Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[anirban8]

Another problem is that we import lot of subsystems that inflates the cost of ship. PLAN uses their indigenous tech which also drives down the cost.

Yeah wiki says type 55's cost per unit is only 800 mil. We need to think of somehow reducing the cost of these destroyers 1 billion is a lot.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

Against a task force, you need a counter task force. Best counter is ssk, ssn, aew, aew drone, heavy bomber, and most importantly long range missiles with different speeds. Sending IAF jets don't helps or any IN jets, they are only good sinking a boat with low AD capability like ones in PN. Age of dogfight and guns [manned] were gone.

"Against a task force, you need a counter task force."

Shocking!

"Best counter is ssk,"

SSKs will be the one that will be hunted by a PLAN CSG rather than the SSK hunting the strike group.

"ssn"

Without aerial superiority in the theatre, your SSN can be hunted down by enemy ASW helicopters & ASW surface combatants.
Submersible ships are very vulnerable against aerial ASW platforms, a reason why you need air superiority in the theatre.

"aew, aew drone"

Yes, & you need an airbase nearby for proper fixed wing AEW&C aircraft or a proper aircraft carrier with catapults. Rotary wing won't cut it in a heavily contested airspace where enemy has more powerful fixed wing AEW&C aircrafts.

"heavy bombers"

Haha, bombers without escorts are like carriers without escorts. Very vulnerable. + our doctrine doesn't include heavy bombers & neither it is heading towards that.

"and most importantly long range missiles with different speeds."

Yeah, those collectively come under the larger "AShM" category.

"Sending IAF jets don't helps or any IN jets,"

I have mentioned above on how important strike & fighter jets are & those would be from IAF/IN idk whose will you be sending.

"they are only good sinking a boat with low AD capability like ones in PN."

Wrong! Strike & fighter jets are still the most preferred way to handle an enemy task force which has an aircraft carrier at its' center of operations. A strike package of 12 MiG-29k or 12 MKI can deal with lot of damage if not intercepted before launching the payload (another reason why you need your own fighters to stop enemy strike jets).

"Age of dogfight and guns [manned] were gone."

I have not mentioned dogfight anywhere, i have mentioned aerial combat which is not limited to just dogfights. & the days of manned aircrafts are far from over.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

i want those ships to pick up the slack in ior while some of our bigger ships like ddg's and ffg's deploy outside ior..also given their small footprint we can spread them in remote locations in IOR and hit with long range CM's or travel with a task force when necessary
basically something like the talwars but perhaps a bit smaller,cheaper with less manpower that can build and deployed in large numbers because we will need numbers against the chinese.
for maritime militia OPV's along with drone ships and giving more power to CG will do i think

"our bigger ships like ddg's and ffg's deploy outside ior."

Too vulnerable without a proper carrier when positioned against a force which has credible aerial anti shipping capability. It will take at least a decade for us to actually build the IAC-2 & the required crew. Power projection can be done after you get a proper carrier and a proper air wing.

"basically something like the talwars but perhaps a bit smaller,cheaper with less manpower"

NGC might be close to that, but it is to be seen how things go.

 

[flanker99]

"our bigger ships like ddg's and ffg's deploy outside ior."

Too vulnerable without a proper carrier when positioned against a force which has credible aerial anti shipping capability. It will take at least a decade for us to actually build the IAC-2 & the required crew. Power projection can be done after you get a proper carrier and a proper air wing.

"basically something like the talwars but perhaps a bit smaller,cheaper with less manpower"

NGC might be close to that, but it is to be seen how things go.

we dont need to send them outside IOR in wartime we are very very far away from the time we can take on china in their own backyard but we must fortify our own backyard first and we need numbers for that...anyway i think our ships in future will mostly work with multinational taskforce outside IOR

 

[ShukantC]

I was seeing the below video from VisualPolitik about the Spanish S80+ class submarines development saga.

After seeing the video I really hope India does not repeat Spain's mistake and we really take note of all the things not to do while trying to build your own indigenous submarine.

Spain's biggest mistake which the video highlights is trying to take on this complex task all by it's self and not consulting it's long time partner in Submarine building ie the French as a design consultant resulting in a 11 year delay and more than $3-4 billion cost overrun.

I can understand India has mastered many of the technologies that go in Submarine building ie Sonar, AIP etc, but like in the Arihant class where we got design consultancy from the Russians, I really hope we partner with the French or the Russians when we try to take on the Project 76 because seeing our volatile neighborhood we honestly cant afford those kind of delays.

 

[Vande1947]

A reason other than cost (as many have already told you about) is the number of capital ships sanctioned by the government.
Indian navy can legally have a maximum of only 39 capital ships (15 DDG & 24 FFG), 2 carriers, 24 attack submarines.

I'll explain it in the context of two classes (1 DDG & 1FFG)
When Vizag was planned, India had 5 Rajput class, 3 Delhi class and 3 Kolkata class under construction. Total => 11 ships.
Total number of sanctioned ships (15) - existing ships (11) = 4.
Indian navy could only order 4 Vizag so the destroyer fleet doesn't exceed 15.

Project 17 Alpha (Nilgiri) started around 2010,
Indian navy frigate fleet at that time (in service & on order)
2 Nilgiri class (older one)
3 Godavari class
3 Brahmaputra class
6 Talwar class
3 Shivalik class
Total => 17
24 - 17 = 7 (the number of Nilgiri ordered)

Now the number doesn't include the ship that will be retired by the those new vessels enter service, as we have seen =>
Visakhapatnam was not supposed to act as a replacement to Rajput class, but the delay in planning & fund release has forced it to act as a replacement to those. NGD (expected order = 5) is supposed to be the actual replacement of Rajput class. The total number of destroyers will remain at 10 till NGD arrives.

In case of P17A (Nilgiri),
With the retirement of last 2 Nilgiri & first two Godavari, the ship number (in service & on order) came down to 20 resulting in the order of "4" new Talwar (2 hulls were already being bought, govt decided to get 2 more but made in India). When all Nilgiri & Talwar delivered, the number will stand at 23 frigates.
Why 23 & not 24 you may ask? Because the last of 3 Godavari will be retired in the coming years

The number of capital ships in 2027-
10 destroyers & 23 Frigates (33 total)
Comprising of the following-

3 Delhi class
10 Talwar class (including the subclasses)
3 Brahmaputra
3 Shivalik
3 Kolkata
4 Visakhapatnam
7 Nilgiri

The order value also depends upon the factors such as construction capacity, number of skilled workforce available etcetera.
The solution to this is increasing the number of sanctioned capital ships (like IN is trying to do with carriers from 2 to 3), is IN insisting the govt to increase the number of sanctioned capital ships? We can't say anything for sure in this regards. Another thing to be done is allowing the navy to add the number of ships that are to be retired in the order value (so the Vizag-Rajput doesn't happen again).

BTW, all the capital ships will be launched by 2023! (Maybe except the 4th Talwar) & there is no sign of NGD or NGF. Both (NGD/NGF) won't enter service before 2030, so also take the poor planning & bureaucratic hurdles into the account for our small force of capital ships.

+ Contract for NGD won't be signed before the retirement of last Rajput class.

Hi.
What do you mean by 'Indian Navy can legally have a maximum number of 39 capital ships'??

Where did 'legally' come from? Who has mandated this number and who is enforcing this number?

Please do elaborate.

Thanks

 

[johnj]

"Against a task force, you need a counter task force."
Shocking!
"Best counter is ssk,"
SSKs will be the one that will be hunted by a PLAN CSG rather than the SSK hunting the strike group.
"ssn"
Without aerial superiority in the theatre, your SSN can be hunted down by enemy ASW helicopters & ASW surface combatants.
Submersible ships are very vulnerable against aerial ASW platforms, a reason why you need air superiority in the theatre.
"aew, aew drone"
Yes, & you need an airbase nearby for proper fixed wing AEW&C aircraft or a proper aircraft carrier with catapults. Rotary wing won't cut it in a heavily contested airspace where enemy has more powerful fixed wing AEW&C aircrafts.
"heavy bombers"
Haha, bombers without escorts are like carriers without escorts. Very vulnerable. + our doctrine doesn't include heavy bombers & neither it is heading towards that.
"and most importantly long range missiles with different speeds."
Yeah, those collectively come under the larger "AShM" category.
"Sending IAF jets don't helps or any IN jets,"
I have mentioned above on how important strike & fighter jets are & those would be from IAF/IN idk whose will you be sending.
"they are only good sinking a boat with low AD capability like ones in PN."
Wrong! Strike & fighter jets are still the most preferred way to handle an enemy task force which has an aircraft carrier at its' center of operations. A strike package of 12 MiG-29k or 12 MKI can deal with lot of damage if not intercepted before launching the payload (another reason why you need your own fighters to stop enemy strike jets).
"Age of dogfight and guns [manned] were gone."
I have not mentioned dogfight anywhere, i have mentioned aerial combat which is not limited to just dogfights. & the days of manned aircrafts are far from over.

A CBG use aew aircraft [defensive] and having long range surveillance radar, and can't launch 24 jet at once, but they can intercept 48 missile at different ranges, means 12 mig 29 or 12 mki is not going to cause any major issue to CBG. Good thing is Chinese currently not so great with CBG deployment in hostile seas.
Chinese not so dumb to send a CBG without considering Indian capabilities, first they use long range cruise missile from nuclear subs against IAF/IN air bases and after considering the results that they may consider sending CBG [two] large Battle groups. Still chances is low.

I told you dogfights are over, and CBG countries need a next gen tomcat with next gen Phoenix or hyper sonic 6th gen killer drone, but today none of those exist. Bomber aircraft - designed to carry bombs, but today they are converted into carrying missiles, not short rage once but also long range too. Here I'm talking about missile carrying bombers not bomb or torpedos carrying one, they launch their payload from safe distance with out any warning something a normal fighter-bomber can't but some do, but the main advantage is they can carry more, can launch missile from any position and fighter-bomber sqn can focus on other missions where they need most. Since all these is irrelevant since we don't have heavy bombers, so I'm sticking with countries don't have naval heavy bombers, and they choose ssk/ssn to counter CBG, because it is the only area it is vulnerable, it is true CBG uses ssn/ssk and helios, but still there is space for enemy sub to travel and attack. A CBG is capable of shooting down incoming missiles, upto 100s, [USN], and our CBG can handle some 40/50, but stealth subs ssn/ssk aip possess a huge threat, and that's why USSR, PN, PLAN given more importance to subs. A carrier can't launch aircraft like land air base, if IAF sends 25MKI all of them launch AShM missiles on targets before gets shot down[most of them returns home] If you are considering enemy CBG in offensive mode, any counter attack depends on damaged caused by enemy LRCM. Bottom line - no one considering sending fi-bo jets fo attack CBG, but use long range missile, subs but use fighter jets to intercept incoming naval jets.
Now aerial superiority , for achieving aerial superiority, first need to shoot down/destroy naval jets then needed to make sue CBG used all long/medium range sams.[Once naval jets gets destroyed, CBG loses 90% offensive capability]
Hypersonic weapons/rail guns are new, I don't how USN or IN going to counter them.
Naval aerial warfare is not like Air Force aerial warfare, Navy AF can't replace AF. Aerial superiority important in Air Force aerial warfare, not in Naval warfare.
You can look into eft vs rafale, f18, harrier vs mig29k, etc. and IN choice mig becz it is the only aircraft available.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

What do you mean by 'Indian Navy can legally have a maximum number of 39 capital ships'??

It means that govt has only approved 39 capital ships/has accepted the necessity of 39 capital ships.

Where did 'legally' come from? Who has mandated this number and who is enforcing this number?

Please do elaborate.

Thanks

The "legal" part comes from the government of India, to start building a ship you need to go through several stages, one of then is getting the approval from the government...without the approval you can't build it. It is upto the govt if it wants to increase the number of boats/carriers (of any type) sanctioned to the IN..like the case for third carrier where govt has only approved 2 but IN wants a 3rd one so IN is presenting its' case for the third carrier to the govt, if the ministry thinks it is a necessity...it will get the approval & the number of max carrier will be increased to 3.
Govt has only approved 39 capital ships, which means 39 is the *legal* & *maximum* number.

 

[johnj]

It means that govt has only approved 39 capital ships/has accepted the necessity of 39 capital ships.




The "legal" part comes from the government of India, to start building a ship you need to go through several stages, one of then is getting the approval from the government...without the approval you can't build it. It is upto the govt if it wants to increase the number of boats/carriers (of any type) sanctioned to the IN..like the case for third carrier where govt has only approved 2 but IN wants a 3rd one so IN is presenting its' case for the third carrier to the govt, if the ministry thinks it is a necessity...it will get the approval & the number of max carrier will be increased to 3.
Govt has only approved 39 capital ships, which means 39 is the *legal* & *maximum* number.

Confusing.
How may capital ship IN have in 1990, 2000, 2010 and 2020 ?

 

[Adm Kenobi]

Confusing.
How may capital ship IN have in 1990, 2000, 2010 and 2020 ?

In early 1990s the only class of destroyers were Rajput class. Commissioned in the 80s and total 5 in number.

In the 1990-2000 period-
5 Rajput & 2 Delhi

In 2000-2010 period-
5 Rajput and 3 Delhi

In 2010-20 period-
4 Rajput (1 retired in late 2010s)
3 Delhi
3 Kolkata

At max, IN has had 11 destroyers before 1 Rajput got decommissioned & the number went back to 10.

Frigates-

1990-2000 period-
2 leopard class (retired in early 90s)
1 whitby class (which was retired in early 90s itself)
6 Nilgiri class (1 retired by the end of this period)
3 Godavari
1 leander class
+ 1 Talwar & + 1 Brahmaputra by the end of 2000

2000-2010 period-
5 Nilgiri (3 more retired by the end of 2010)
1 leander
3 Godavari
3 Brahmaputra
3 Talwar
1 Shivalik (commissioned at the end of 2010)

2010-20 period-
Retirement of the last 2 Nilgiri
Retirement of last leander
Retirement of 2 Godavari with 1 left
3 Brahmaputra
Addition of 3 more Talwar totaling 6 by the end of decade
Addition of 2 more Shivalik totaling 3 by the end of decade

By the end of 2020 we had 1 Godavari, 3 Brahmaputra, 6 Talwar & 3 Shivalik for a total of 13 frigates (max in 2000-2010 when we had some 14-15 at one point iirc).

The fleet we will have in 2027-28 =>
Destroyers = ~10 (3 Delhi, 3 Kolkata, 4 Vizag & remaining 3 Rajput would be retired by this time I presume)
Frigates- 23 (3 Brahmaputra, 10 Talwar, 3 Shivalik, 7 Nilgiri, the last Godavari is to be retired soon)

10/15 & 23/24 by the decades end with no capital ship being commissioned after 2027-28 & before 2030.

Correct me where I'm wrong,

Edit 1- added two quotes,

 

[Adm Kenobi]

A CBG use aew aircraft [defensive] and having long range surveillance radar, and can't launch 24 jet at once, but they can intercept 48 missile at different ranges, means 12 mig 29 or 12 mki is not going to cause any major issue to CBG. Good thing is Chinese currently not so great with CBG deployment in hostile seas.
Chinese not so dumb to send a CBG without considering Indian capabilities, first they use long range cruise missile from nuclear subs against IAF/IN air bases and after considering the results that they may consider sending CBG [two] large Battle groups. Still chances is low.

I told you dogfights are over, and CBG countries need a next gen tomcat with next gen Phoenix or hyper sonic 6th gen killer drone, but today none of those exist. Bomber aircraft - designed to carry bombs, but today they are converted into carrying missiles, not short rage once but also long range too. Here I'm talking about missile carrying bombers not bomb or torpedos carrying one, they launch their payload from safe distance with out any warning something a normal fighter-bomber can't but some do, but the main advantage is they can carry more, can launch missile from any position and fighter-bomber sqn can focus on other missions where they need most. Since all these is irrelevant since we don't have heavy bombers, so I'm sticking with countries don't have naval heavy bombers, and they choose ssk/ssn to counter CBG, because it is the only area it is vulnerable, it is true CBG uses ssn/ssk and helios, but still there is space for enemy sub to travel and attack. A CBG is capable of shooting down incoming missiles, upto 100s, [USN], and our CBG can handle some 40/50, but stealth subs ssn/ssk aip possess a huge threat, and that's why USSR, PN, PLAN given more importance to subs. A carrier can't launch aircraft like land air base, if IAF sends 25MKI all of them launch AShM missiles on targets before gets shot down[most of them returns home] If you are considering enemy CBG in offensive mode, any counter attack depends on damaged caused by enemy LRCM. Bottom line - no one considering sending fi-bo jets fo attack CBG, but use long range missile, subs but use fighter jets to intercept incoming naval jets.
Now aerial superiority , for achieving aerial superiority, first need to shoot down/destroy naval jets then needed to make sue CBG used all long/medium range sams.[Once naval jets gets destroyed, CBG loses 90% offensive capability]
Hypersonic weapons/rail guns are new, I don't how USN or IN going to counter them.
Naval aerial warfare is not like Air Force aerial warfare, Navy AF can't replace AF. Aerial superiority important in Air Force aerial warfare, not in Naval warfare.
You can look into eft vs rafale, f18, harrier vs mig29k, etc. and IN choice mig becz it is the only aircraft available.

0. PRC doesn't have the capability to project power with the 2 STOBAR carrier as they have a small air wing (24 J-15 + 12 helis), lack of fixed wing long endurance aew&c aircraft & not being able to generate enough sorties for defence+strike. (Same problems are faced by Vikky & will be faced by Vikrant). 1st 003 is expected to be commissioned by 2024 & will take a couple years after that to be operational. Another 003 which is expected to be laid soon would be *operational* by around 2030. Totalling 4 operational carriers by 2030 (Liaoning would likely be retired around mid 30s & replaced by PRC' first CVNs) US expects a max of 6 carriers by 2040. Half of which will be operational at any given time & can easily go 50%+ if provided enough time to prepare. So a max of 4 operational carriers by 2040 (5 in an *over optimistic* scenario). Are four operational carriers (which would rarely be the case) enough to send a tandem CSG to IOR & dominate their own backyard? I'll leave the answer to you.
The tandem PLAN CSG against India is not even feasible before 2040.
1. E2D of US can also be used to guide AShM, not all aew&c aircrafts are for early warning (AFAIK the upcoming KJ-600 doesn't have the same capability) this is due to NIFC-CA which also helps greatly in defence of surface combatants as it can detect *and* helo guide the SAM at long ranges to intercept a low flying missile. It can guide offensive & defensive missiles so saying it's "just" for "defense" would not be 100% true

2. I'm talking about a CATOBAR carrier paired with a permanent air base at ANC (which doesn't exist rn but hope it is finished by early 2030s). The tandem CSG isn't comings before late 2030s or early 2040s. But what we will have by early-mid 2030s is a permanent air base at ANC, TEDBF, IAC-2 is expected to be operational around mid 30s, BrahMos NG/800km ER, NGD, AD-1/2 etcetera
Strike & fighter jets will still be relevant in the 30s & 40s with the 40s we will witness the maturing strike UCAV & 6th gen fighters. I'll leave the 40+ talks & move back to our situation with confronting tandem CSG of PLAN..IAC-2 & the planes from ANC will work in the same task force. A CATOBAR + ANC can easily launch a formation of 12+ TEDBF & 12+ MKI in less than an half an hour equipped with at least 2 AShM each & A2A missiles, => 48 AShM in just the first wave paired with AShM from other platforms such as surface combatants & submarines

Several waves will be launched from both sides targeting the aircraft launch platform/base. BTW, HCM will be present on both sides & so will the interceptors (talking about a post 2030 scenario) the game will turn to saturation as several missiles are launched & intercepted. Loses will be there on both sides.
Who will break first is to be seen & can’t be predicted right now.

I have an understanding that submersible platforms (SSGN, SSN SSK, XLUUV), UCAV (need not be HyperSonic), long range strike missiles (HCMs included), situational awareness, aerial combatants in contested airspace, ASW platforms, DEW etcetera will play a very decisive role in the outcome of future naval battles.
1 thing I'd like to make clear is that aerial assets are just as necessary as others I mentioned above^
There is no foreseeable replacement to aircraft carrier.

"Naval aerial warfare is not like Air Force aerial warfare,"

Shocking!

"Aerial superiority important in Air Force aerial warfare, not in Naval warfare."

Wrong! Aerial superiority provides you unmatched advantage against an enemy which lacks one & aerial assets become a necessity to counter an adversary which has the same. It is required in every possible theatre including naval.

Another thing I'd like to correct is the "and our CBG can handle some 40/50"

It depends upon how much the adversary can send in 1 wave, a Vikrant CBG (including 3 Vizag & 3 Nilgiri + Kamorta) can easily handle 2-3 waves of those 40-50 missiles

64+6*32 MR-SAM = 256 MR-SAM.
Addition of VL-SRSAM will further help create a defence against low flying missiles that won't be detected far enough due to horizon.
A CBG is variable on the threat it will be facing, the number of combatants will increase/decrease depending on the threat level.
IN' Eastern Fleet will have the following escorts-
4 Vizag
3 Delhi
(+5 NGD around mid 2030s)
7 Nilgiri
3 Shivalik
2-3 Kamorta
TBD number of NGF/NGC/NGMV.

& this is the force we can bring to the Andaman & Nicobar theatre (the number of availability will vary depending on time)

 

[flanker99]

0. PRC doesn't have the capability to project power with the 2 STOBAR carrier as they have a small air wing (24 J-15 + 12 helis), lack of fixed wing long endurance aew&c aircraft & not being able to generate enough sorties for defence+strike. (Same problems are faced by Vikky & will be faced by Vikrant). 1st 003 is expected to be commissioned by 2024 & will take a couple years after that to be operational. Another 003 which is expected to be laid soon would be *operational* by around 2030. Totalling 4 operational carriers by 2030 (Liaoning would likely be retired around mid 30s & replaced by PRC' first CVNs) US expects a max of 6 carriers by 2040. Half of which will be operational at any given time & can easily go 50%+ if provided enough time to prepare. So a max of 4 operational carriers by 2040 (5 in an *over optimistic* scenario). Are four operational carriers (which would rarely be the case) enough to send a tandem CSG to IOR & dominate their own backyard? I'll leave the answer to you.
The tandem PLAN CSG against India is not even feasible before 2040.

1. E2D of US can also be used to guide AShM, not all aew&c aircrafts are for early warning (AFAIK the upcoming KJ-600 doesn't have the same capability) this is due to NIFC-CA which also helps greatly in defence of surface combatants as it can detect *and* helo guide the SAM at long ranges to intercept a low flying missile. It can guide offensive & defensive missiles so saying it's "just" for "defense" would not be 100% true

2. I'm talking about a CATOBAR carrier paired with a permanent air base at ANC (which doesn't exist rn but hope it is finished by early 2030s). The tandem CSG isn't comings before late 2030s or early 2040s. But what we will have by early-mid 2030s is a permanent air base at ANC, TEDBF, IAC-2 is expected to be operational around mid 30s, BrahMos NG/800km ER, NGD, AD-1/2 etcetera
Strike & fighter jets will still be relevant in the 30s & 40s with the 40s we will witness the maturing strike UCAV & 6th gen fighters. I'll leave the 40+ talks & move back to our situation with confronting tandem CSG of PLAN..IAC-2 & the planes from ANC will work in the same task force. A CATOBAR + ANC can easily launch a formation of 12+ TEDBF & 12+ MKI in less than an half an hour equipped with at least 2 AShM each & A2A missiles, => 48 AShM in just the first wave paired with AShM from other platforms such as surface combatants & submarines

Several waves will be launched from both sides targeting the aircraft launch platform/base. BTW, HCM will be present on both sides & so will the interceptors (talking about a post 2030 scenario) the game will turn to saturation as several missiles are launched & intercepted. Loses will be there on both sides.
Who will break first is to be seen & can’t be predicted right now.

I have an understanding that submersible platforms (SSGN, SSN SSK, XLUUV), UCAV (need not be HyperSonic), long range strike missiles (HCMs included), situational awareness, aerial combatants in contested airspace, ASW platforms, DEW etcetera will play a very decisive role in the outcome of future naval battles.
1 thing I'd like to make clear is that aerial assets are just as necessary as others I mentioned above^
There is no foreseeable replacement to aircraft carrier.

"Naval aerial warfare is not like Air Force aerial warfare,"

Shocking!

"Aerial superiority important in Air Force aerial warfare, not in Naval warfare."

Wrong! Aerial superiority provides you unmatched advantage against an enemy which lacks one & aerial assets become a necessity to counter an adversary which has the same. It is required in every possible theatre including naval.

Another thing I'd like to correct is the "and our CBG can handle some 40/50"

It depends upon how much the adversary can send in 1 wave, a Vikrant CBG (including 3 Vizag & 3 Nilgiri + Kamorta) can easily handle 2-3 waves of those 40-50 missiles

64+6*32 MR-SAM = 256 MR-SAM.
Addition of VL-SRSAM will further help create a defence against low flying missiles that won't be detected far enough due to horizon.
A CBG is variable on the threat it will be facing, the number of combatants will increase/decrease depending on the threat level.
IN' Eastern Fleet will have the following escorts-
4 Vizag
3 Delhi
(+5 NGD around mid 2030s)
7 Nilgiri
3 Shivalik
2-3 Kamorta
TBD number of NGF/NGC/NGMV.

& this is the force we can bring to the Andaman & Nicobar theatre (the number of availability will vary depending on time)

Vizags will stay in our western fleet..delhi's are being transferred to eastern fleet..makes nonsense...but maybe p17a's will have some c&c control facilities

 

[WolfPack86]

S500 Order,No Uttam Mk2,Vibhram UAV For Army,12 Submarines Under Project 76

 

[Adm Kenobi]

Vizags will stay in our western fleet..delhi's are being transferred to eastern fleet..makes nonsense...but maybe p17a's will have some c&c control facilities

All 4 Vizag & all 7 Nilgiri will go to the Eastern fleet. Visakhapatnam was always going to the Eastern fleet

 

[flanker99]

All 4 Vizag & all 7 Nilgiri will go to the Eastern fleet. Visakhapatnam was always going to the Eastern fleet

Whats your source?...vizag is currently home ported at Mumbai

 

[Adm Kenobi]

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/ins-visakhapatnam-formally-dedicated-to-city-of-destiny/2446979/

 

[johnj]

In early 1990s the only class of destroyers were Rajput class. Commissioned in the 80s and total 5 in number.

In the 1990-2000 period-
5 Rajput & 2 Delhi

In 2000-2010 period-
5 Rajput and 3 Delhi

In 2000-2010 period-
4 Rajput (1 retired in late 2010s)
3 Delhi
3 Kolkata

At max, IN has had 11 destroyers before 1 Rajput got decommissioned & the number went back to 10.

Frigates-

1990-2000 period-
2 leopard class (retired in early 90s)
1 whitby class (which was retired in early 90s itself)
6 Nilgiri class (1 retired by the end of this period)
3 Godavari
1 leander class
+ 1 Talwar & + 1 Brahmaputra by the end of 2000

2000-2010 period-
5 Nilgiri (3 more retired by the end of 2010)
1 leander
3 Godavari
3 Brahmaputra
3 Talwar
1 Shivalik (commissioned at the end of 2010)

2010-20 period-
Retirement of the last 2 Nilgiri
Retirement of last leander
Retirement of 2 Godavari with 1 left
3 Brahmaputra
Addition of 3 more Talwar totaling 6 by the end of decade
Addition of 2 more Shivalik totaling 3 by the end of decade

By the end of 2020 we had 1 Godavari, 3 Brahmaputra, 6 Talwar & 3 Shivalik for a total of 13 frigates (max in 2000-2010 when we had some 14-15 at one point iirc).

The fleet we will have in 2027-28 =>
Destroyers = ~10 (3 Delhi, 3 Kolkata, 4 Vizag & remaining 3 Rajput would be retired by this time I presume)
Frigates- 23 (3 Brahmaputra, 10 Talwar, 3 Shivalik, 7 Nilgiri, the last Godavari is to be retired soon)

10/15 & 23/24 by the decades end with no capital ship being commissioned after 2027-28 & before 2030.

Correct me where I'm wrong,

Edit 1- added two quotes,

2010-20 period-17,In 2000-2010 period-24,In 2000-2010 period-23, ok, now what is the total nos of capital ships GOI permitted ?

 

[johnj]

0. PRC doesn't have the capability to project power with the 2 STOBAR carrier as they have a small air wing (24 J-15 + 12 helis), lack of fixed wing long endurance aew&c aircraft & not being able to generate enough sorties for defence+strike. (Same problems are faced by Vikky & will be faced by Vikrant). 1st 003 is expected to be commissioned by 2024 & will take a couple years after that to be operational. Another 003 which is expected to be laid soon would be *operational* by around 2030. Totalling 4 operational carriers by 2030 (Liaoning would likely be retired around mid 30s & replaced by PRC' first CVNs) US expects a max of 6 carriers by 2040. Half of which will be operational at any given time & can easily go 50%+ if provided enough time to prepare. So a max of 4 operational carriers by 2040 (5 in an *over optimistic* scenario). Are four operational carriers (which would rarely be the case) enough to send a tandem CSG to IOR & dominate their own backyard? I'll leave the answer to you.
The tandem PLAN CSG against India is not even feasible before 2040.

1. E2D of US can also be used to guide AShM, not all aew&c aircrafts are for early warning (AFAIK the upcoming KJ-600 doesn't have the same capability) this is due to NIFC-CA which also helps greatly in defence of surface combatants as it can detect *and* helo guide the SAM at long ranges to intercept a low flying missile. It can guide offensive & defensive missiles so saying it's "just" for "defense" would not be 100% true

2. I'm talking about a CATOBAR carrier paired with a permanent air base at ANC (which doesn't exist rn but hope it is finished by early 2030s). The tandem CSG isn't comings before late 2030s or early 2040s. But what we will have by early-mid 2030s is a permanent air base at ANC, TEDBF, IAC-2 is expected to be operational around mid 30s, BrahMos NG/800km ER, NGD, AD-1/2 etcetera
Strike & fighter jets will still be relevant in the 30s & 40s with the 40s we will witness the maturing strike UCAV & 6th gen fighters. I'll leave the 40+ talks & move back to our situation with confronting tandem CSG of PLAN..IAC-2 & the planes from ANC will work in the same task force. A CATOBAR + ANC can easily launch a formation of 12+ TEDBF & 12+ MKI in less than an half an hour equipped with at least 2 AShM each & A2A missiles, => 48 AShM in just the first wave paired with AShM from other platforms such as surface combatants & submarines

Several waves will be launched from both sides targeting the aircraft launch platform/base. BTW, HCM will be present on both sides & so will the interceptors (talking about a post 2030 scenario) the game will turn to saturation as several missiles are launched & intercepted. Loses will be there on both sides.
Who will break first is to be seen & can’t be predicted right now.

I have an understanding that submersible platforms (SSGN, SSN SSK, XLUUV), UCAV (need not be HyperSonic), long range strike missiles (HCMs included), situational awareness, aerial combatants in contested airspace, ASW platforms, DEW etcetera will play a very decisive role in the outcome of future naval battles.
1 thing I'd like to make clear is that aerial assets are just as necessary as others I mentioned above^
There is no foreseeable replacement to aircraft carrier.

"Naval aerial warfare is not like Air Force aerial warfare,"

Shocking!

"Aerial superiority important in Air Force aerial warfare, not in Naval warfare."

Wrong! Aerial superiority provides you unmatched advantage against an enemy which lacks one & aerial assets become a necessity to counter an adversary which has the same. It is required in every possible theatre including naval.

Another thing I'd like to correct is the "and our CBG can handle some 40/50"

It depends upon how much the adversary can send in 1 wave, a Vikrant CBG (including 3 Vizag & 3 Nilgiri + Kamorta) can easily handle 2-3 waves of those 40-50 missiles

64+6*32 MR-SAM = 256 MR-SAM.
Addition of VL-SRSAM will further help create a defence against low flying missiles that won't be detected far enough due to horizon.
A CBG is variable on the threat it will be facing, the number of combatants will increase/decrease depending on the threat level.
IN' Eastern Fleet will have the following escorts-
4 Vizag
3 Delhi
(+5 NGD around mid 2030s)
7 Nilgiri
3 Shivalik
2-3 Kamorta
TBD number of NGF/NGC/NGMV.

& this is the force we can bring to the Andaman & Nicobar theatre (the number of availability will vary depending on time)

''Shocking! '' MBT battle group with out air defence assets gets easily destroyed by uacv, in naval warfare, with out long range ground attack capability, using missile the fate of cbg is similar to MBT battle group with out air defence assets. PLAN use long range cruise missile first <future hard to predict, becz IN and IAF have their own priority>, since they already send SSBM, they consider equipping them with 1500+km missile. Rest PLAN sending task force to attack, lol, may be after 2035, or may be never, so they need 5/6 AC for their sea defence.
My theory- they keep their ACs in their seas which help PLAAF to deploy more jets against us, may be up to 70%, and helps to challenge/check US and its allies in SCS, and keep multibillion $ ship floating.
Land airbase can deploy multiple jets at once, but AC can't and now a days Airlaunched AShM missile having range more 200km, means they can fire missile from outside cbg sam range. E2 used for defensive purposes mainly in CBG formation[All AEW&C/AEW for EW purpose and they are defensive weapons, like a san(s400) which can target and guide missiles, and they deployed in safe zone or under protection that why awacs killer missile developed , it true AEW&C can guide missile/drone etc, but it main usage is early warning. Currently we and chinese use helio based aew, ours having some 150km rf sensor range and the main advantage of naval aew [similar to AF] to track and identify low flying objects, which help to identify sea skimming missile at greater range[ mfstar equipped boats only can see skimming missile with in 25/30 km range]
All sam won't hit its targets, some will fail, both active and passive seeler have its advantage, for 32 barak, some 10 to 15 gets destroyed and with 3 boats some 40 plus and with AC defence like , missile, ciws, 10 more, just one wave, rest not so important, its like 2 mil missile 1 billion ship, PN use at least 30 at once. Also AEW is important to see sea skimming missile at longer range. thanks for replay.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

2010-20 period-17,In 2000-2010 period-24,In 2000-2010 period-23, ok, now what is the total nos of capital ships GOI permitted ?

I believe your calculation isn't right in the above quoted mssg.

The number of capital ships for which the GoI has accepted the necessity is 39.

 

[Love Charger]

Frens, recognise the missile.
Its a shivalik class frigate