that in case of a war international commercial shipping would naturally tend to avoid such hot spots & that's a fair point but it's the sheer range of the armament which in this case is a sub sonic CM which should alert us to the possibility of not being complacent.

 

[binayak95]

How would you detect such a vessel is the question. Destroying it after detection is easy.

Using AEW aircraft is extremely costly compared to the cost of such vessels and still not reliable enough.

Babur has 900+ km range now, and it can be carried by Azmat class. How will you detect a vessel so far away?

Thus the IN's urgency in acquiring MQ9B Sea Guardians

 

[binayak95]

The issue isn't the PNS Azmat per se . It's the naval version of the Babar CM or Harbah allegedly 900 kms in range on board the Azmat class of boats which is the issue .

Consider a scenario where a couple of Azmat class boats are sitting some 600 -800 kms from Jamnagar / Mumbai / Karwar / Goa , the fact that they'd try to get into densely trafficked SLOCs to camouflage their presence & you see the problem ?

You could argue that in case of a war international commercial shipping would naturally tend to avoid such hot spots & that's a fair point but it's the sheer range of the armament which in this case is a sub sonic CM which should alert us to the possibility of not being complacent.

The first and foremost defence against a rerun of Op Python and Op Trident on Indian bases is intelligence.

thus the IN's mission ready deployments, the IOR IFC in Delhi and the near constant presence of some or the other LRMR aircraft on both seaboards.

Not to mention the whole gamut of ELINT/IMGINT/SIGINT stuff that keeps an eagle eye on all vessels in IOR.

They say that no sooner does a commodore sneeze in Karachi, then the IN has his prescription