Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[ShukantC]

I have a question if anyone has an appropriate explanation please share.

Why does Indian navy not order its ships in Bulk ???

The more the order is, the lesser the unit cost + faster the delivery of subsequent units......

The ships can also be upgraded in subsequent blocks like Arleigh burke block systems, even the difference between Kolkata class and the Vishakhapatnam class is not so radical.

Let's look at China they have planned a 25 strong 052D class that is comparable to the Vishakhapatnam class,
the 055 type whose 6-8 are already commissioned and 16 are planned comparable to our NGD...
There 054A frigate has 50 planned.

That is 91 modern frontline warships that will be put to water this decade, compared to that we have 4 *Vishakhapatnam class, 7*Nigiri Class,3*kolkata class, 3*shivalik class and lastly 10*talwar class. That is a total of 27 frontline warships in the same time period.

And if India is planning for a 3rd carrier battlegroup (which was there original plan) we will require many more capital ships than this......

 

[rohit b3]

I have a question if anyone has an appropriate explanation please share.

Why does Indian navy not order its ships in Bulk ???

The more the order is, the lesser the unit cost + faster the delivery of subsequent units......

The ships can also be upgraded in subsequent blocks like Arleigh burke block systems, even the difference between Kolkata class and the Vishakhapatnam class is not so radical.

Let's look at China they have planned a 25 strong 052D class that is comparable to the Vishakhapatnam class,
the 055 type whose 6-8 are already commissioned and 16 are planned comparable to our NGD...
There 054A frigate has 50 planned.

That is 91 modern frontline warships that will be put to water this decade, compared to that we have 4 *Vishakhapatnam class, 7*Nigiri Class,3*kolkata class, 3*shivalik class and lastly 10*talwar class. That is a total of 27 frontline warships in the same time period.

And if India is planning for a 3rd carrier battlegroup (which was there original plan) we will require many more capital ships than this......

What you are saying has been done in Kolkata Class and Vishakapatnam Class. Vish Class is nothing but Kolkata Class Batch 2. The last of the Kolkata Class was laid down in 2006 while first of the Vish Class was approved in 2009 and laid down in 2013.
The similarities ensured the cost to remain relatively low, each Vish Class costs 1.1 Bil$ and while the first Kolkata Class took 11 years to be commissioned from start of construction, the first Vish class was commissioned in 8 years.

Now you are probably asking why all the 7 Project 15A/B were not ordered together?
Answer : Budget/Money

Year 2000, Kolkata Class approval was given. India's Economy/GDP then was 468 Mil$ Nominal or around 1.4 Trillion$ in PPP. Can India order 7 massive Destroyers with that economy? 3 more Shivaliks ground work was already going on and also the contract for 3 Talwars.
Basically 468 Billion$ Economy = 9 capital warships

When approval for 4 Vish Class was given in 2011, India's GDP was 1.8 Trillion$ nominal or around 5.4 Trillion$ PPP. Also the approval of 7 Nilgiri Class INS Vikramaditya cost had just been paid and INS Vikrant construction had just begun.
1.8 Trillion$ Economy = 13 Capital Warships including 2 Carriers.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Why does Indian navy not order its ships in Bulk ???

It cost money to build ships.

If building 6 ships cost you ₹1000 you are paying ₹6,000 in total.

If building 50 ships cost you ₹500 you are till paying ₹25000 in total.

 

[Swesh]

Isro to build 2nd dedicated satellite for Navy to interlink warships, aircraft | India News - Times of India

India News: NEW DELHI: The Navy will get its second dedicated communication-cum-surveillance satellite by 2022 to keep tabs on the critical Indian Ocean Region an.

m.timesofindia.com

No need to have orgasams my friend that is an old article . ISRO is working on a delayed schedule and expect atleast 2 year delay if navy don't intervene

 

[johnj]

I have a question if anyone has an appropriate explanation please share.

Why does Indian navy not order its ships in Bulk ???

The more the order is, the lesser the unit cost + faster the delivery of subsequent units......

The ships can also be upgraded in subsequent blocks like Arleigh burke block systems, even the difference between Kolkata class and the Vishakhapatnam class is not so radical.

Let's look at China they have planned a 25 strong 052D class that is comparable to the Vishakhapatnam class,
the 055 type whose 6-8 are already commissioned and 16 are planned comparable to our NGD...
There 054A frigate has 50 planned.

That is 91 modern frontline warships that will be put to water this decade, compared to that we have 4 *Vishakhapatnam class, 7*Nigiri Class,3*kolkata class, 3*shivalik class and lastly 10*talwar class. That is a total of 27 frontline warships in the same time period.

And if India is planning for a 3rd carrier battlegroup (which was there original plan) we will require many more capital ships than this......

Actually IN order in Bulk, instead china, compare IN with PN, you can find the difference.
Chinese gdp 20t and Indian 3.3t. difference is 6x and 27x6 = 162 vs 91, now I think problem is solved, right ?
When Indian economy became same of Chinese, the no.of bulk order similar to Chinese.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Actually IN order in Bulk, instead china, compare IN with PN, you can find the difference.
Chinese gdp 20t and Indian 3.3t. difference is 6x and 27x6 = 162 vs 91, now I think problem is solved, right ?
When Indian economy became same of Chinese, the no.of bulk order similar to Chinese.

Another problem is that we import lot of subsystems that inflates the cost of ship. PLAN uses their indigenous tech which also drives down the cost.

 

[johnj]

Another problem is that we import lot of subsystems that inflates the cost of ship. PLAN uses their indigenous tech which also drives down the cost.

Yes, tested and proven subsystems, and those subsystems become low when our economy become similar to Chinese.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

I have a question if anyone has an appropriate explanation please share.

Why does Indian navy not order its ships in Bulk ???

The more the order is, the lesser the unit cost + faster the delivery of subsequent units......

The ships can also be upgraded in subsequent blocks like Arleigh burke block systems, even the difference between Kolkata class and the Vishakhapatnam class is not so radical.

Let's look at China they have planned a 25 strong 052D class that is comparable to the Vishakhapatnam class,
the 055 type whose 6-8 are already commissioned and 16 are planned comparable to our NGD...
There 054A frigate has 50 planned.

That is 91 modern frontline warships that will be put to water this decade, compared to that we have 4 *Vishakhapatnam class, 7*Nigiri Class,3*kolkata class, 3*shivalik class and lastly 10*talwar class. That is a total of 27 frontline warships in the same time period.

And if India is planning for a 3rd carrier battlegroup (which was there original plan) we will require many more capital ships than this......

A reason other than cost (as many have already told you about) is the number of capital ships sanctioned by the government.
Indian navy can legally have a maximum of only 39 capital ships (15 DDG & 24 FFG), 2 carriers, 24 attack submarines.

I'll explain it in the context of two classes (1 DDG & 1FFG)
When Vizag was planned, India had 5 Rajput class, 3 Delhi class and 3 Kolkata class under construction. Total => 11 ships.
Total number of sanctioned ships (15) - existing ships (11) = 4.
Indian navy could only order 4 Vizag so the destroyer fleet doesn't exceed 15.

Project 17 Alpha (Nilgiri) started around 2010,
Indian navy frigate fleet at that time (in service & on order)
2 Nilgiri class (older one)
3 Godavari class
3 Brahmaputra class
6 Talwar class
3 Shivalik class
Total => 17
24 - 17 = 7 (the number of Nilgiri ordered)

Now the number doesn't include the ship that will be retired by the those new vessels enter service, as we have seen =>
Visakhapatnam was not supposed to act as a replacement to Rajput class, but the delay in planning & fund release has forced it to act as a replacement to those. NGD (expected order = 5) is supposed to be the actual replacement of Rajput class. The total number of destroyers will remain at 10 till NGD arrives.

In case of P17A (Nilgiri),
With the retirement of last 2 Nilgiri & first two Godavari, the ship number (in service & on order) came down to 20 resulting in the order of "4" new Talwar (2 hulls were already being bought, govt decided to get 2 more but made in India). When all Nilgiri & Talwar delivered, the number will stand at 23 frigates.
Why 23 & not 24 you may ask? Because the last of 3 Godavari will be retired in the coming years

The number of capital ships in 2027-
10 destroyers & 23 Frigates (33 total)
Comprising of the following-

3 Delhi class
10 Talwar class (including the subclasses)
3 Brahmaputra
3 Shivalik
3 Kolkata
4 Visakhapatnam
7 Nilgiri

The order value also depends upon the factors such as construction capacity, number of skilled workforce available etcetera.
The solution to this is increasing the number of sanctioned capital ships (like IN is trying to do with carriers from 2 to 3), is IN insisting the govt to increase the number of sanctioned capital ships? We can't say anything for sure in this regards. Another thing to be done is allowing the navy to add the number of ships that are to be retired in the order value (so the Vizag-Rajput doesn't happen again).

BTW, all the capital ships will be launched by 2023! (Maybe except the 4th Talwar) & there is no sign of NGD or NGF. Both (NGD/NGF) won't enter service before 2030, so also take the poor planning & bureaucratic hurdles into the account for our small force of capital ships.

+ Contract for NGD won't be signed before the retirement of last Rajput class.

 

[ezsasa]

A reason other than cost (as many have already told you about) is the number of capital ships sanctioned by the government.
Indian navy can legally have a maximum of only 39 capital ships (15 DDG & 24 FFG), 2 carriers, 24 attack submarines.

I'll explain it in the context of two classes (1 DDG & 1FFG)
When Vizag was planned, India had 5 Rajput class, 3 Delhi class and 3 Kolkata class under construction. Total => 11 ships.
Total number of sanctioned ships (15) - existing ships (11) = 4.
Indian navy could only order 4 Vizag so the destroyer fleet doesn't exceed 15.

Project 17 Alpha (Nilgiri) started around 2010,
Indian navy frigate fleet at that time (in service & on order)
2 Nilgiri class (older one)
3 Godavari class
3 Brahmaputra class
6 Talwar class
3 Shivalik class
Total => 17
24 - 17 = 7 (the number of Nilgiri ordered)

Now the number doesn't include the ship that will be retired by the those new vessels enter service, as we have seen =>
Visakhapatnam was not supposed to act as a replacement to Rajput class, but the delay in planning & fund release has forced it to act as a replacement to those. NGD (expected order = 5) is supposed to be the actual replacement of Rajput class. The total number of destroyers will remain at 10 till NGD arrives.

In case of P17A (Nilgiri),
With the retirement of last 2 Nilgiri & first two Godavari, the ship number (in service & on order) came down to 20 resulting in the order of "4" new Talwar (2 hulls were already being bought, govt decided to get 2 more but made in India). When all Nilgiri & Talwar delivered, the number will stand at 23 frigates.
Why 23 & not 24 you may ask? Because the last of 3 Godavari will be retired in the coming years

The number of capital ships in 2027-
10 destroyers & 23 Frigates (33 total)
Comprising of the following-

3 Delhi class
10 Talwar class (including the subclasses)
3 Brahmaputra
3 Shivalik
3 Kolkata
4 Visakhapatnam
7 Nilgiri

The order value also depends upon the factors such as construction capacity, number of skilled workforce available etcetera.
The solution to this is increasing the number of sanctioned capital ships (like IN is trying to do with carriers from 2 to 3), is IN insisting the govt to increase the number of sanctioned capital ships? We can't say anything for sure in this regards. Another thing to be done is allowing the navy to add the number of ships that are to be retired in the order value (so the Vizag-Rajput doesn't happen again).

BTW, all the capital ships will be launched by 2023! (Maybe except the 4th Talwar) & there is no sign of NGD or NGF. Both (NGD/NGF) won't enter service before 2030, so also take the poor planning & bureaucratic hurdles into the account for our small force of capital ships.

+ Contract for NGD won't be signed before the retirement of last Rajput class.

From a doctrinal perspective, is there enough justification now for sanction of more capital ships?
in other words, is the talk of indo-pacific theatre motivating enough for MoD babus to facilitate increase in sanctioned capital ship?

 

[ShukantC]

A reason other than cost (as many have already told you about) is the number of capital ships sanctioned by the government.
Indian navy can legally have a maximum of only 39 capital ships (15 DDG & 24 FFG), 2 carriers, 24 attack submarines.

I'll explain it in the context of two classes (1 DDG & 1FFG)
When Vizag was planned, India had 5 Rajput class, 3 Delhi class and 3 Kolkata class under construction. Total => 11 ships.
Total number of sanctioned ships (15) - existing ships (11) = 4.
Indian navy could only order 4 Vizag so the destroyer fleet doesn't exceed 15.

Project 17 Alpha (Nilgiri) started around 2010,
Indian navy frigate fleet at that time (in service & on order)
2 Nilgiri class (older one)
3 Godavari class
3 Brahmaputra class
6 Talwar class
3 Shivalik class
Total => 17
24 - 17 = 7 (the number of Nilgiri ordered)

Now the number doesn't include the ship that will be retired by the those new vessels enter service, as we have seen =>
Visakhapatnam was not supposed to act as a replacement to Rajput class, but the delay in planning & fund release has forced it to act as a replacement to those. NGD (expected order = 5) is supposed to be the actual replacement of Rajput class. The total number of destroyers will remain at 10 till NGD arrives.

In case of P17A (Nilgiri),
With the retirement of last 2 Nilgiri & first two Godavari, the ship number (in service & on order) came down to 20 resulting in the order of "4" new Talwar (2 hulls were already being bought, govt decided to get 2 more but made in India). When all Nilgiri & Talwar delivered, the number will stand at 23 frigates.
Why 23 & not 24 you may ask? Because the last of 3 Godavari will be retired in the coming years

The number of capital ships in 2027-
10 destroyers & 23 Frigates (33 total)
Comprising of the following-

3 Delhi class
10 Talwar class (including the subclasses)
3 Brahmaputra
3 Shivalik
3 Kolkata
4 Visakhapatnam
7 Nilgiri

The order value also depends upon the factors such as construction capacity, number of skilled workforce available etcetera.
The solution to this is increasing the number of sanctioned capital ships (like IN is trying to do with carriers from 2 to 3), is IN insisting the govt to increase the number of sanctioned capital ships? We can't say anything for sure in this regards. Another thing to be done is allowing the navy to add the number of ships that are to be retired in the order value (so the Vizag-Rajput doesn't happen again).

BTW, all the capital ships will be launched by 2023! (Maybe except the 4th Talwar) & there is no sign of NGD or NGF. Both (NGD/NGF) won't enter service before 2030, so also take the poor planning & bureaucratic hurdles into the account for our small force of capital ships.

+ Contract for NGD won't be signed before the retirement of last Rajput class.

I would have been satisfied with the 39 capital ship number if we had only one side to be worried about, but we have adversaries affecting both are seaboards ie east is China and the West is Pakistan.

If we could just raise our sanctioned number to 50 capital ships as 39 capital ships are enough to handle the force China may send our way (they have to deal with other navies also namely South Korean, Japanese Navy and not to mention the US navy so they may send max 40 - 45 capital ships our way to maintain superiority and keep the 50+ ships to face them to maintain a defensive posture the same time) and keep the remaining 11 on our western seaboard to take care of Pak navy and these both sides our ships can also be supplemented with our air power , which may provide some balance in our force structure....

 

[Adm Kenobi]

From a doctrinal perspective, is there enough justification now for sanction of more capital ships?
in other words, is the talk of indo-pacific theatre motivating enough for MoD babus to facilitate increase in sanctioned capital ship?

The following is my opinion (feel free to correct where you think I'm wrong)
- the current doctrine stated by government is for defence of India' territory and interests...which is shifting to acting as a net security provider in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR)

A fleet of 2 small air defense carriers, 15 modern destroyers & 24 modern frigates is enough to do the above, coupled with the upcoming 7 NGC, 6 NGMV, 11 NG-OPV. (I have added the corvettes & OPV because every task doesn't necessitates a capital ships).

The above is more than enough to play a role of net security provider in the IOR & secure our territories and interests.

But what the above isn't enough for is - real power projection capability which the govt doesn't seem to be into right now. You'll need a good force to simultaneously maintain dominance in IOR & project power outside IOR.

IMO, the sanctioning of the 65k tonne CATOBAR carrier will mark the shift in govts policy & doctrine, because that thing paired with upcoming destroyers & frigates will be able to do some real power projection. The current Vikramaditya & Vikrant are just enough to work as an air defense ship for the fleet (with the help of fighters), another reason you see the heavy load of BrahMos in the new destroyers (yes 16 BrahMos is a big number) for surface warfare. When IAC-2 arrives, the role of surface warfare will go to the fighter jets on IAC-2 & the escorts will mostly be performing AAW and ASW.

I would say the lawmakers are *not* buying the Indo-*Pacific* theatre, until they sanction IAC-2. Sanctioning of more capital ships should follow soon after that (it will take a few years).

 

[ezsasa]

The following is my opinion (feel free to correct where you think I'm wrong)
- the current doctrine stated by government is for defence of India' territory and interests...which is shifting to acting as a net security provider in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR)

A fleet of 2 small air defense carriers, 15 modern destroyers & 24 modern frigates is enough to do the above, coupled with the upcoming 7 NGC, 6 NGMV, 11 NG-OPV. (I have added the corvettes & OPV because every task doesn't necessitates a capital ships).

The above is more than enough to play a role of net security provider in the IOR & secure our territories and interests.

But what the above isn't enough for is - real power projection capability which the govt doesn't seem to be into right now. You'll need a good force to simultaneously maintain dominance in IOR & project power outside IOR.

IMO, the sanctioning of the 65k tonne CATOBAR carrier will mark the shift in govts policy & doctrine, because that thing paired with upcoming destroyers & frigates will be able to do some real power projection. The current Vikramaditya & Vikrant are just enough to work as an air defense ship for the fleet (with the help of fighters), another reason you see the heavy load of BrahMos in the new destroyers (yes 16 BrahMos is a big number) for surface warfare. When IAC-2 arrives, the role of surface warfare will go to the fighter jets on IAC-2 & the escorts will mostly be performing AAW and ASW.

I would say the lawmakers are *not* buying the Indo-*Pacific* theatre, until they sanction IAC-2. Sanctioning of more capital ships should follow soon after that (it will take a few years).

perhaps there is a shift in thinking, but there is deliberate focus in developing capabilities first. SMART and coastal brahmos batteries, Brahmos-ER is perhaps a hint in that direction, example could be rapidity with which SMART project moved from design to test phase, additional acquisition of P-8I etc. alludes to focus on straightening defence of IOR before venturing out beyond.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

perhaps there is a shift in thinking, but there is deliberate focus in developing capabilities first. SMART and coastal brahmos batteries, Brahmos-ER is perhaps a hint in that direction, example could be rapidity with which SMART project moved from design to test phase, additional acquisition of P-8I etc. alludes to focus on straightening defence of IOR before venturing out beyond.

Yes, securing what we have before projecting power outside our backyard is absolutely necessary.
Hope we will move from a defensive navy to power projecting one in the next decade! : )

 

[flanker99]

The following is my opinion (feel free to correct where you think I'm wrong)
- the current doctrine stated by government is for defence of India' territory and interests...which is shifting to acting as a net security provider in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR)

A fleet of 2 small air defense carriers, 15 modern destroyers & 24 modern frigates is enough to do the above, coupled with the upcoming 7 NGC, 6 NGMV, 11 NG-OPV. (I have added the corvettes & OPV because every task doesn't necessitates a capital ships).

The above is more than enough to play a role of net security provider in the IOR & secure our territories and interests.

But what the above isn't enough for is - real power projection capability which the govt doesn't seem to be into right now. You'll need a good force to simultaneously maintain dominance in IOR & project power outside IOR.

IMO, the sanctioning of the 65k tonne CATOBAR carrier will mark the shift in govts policy & doctrine, because that thing paired with upcoming destroyers & frigates will be able to do some real power projection. The current Vikramaditya & Vikrant are just enough to work as an air defense ship for the fleet (with the help of fighters), another reason you see the heavy load of BrahMos in the new destroyers (yes 16 BrahMos is a big number) for surface warfare. When IAC-2 arrives, the role of surface warfare will go to the fighter jets on IAC-2 & the escorts will mostly be performing AAW and ASW.

I would say the lawmakers are *not* buying the Indo-*Pacific* theatre, until they sanction IAC-2. Sanctioning of more capital ships should follow soon after that (it will take a few years).

i do not the above numbers will be enough to thwart an aggressive chinese navy+militia in the future .....our coast guards reach is limited so navy will have to do all the heavylifting in most of IOR ...IMO we should build around 15-30 3-4k ton ships that have the legs and bite.

 

[johnj]

The following is my opinion (feel free to correct where you think I'm wrong)
- the current doctrine stated by government is for defence of India' territory and interests...which is shifting to acting as a net security provider in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR)

A fleet of 2 small air defense carriers, 15 modern destroyers & 24 modern frigates is enough to do the above, coupled with the upcoming 7 NGC, 6 NGMV, 11 NG-OPV. (I have added the corvettes & OPV because every task doesn't necessitates a capital ships).

The above is more than enough to play a role of net security provider in the IOR & secure our territories and interests.

But what the above isn't enough for is - real power projection capability which the govt doesn't seem to be into right now. You'll need a good force to simultaneously maintain dominance in IOR & project power outside IOR.

IMO, the sanctioning of the 65k tonne CATOBAR carrier will mark the shift in govts policy & doctrine, because that thing paired with upcoming destroyers & frigates will be able to do some real power projection. The current Vikramaditya & Vikrant are just enough to work as an air defense ship for the fleet (with the help of fighters), another reason you see the heavy load of BrahMos in the new destroyers (yes 16 BrahMos is a big number) for surface warfare. When IAC-2 arrives, the role of surface warfare will go to the fighter jets on IAC-2 & the escorts will mostly be performing AAW and ASW.

I would say the lawmakers are *not* buying the Indo-*Pacific* theatre, until they sanction IAC-2. Sanctioning of more capital ships should follow soon after that (it will take a few years).

I think you missed your main point - ''The order value also depends upon the factors such as construction capacity, number of skilled workforce available'' - already full or overloaded and lost some/major capability during these decades.
Another important point is funds, not enough for power projection outside IOR, currently and near future, 12/15 ddg and 18/24 ffg just do fine with 2/3 cbg, but need more corvettes , mine sweepers, ssk and support ship, autonomous boats, crafts and drones plus new quick reaction sam

 

[Adm Kenobi]

i do not the above numbers will be enough to thwart an aggressive chinese navy+militia in the future .....our coast guards reach is limited so navy will have to do all the heavylifting in most of IOR ...IMO we should build around 15-30 3-4k ton ships that have the legs and bite.

Capital ships are just 1 part of defence against a PLAN task force, the main teeth will be our aircrafts paired with AShM.

I have made the rest of my case regarding the navy vs navy scenario here- ( https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/project-p15b-visakhapatnam-class-destroyer.57747/post-2247820 )

the gray zone warfare and militias can be a problem for us in IOR if we don't increase the number of naval OPVs, we also don't know how much of that militia PRC can afford to send in the IOR, but increasing the number of NG-OPV (11) & NGC (7) makes good sense I agree.

Though 15-30 3-4k tonne ships aren't going to fight PLAN CSG, the strike aircrafts would gun you down before you reach them. Our own fighters in the theatre to stop them will be a better bet then some missile boats in large number. Those boats can be a part of task force including naval air wing/IAF

But if you meant to use 15-30 3-4k tonne ships (like NGC) against the militias, it will be a bit overkill...independent OPVs/NGC or a pairing between NG-OPV & NGC depending on the req of task at hand will be good. Agreed

 

[flanker99]

Capital ships are just 1 part of defence against a PLAN task force, the main teeth will be our aircrafts paired with AShM.

I have made the rest of my case regarding the navy vs navy scenario here- ( https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/project-p15b-visakhapatnam-class-destroyer.57747/post-2247820 )

the gray zone warfare and militias can be a problem for us in IOR if we don't increase the number of naval OPVs, we also don't know how much of that militia PRC can afford to send in the IOR, but increasing the number of NG-OPV (11) & NGC (7) makes good sense I agree.

Though 15-30 3-4k tonne ships aren't going to fight PLAN CSG, the strike aircrafts would gun you down before you reach them. Our own fighters in the theatre to stop them will be a better bet then some missile boats in large number. Those boats can be a part of task force including naval air wing/IAF

But if you meant to use 15-30 3-4k tonne ships (like NGC) against the militias, it will be a bit overkill...independent OPVs/NGC or a pairing between NG-OPV & NGC depending on the req of task at hand will be good. Agreed

i want those ships to pick up the slack in ior while some of our bigger ships like ddg's and ffg's deploy outside ior..also given their small footprint we can spread them in remote locations in IOR and hit with long range CM's or travel with a task force when necessary
basically something like the talwars but perhaps a bit smaller,cheaper with less manpower that can build and deployed in large numbers because we will need numbers against the chinese.
for maritime militia OPV's along with drone ships and giving more power to CG will do i think

 

[johnj]

Capital ships are just 1 part of defence against a PLAN task force, the main teeth will be our aircrafts paired with AShM.

I have made the rest of my case regarding the navy vs navy scenario here- ( https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/project-p15b-visakhapatnam-class-destroyer.57747/post-2247820 )

the gray zone warfare and militias can be a problem for us in IOR if we don't increase the number of naval OPVs, we also don't know how much of that militia PRC can afford to send in the IOR, but increasing the number of NG-OPV (11) & NGC (7) makes good sense I agree.

Though 15-30 3-4k tonne ships aren't going to fight PLAN CSG, the strike aircrafts would gun you down before you reach them. Our own fighters in the theatre to stop them will be a better bet then some missile boats in large number. Those boats can be a part of task force including naval air wing/IAF

But if you meant to use 15-30 3-4k tonne ships (like NGC) against the militias, it will be a bit overkill...independent OPVs/NGC or a pairing between NG-OPV & NGC depending on the req of task at hand will be good. Agreed

Against a task force, you need a counter task force. Best counter is ssk, ssn, aew, aew drone, heavy bomber, and most importantly long range missiles with different speeds. Sending IAF jets don't helps or any IN jets, they are only good sinking a boat with low AD capability like ones in PN. Age of dogfight and guns [manned] were gone.

 

[johnj]

i want those ships to pick up the slack in ior while some of our bigger ships like ddg's and ffg's deploy outside ior..also given their small footprint we can spread them in remote locations in IOR and hit with long range CM's or travel with a task force when necessary
basically something like the talwars but perhaps a bit smaller,cheaper with less manpower that can build and deployed in large numbers because we will need numbers against the chinese.
for maritime militia OPV's along with drone ships and giving more power to CG will do i think

A task force uses aew aircraft including helio, drone, small no.of missiles not make any good, but 4/6 ssk/ssn make some change, but for future long range autonomous killer subs can sink those battle group.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

I think you missed your main point - ''The order value also depends upon the factors such as construction capacity, number of skilled workforce available'' - already full or overloaded and lost some/major capability during these decades.
Another important point is funds, not enough for power projection outside IOR, currently and near future, 12/15 ddg and 18/24 ffg just do fine with 2/3 cbg, but need more corvettes , mine sweepers, ssk and support ship, autonomous boats, crafts and drones plus new quick reaction sam

Every point I have mentioned is a major one, I have elaborated upon the sanctioned capital ship point because that was unlikely to be covered by others.

"already full or overloaded and lost some/major capability during these decades."

Not at all! The shipyards have involved themselves in expansion projects & several projects that started in late 2000s have been completed & new projects have been started or are about to start. The number of tonnage that shipyards can handle has only went up, not "lost"

The Cradle Assembly Shop & MMP by MDL, the capacity has been increased to - "10 warships and 11 submarines at a time"
^ at a time means ships at several different stages, like some in fabrication shop, some in shipways and some in dry dock/fitting.

CSL has expanded on installing more cranes in their ship repair dry dock & building dry dock. Which will help in faster assembly of larger blocks compared to small blocks & a slow process. Also the new dry dock under construction (310×75×13m) will have 600 tonne gantry crane (with an option to add another at later stage) & 2 LLTT 75 tonne capacity cranes. It also has also expanded wrt the wet basins size & numbers.


GRSE => Post modernization and revitalization, the shipyard has the capacity to build 20 ships (08 large & 12 small) concurrently.

HSL has two very large slip way berth & a large covered building dock. The capacity of making nuclear powered subs simultaneously (in dry dock stage) has doubled from 2 to 4.

GSL which previously only handled small sub 3000t PVs OPVs has now started building 4000 tons frigate.

The infrastructure has improved, the number of skilled labour has also increased. + CSL is looking to recruit much more employees in coming year as stated in the golden jubilee event.

"Another important point is funds"
I think you haven't read all of my posts in this thread... I mentioned it, => "**A reason other than cost (as many have already told you about)** is the number of capital ships sanctioned by the government." I didn't wanted to elaborate on it further because others had done that.

"not enough for power projection outside IOR, currently and near future,"

Capital budget for Navy this FY(22-23) is ₹47,590cr which has more than doubled compared to what it was in 2015. I have mentioned the power projecting part for "next decade" not near future. Growth in funds will be proportional to the growth in economy, which is "to be seen".

"but need more corvettes , mine sweepers, ssk and support ship, autonomous boats, crafts and drones plus new quick reaction sam"

Agreed that we need more of the above^ but not by compromising other major capabilities. The 47,590cr funds provided is a very good amount, an avg conservative growth of 7% in CAPEX give you enough funds to fulfil the requirement of not only minor platforms but major ones too. Navy has used its' CAPEX to the fullest in the past couple of years. Might see an increment in revised estimates for budget in second half of this fiscal year.