Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Love Charger]

India has enough to overwhelm Pakistan only during an all out war and if india doesn’t have to worry about China opening up angler front to the east.

India spends more on pensions than Pakistan does on CAPEX, for the last 10 years Indian defence as a %of GDP has been in decline and the result is india is militarily very weak for its economic size

Classic mistake we always make .
You can figure it out from the last line of your post

 

[abingdonboy]

Classic mistake we always make .
You can figure it out from the last line of your post

It’s one of the biggest weaknesses of democratic governance- Indian leadership is consumed by domestic affairs and electioneering which for india just means mammoth doles and welfare schemes. CCP has had a 2050 goal it has been working for for decades, Indian leaders are on 1-2 year cycles just trying to get through to the next major set of elections. There’s no votes in strategic strength.

it feels like India’s plans are always just to downplay any crisis and middle through till the next guy takes over and the Chinese are more than happy to take advantage of it. Look at the LAC situation. India is only pushing for talks because they are cheap and buy time, China is more than happy to dig in and use the time to build up their capabilities.

even today india isn’t investing in the kind of strategic assets that would provide deterrence to China like thermonuclear weapons, MIRVS, HGVs, space based assets etc etc. it’s easier to beat the chest and just hope the other side doesn’t call your bluff. It worked with the Pakis because they are equally as myopic but the Chinese are an entirely different player and they will play the game against you.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

It’s one of the biggest weaknesses of democratic governance- Indian leadership is consumed by domestic affairs and electioneering which for india just means mammoth doles and welfare schemes. CCP has had a 2050 goal it has been working for for decades, Indian leaders are on 1-2 year cycles just trying to get through to the next major set of elections. There’s no votes in strategic strength.

it feels like India’s plans are always just to downplay any crisis and middle through till the next guy takes over and the Chinese are more than happy to take advantage of it. Look at the LAC situation. India is only pushing for talks because they are cheap and buy time, China is more than happy to dig in and use the time to build up their capabilities.

even today india isn’t investing in the kind of strategic assets that would provide deterrence to China like thermonuclear weapons, MIRVS, HGVs, space based assets etc etc. it’s easier to beat the chest and just hope the other side doesn’t call your bluff. It worked with the Pakis because they are equally as myopic but the Chinese are an entirely different player and they will play the game against you.

What's the Chinese end goal regarding LAC? Gobble up all of Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh bit by bit? At the current rate they're grabbing territory here and there, but what are they ultimately trying to achieve, say 10-15 years down the line?

If they want the "5 fingers" as they refer to it, they can't achieve it without outright war.

 

[Love Charger]

What's the Chinese end goal regarding LAC? Gobble up all of Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh bit by bit? At the current rate they're grabbing territory here and there, but what are they ultimately trying to achieve, say 10-15 years down the line?

If they want the "5 fingers" as they refer to it, they can't achieve it without outright war.

And if thye start a outright war , do you think we can contend with thier poodle pakistan behind our back ?

 

[jai jaganath]

What's the Chinese end goal regarding LAC? Gobble up all of Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh bit by bit? At the current rate they're grabbing territory here and there, but what are they ultimately trying to achieve, say 10-15 years down the line?

If they want the "5 fingers" as they refer to it, they can't achieve it without outright war.

Problem is can we defend ourselves against all out war plus Pakistani faction
Answer is no we can't if both fight with their considerable strength they can bring us on negotiation table and who knows after that
Everything is nice bcoz China doesn't want to lose men but if that sense goes then things will go deep south if we consider our attitude which won't change until the extinction of this world

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Problem is can we defend ourselves against all out war plus Pakistani faction
Answer is no we can't if both fight with their considerable strength they can bring us on negotiation table and who knows after that
Everything is nice bcoz China doesn't want to lose men but if that sense goes then things will go deep south if we consider our attitude which won't change until the extinction of this world

I would be funny in a gallows humor sort of way if India gets its ass kicked in a 2 front war. Decades of complacency and lack of rational planning has to have a cost some day. I feel we will have an actual 2 front war some time this decade. Let's see how it works out. The Feb 27th episode proved that our conventional superiority isn't nearly what members here or the public used to think.

I feel a real humiliation which the govt can't spin or hide will be an impetus to get out act together in defence.

 

[skunk works]

I would be funny in a gallows humor sort of way if India gets its ass kicked in a 2 front war. Decades of complacency and lack of rational planning has to have a cost some day. I feel we will have an actual 2 front war some time this decade. Let's see how it works out. The Feb 27th episode proved that our conventional superiority isn't nearly what members here or the public used to think.

I feel a real humiliation which the govt can't spin or hide will be an impetus to get out act together in defence.

Problem in India is they never publicly reveal or publish or debate the reasons for blunders.

Instead flowery historical myths are created- like 'Nehruji stabbed in the back type.'

CDS dies in mysterious crash, no public inquiry.
Blue on blue kill on 27 Feb, no answer as to why the IFF was switched off.
Why was Kargil infiltration not noticed for MONTHS.
Why was an ancient MIG 21 without an EW pod the only aircraft available that day to intercept an incoming strike formation?

I could go on and on. Mythical fog is built around clear blunders, lessons are not learned.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Do not confuse birthing rights in peacetime with active war situations. It's one thing for Sri Lanka to host a chinese ship in peacetime and completely another to allows Lanka port to be used in active war against India that will invite an Indian attack on their port. Other then porkies no one in entire asia is foolish enough to do that.

All these ports around India will be sitting ducks in a war since India can at will destroy there birthing facilities .

Current chinese force levels are not enough for them to push USA out of Taiwan straits and break out of second Island chain. It will be a long time when they will be a challenge in Indian Ocean.

They are a threat as surveillance but bases also are helpful to host and station special ops and so on.....its foolish for India to allow these things but what can you do when other country is 2nd to US capabilities and we are still focussed on "Secularism and caste equations". We need to invest in asymmetrical capabilities like coastal missile batteries with ER and destroyers and small missile boats in numbers with at least 3 carriers just to sustain their minimal might in coming decade or 2

 

[omaebakabaka]

Problem in India is they never publicly reveal or publish or debate the reasons for blunders.

Instead flowery historical myths are created- like 'Nehruji stabbed in the back type.'

CDS dies in mysterious crash, no public inquiry.
Blue on blue kill on 27 Feb, no answer as to why the IFF was switched off.
Why was Kargil infiltration not noticed for MONTHS.
Why was an ancient MIG 21 without an EW pod the only aircraft available that day to intercept an incoming strike formation?

I could go on and on. Mythical fog is built around clear blunders, lessons are not learned.

Reveal? How do you know what is revealed is truth?

As long as good people are protected in system, these things should not be measure at micro level on everything. Macros indicators are the best signs whether leadership is corrupted or only interested in their personal preservation

 

[IndianHawk]

I would be funny in a gallows humor sort of way if India gets its ass kicked in a 2 front war. Decades of complacency and lack of rational planning has to have a cost some day. I feel we will have an actual 2 front war some time this decade. Let's see how it works out. The Feb 27th episode proved that our conventional superiority isn't nearly what members here or the public used to think.

I feel a real humiliation which the govt can't spin or hide will be an impetus to get out act together in defence.

There will be no such thing.
While it is correct we have blundered in our military procurements our enemies have done even worse blunder over previous decades.

Porkies have destroyed their economy while trying to maintain parity with India . Now they don't have money to even conduct regular exercises forget about any war. They are begging IMF so that they can continue to import oil . Another blunder they committed in cosying up to china to encircle India resulted in reduction of usa aid and now they are forced to buy j10 while horrendous reports about jf17 issues keep coming out.

Chinese have blunderd their whole demographics . While they are busy developing infra on border soon enough there will be no one left to even live there as entire Tibet faces population decline along with mainland China.

And if our western supported weapons systems which are considered the very best in the world could lead to friendly shooting just wait till you find out what happens to chinese stuff in the heat of battle. They have already blunderd in galwan and now have to maintain secrecy about it by silencing anyone who talks about death toll !

Let's see how many bodybags are they willing to take to humiliate India.

Lot's can be improved about our military ofcourse but given the circumstances we are doing fine. The need of the hour is too push indegenous stuff at mass scale and not import things out if panic which is unfound to reasoning.

 

[IndianHawk]

And if thye start a outright war , do you think we can contend with thier poodle pakistan behind our back ?

If we can't then you ought to wonder why are they not attacking us already??
Do they lack intelligence or perhaps they understand what they might face!!

 

[omaebakabaka]

Chinese have blunderd their whole demographics . While they are busy developing infra on border soon enough there will be no one left to even live there as entire Tibet faces population decline along with mainland China

You are kidding I hope....population scare is something driven by globos, there are enough people in the world. World is better off if some people just don't breed in the context of gender ratios (gender imbalance overhyped by globos so they can reap labor of human drones). We arrived at a common denominator of intelligence of a dumb drone as far as HDI is concerned now. Forest needs to burn once in a while to give rebirth.

Only way to make hans scared is to scalp a han in front of other hans.....

 

[IndianHawk]

You are kidding I hope....population scare is something driven by globos, there are enough people in the world. World is better off if some people just don't breed. We arrived at a common denominator of intelligence of a dumb drone as far as HDI is concerned now. Forest needs to burn once in a while to give rebirth.

Only way to make hans scared is to scalp a han in front of other hans.....

Am I ?? The land in contention among India and China is one of the most desolate place in the world. Lot's of Indian villages are empty at border because of migration. This has been reported in mainstream media too. This is despite Massive and growing population of India.
So what happens to remote villages of much richer china with a declining population??

That's why they are so desparate to mark permanent presence to strengthen their claim at border now but we are not allowing that and they are running out of time.

Low population is good for the world not for a country which wants to expand its borders.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Am I ?? The land in contention among India and China is one of the most desolate place in the world. Lot's of Indian villages are empty at border because of migration. This has been reported in mainstream media too. This is despite Massive and growing population of India.
So what happens to remote villages of much richer china with a declining population??

That's why they are so desparate to mark permanent presence to strengthen their claim at border now but we are not allowing that and they are running out of time.

Low population is good for the world not for a country which wants to expand its borders.

I traveled in Tibet for over a month, all cities are expanding there and the railway is built to connect to Nepal already. Tibetans are being replaced by Hans and Uighurs but there are enough settlers. Its India that has no foresight, Uttarakhand villages and Himachal ones are also losing people....in general Rural India is getting fucked due to this nonlocal development model that India is going for.

I agree with you that India caught up to their antics finally albeit a little late and lost more than enough land but finally they can;t slice at will anymore. Regaining will need to wait till opportunity comes along when hans get into their own internal strife and some divine intervention on our side in having strong pro sanatan ambitious head of GOI in India.

 

[abingdonboy]

I would be funny in a gallows humor sort of way if India gets its ass kicked in a 2 front war. Decades of complacency and lack of rational planning has to have a cost some day. I feel we will have an actual 2 front war some time this decade. Let's see how it works out. The Feb 27th episode proved that our conventional superiority isn't nearly what members here or the public used to think.

I feel a real humiliation which the govt can't spin or hide will be an impetus to get out act together in defence.

The Feb 27th episode proved what was obvious for a long time- Pakistan has the advantage if conflict if kept below the all out war threshold because india just wants to keep the status quo and is more than happy to back down. As I said above, India’s depth will eventually lead to a conventional advantage maybe after 1-3 months of combined arms conflict. Of course in this scenario the wild card is China opening up the eastern front or even signalling they would do that, that’s a truly apocalyptic scenario that could leave India squeezed in both sides and without the local strength to even hold the line.

I remember hearing a few years back that the IAF’s tactics for a 2 front war would be to launch overwhelming Ops to the West to quickly gain air supremacy and then pivot their assets to the East. I remember thinking at the time this was optimistic thinking but seeing the evolution of the AD and UAS technologies this kind of plan is suicidal and would risk the IAF becoming combat ineffective on both fronts pretty quickly, they are the force that perhaps has the least depth and yet are the ones that will dictate the overall strategic success of any campaign. Put them together and the picture isn’t very rosy but IAF are living in an alternate planet where all is good because they’ve issued an RFI for MRFA

+ fully agreed that a humiliating defeat is the only way anything would ever change. For now leadership can play on the general ignorance of the populace and keep claiming the Indian services are the best and ready for any challenge.

 

[abingdonboy]

There will be no such thing.
While it is correct we have blundered in our military procurements our enemies have done even worse blunder over previous decades.

Porkies have destroyed their economy while trying to maintain parity with India . Now they don't have money to even conduct regular exercises forget about any war. They are begging IMF so that they can continue to import oil . Another blunder they committed in cosying up to china to encircle India resulted in reduction of usa aid and now they are forced to buy j10 while horrendous reports about jf17 issues keep coming out.

Chinese have blunderd their whole demographics . While they are busy developing infra on border soon enough there will be no one left to even live there as entire Tibet faces population decline along with mainland China.

And if our western supported weapons systems which are considered the very best in the world could lead to friendly shooting just wait till you find out what happens to chinese stuff in the heat of battle. They have already blunderd in galwan and now have to maintain secrecy about it by silencing anyone who talks about death toll !

Let's see how many bodybags are they willing to take to humiliate India.

Lot's can be improved about our military ofcourse but given the circumstances we are doing fine. The need of the hour is too push indegenous stuff at mass scale and not import things out if panic which is unfound to reasoning.

China has the capacity to absorb far more losses than india and also to amortise the costs of their military deployments. India lacks that kind of depth and strategic autonomy

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Let's bring the thread back to strictly naval discussions.

 

[binayak95]

JIMEX 22, JS Izumo, JS Takanami, two Kamortas, one Shivalik class, one of the older OPVs. MiG29Ks, P8Is, Helos, et al

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

View attachment 171453

JIMEX 22, JS Izumo, JS Takanami, two Kamortas, one Shivalik class, one of the older OPVs. MiG29Ks, P8Is, Helos, et al

Wasn't JS Izumo undergoing refit for F-35B ops? Carrier conversion? Did they already complete that?

 

[binayak95]

Wasn't JS Izumo undergoing refit for F-35B ops? Carrier conversion? Did they already complete that?

Completed. Kaga is in the docks now