Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[omaebakabaka]

but zumwalt is gone now,it is an exprimental destroyer only now and i dont know if they will use it for that.also the time they have wasted in designing various components for this zumwalt is not going to be returned,the US is going through its terrible 20s now till 2030.they are retiring a lot of old ships which are workhorses. and they are going to be reduced to about 250-260 ships max if you are keeping track of retirement and induction schedules.also they are still proposing crazy impractical ideas like the last two decades like half of their new proposed fleet consisting of unmanned drone vessels which are a disaster in the making.

USA did not execute single grand project in the last decade and everyone of them like Ford or F35 is ambiguous success at best and do not come out well when cost aspects are concerned. Corruption on massive scales is endemic now across the board. What a shame....atleast space aspects seem to be doing well like sats, rockets and so on.

 

[binayak95]

@binayak95 @porky_kicker why new radar?Can't they use MFSTAR? Which radar this might be ?

I think its combination of MFSTAR and Selex RAN 40L
the RAN 40L is a 3D air search radar while MFSTAR is multirole, but IN likes to use it for target illumination.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Calling the Burkes especially Flight IIA and III obsolete is just plain wrong; the new updates standard SPY Aegis + new VLS systems + new gen DEW AD systems coming into service, plus general improvement to all other sensors, mission control, comms, automation means that the Burke is the second finest destroyer out there, right behind the Maya class DDG - and the US has nearly 80 of them.

the new flights are overwieght for the hull,they cant jam anymore systems in there,they will need a new hull and new design.also they are retiring all of the ticos which are bigger and have no credible replacement for it.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

USA did not execute single grand project in the last decade and everyone of them like Ford or F35 is ambiguous success at best and do not come out well when cost aspects are concerned. Corruption on massive scales is endemic now across the board. What a shame....atleast space aspects seem to be doing well like sats, rockets and so on.

in one aspect they are good,their navy is committed and are addicted to THEIR OWN private original weapon producers.they commit to buy stuff unfinished and in extreme cases like zumwalt and LCS untested without shock tests and concurrent development.they dont harass and delay their acquisition.a complete opposite of indian MIC scenario before.this results in lot of wasted development efforts and bad weapon designs,but now it is impacting their force numbers badly and it is mostly visible in their soon to be most importantly needed NAvy.

The pacific area is mainly going to be a sea war and they will need all the ships they can muster and in the coalition, they are building ,it is a shame that they are having the most problematic force numbers and future force numbers.

 

[Vamsi]

I think its combination of MFSTAR and Selex RAN 40L
the RAN 40L is a 3D air search radar while MFSTAR is multirole, but IN likes to use it for target illumination.

My question is why do they need a new radar when we already have the MF-STAR

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

My question is why do they need a new radar when we already have the MF-STAR

X-band is good against sea clutter. Is why we need it. MF-STAR is S-band. When facing the menace of sea-skimmers, having X-band to guide our point-defence SAM (VL-SRSAM) would be a good idea.
Also, I am hoping that the future capital ships of IN (NGD and NGF) get a proper integrated mast with LR-MFR and this new X-band radar integrated in it.

 

[binayak95]

the new flights are overwieght for the hull,they cant jam anymore systems in there,they will need a new hull and new design.also they are retiring all of the ticos which are bigger and have no credible replacement for it.

Oh agreed that the Burkes have reached end of life, but end of life Burke is still damn good. I wouldnt want to go toe to toe with a Burke crew.

 

[binayak95]

My question is why do they need a new radar when we already have the MF-STAR

You dont want MFSTAR doing both long range air search (remember the flight group control is also dependent on this) AND look for targets for engagement. And having MFSTAR for both is just expensive. Thought that brings in a degree of redundancy too.
Compromise hai.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

You dont want MFSTAR doing both long range air search (remember the flight group control is also dependent on this) AND look for targets for engagement. And having MFSTAR for both is just expensive. Thought that brings in a degree of redundancy too.
Compromise hai.

Could you be getting confused between L-band long range search radars like Selex RAN-40L and X-band radars meant for targeting at shorter ranges? He is asking why we need X-band instead of using existing S-band MF-STAR.

 

[omaebakabaka]

You dont want MFSTAR doing both long range air search (remember the flight group control is also dependent on this) AND look for targets for engagement. And having MFSTAR for both is just expensive. Thought that brings in a degree of redundancy too.
Compromise hai.

The attack profile of new threats makes both X and S band radars somewhat desired now to address current modern incoming threats. Why foreign brands though?

 

[binayak95]

The attack profile of new threats makes both X and S band radars somewhat desired now to address current modern incoming threats. Why foreign brands though?

Any domestic proven equivalents you want to try on the Navy's flagship?

 

[omaebakabaka]

Any domestic proven equivalents you want to try on the Navy's flagship?

You got me, I thought we are fairly matured in radar's with Uttam and Swathi and VLR radars and so on.....this is why I have difficulty believing the indigenous label.....radar's are conceptual minus the computing side and granted naval one's have their challenges but still....may be we just buy old source code from Israel and so on and rebrand?

 

[Blue Water Navy]

Commissioning on 1st Sep. Preparations underway..



@Cheran @Tactical Doge @Jimih @Marliii @Vikram314 @vidhwanshak @ajay7322 @nixin @Vamsi @vampyrbladez @Aditya Ballal @FalconSlayers @THESIS THORON @Covfefe @Physx32 @Rassil Krishnan

 

[Longewala]

in one aspect they are good,their navy is committed and are addicted to THEIR OWN private original weapon producers.they commit to buy stuff unfinished and in extreme cases like zumwalt and LCS untested without shock tests and concurrent development.they dont harass and delay their acquisition.a complete opposite of indian MIC scenario before.this results in lot of wasted development efforts and bad weapon designs,but now it is impacting their force numbers badly and it is mostly visible in their soon to be most importantly needed NAvy.

The pacific area is mainly going to be a sea war and they will need all the ships they can muster and in the coalition, they are building ,it is a shame that they are having the most problematic force numbers and future force numbers.

And it's also worth noting that the US military industrial complex comes up with frequent duds or inferior equipment, Sherman or Patton tanks, their 155mm artillery complex, the M-16 rifle, tin can M-113s (remember even then you had BMPs), too many flawed or at least initially troubled jet programs to name individually...
That doesn't seem to present an excuse for their military to run abroad

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

You got me, I thought we are fairly matured in radar's with Uttam and Swathi and VLR radars and so on.....this is why I have difficulty believing the indigenous label.....radar's are conceptual minus the computing side and granted naval one's have their challenges but still....may be we just buy old source code from Israel and so on and rebrand?

Nah. We are developing radars for the next gen ships, LR-MFR is already being tested on INS Anvesha. Now this news of X-band radar, which was actually mentioned in the Indian Navy's TPCR back in 2018. Also, if I remember right, there was some news of a new L-band radar for Navy being worked on by DRDO.
.
Apart from that, look at radars like conformal radars for QRSAM, Akash NG, Arudhra, HPR, Netra (AEW&CS), NETRA (ISRO), etc. Apart from that look at the numerous rf missile seekers. India's radar reportiere is too diverse to simply call it as "imported and rebranded". Check out the thread "India's AESA radars dreams to reality" thread for a longer list.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

@binayak95 @porky_kicker why new radar?Can't they use MFSTAR? Which radar this might be ?

My question is why do they need a new radar when we already have the MF-STAR

There are ships in the navy that don't have MFSTAR & need/will get VL-SRSAM => Kamorta, Delhi, Shivalik maybe even Talwars in the 30s, when Shtil1 imports are banned.
The pic that includes the island, radar/sensors of IAC-1 is just for representation, it doesn't imply that IAC-1 will have VL-SRSAM.

isn't 60m a bit small?

No. The 60m wide dry dock can build an aircraft carrier with a flight deck of 74-78m. Beam of the hull isn't going to be 60m, R Ford is around 41-43m at waterline, QEC - ~39m. IAC-1 is in early 30s, built in a 44-45m wide dry dock with a flight deck that is 62m wide. It depends on the hull form and how far away the cranes are.

Any domestic proven equivalents you want to try on the Navy's flagship?

Won't be the first time that a domestically developed equipment is put on a flagship (be it the fleet flagship or our flagship destroyer), IAC-1 will be no different.

Why foreign brands though?

I believe you are asking about MF-STAR here? If yes -
MF-STAR was chosen in the late 2000s, when we did not have any domestic S-Band MFR, import of naval MF-STAR is to be stopped after Dec 2022 (i.e. - no new orders after Dec 2022), that should clear your doubts on if we are 'fairly matured in radars'. & the domestically developed naval MFR has a larger aperture when compared to MF-STAR & can likely utilise more power.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

the domestically developed naval MFR has a larger aperture when compared to MF-STAR & can likely utilise more power.

Correct me if I am wrong:-
MF-STAR aperture = 4 meters
LR-MFR aperture = 6 meters
?

 

[Adm Kenobi]

Correct me if I am wrong:-
MF-STAR aperture = 4 meters
LR-MFR aperture = 6 meters
?

3 meters for MF-STAR (it's not 9m²)
5-6m is estimated for LR-MFR (based on satellite imagery and Jane's report quoted by DRDO)

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

From TPCR-2018:-


Dual Band Radar (IMHO the bands they'd want would be X and S bands)
Requirement for 40 radars projected. But this is for 1000 ton and above meaning its small enough for Corvettes and Frigates. Maybe won't be present on larger capital ships?

X-band weather radar

 

[Adm Kenobi]

From TPCR-2018:-


But this is for 1000 ton and above meaning its small enough for Corvettes and Frigates. Maybe won't be present on larger capital ships?

I'm not 100% sure if that refers to LR-MFR...LR-MFR is very likely to be a scalable, our NGCs & P-17B/NGF will need an MFR & MF-STAR is not an option, you can draw your own conclusion for LR-MFR.