Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Kuldeepm952]

The Vizags are costly because as with anything Israeli, MF- star is very costly. They charge a bomb. The vizag had to wait 2-3 years in the dock for the delivery issue for the same

First of all why didn't navy order sensor package beforehand and why this late order is placed, there's enough time between keel laying and outfitting.
Israeli systems costing such a bomb that the final ship costs like arleigh Burke destroyer, that's some serious depression you gave me there.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

People are still ranting "Our ships are under-armed vro"

Nahi Bhai air defense m overarmed hai, thoda aur kam kar lo VrO.
Chalo tum toh scenario hi bta do ki in case of conflict with chinese kese underarmed nahi hai, pit one battlegroup against another, 1v1ship toh hoga nahi real life m. People defending just 32 Barak 8 is comical. Agar Pakistan hi hote toh Maan lete, ab jab real bde bhaiya chinese aa gye h toh itna copium na kre.
Aur agar na bta pao toh phir copium phooko, sab sahi hai aur to kya, hum toh bas bol denge aur ho gya hamara ship ache se armed, logic toh pta nhi kya cheez h.

 

[arnabmit]

Nahi Bhai air defense m overarmed hai, thoda aur kam kar lo VrO.
Chalo tum toh scenario hi bta do ki in case of conflict with chinese kese underarmed nahi hai, pit one battlegroup against another, 1v1ship toh hoga nahi real life m.
Aur agar na bta pao toh phir copium phooko, sab sahi hai aur to kya, hum toh bas bol denge aur ho gya hamara ship ache se armed.

If you are serious about wargaming, let me know, will indulge. Else you and others are welcome to keep ranting. BTW, are you aware of the stated roles of our destroyers?

 

[Kuldeepm952]

If you are serious about wargaming, let me know, will indulge. Else you and others are welcome to keep ranting. BTW, are you aware of the stated roles of our destroyers?

Just tell me you really think with such a less no. of capable ships like p15 and p17(still to be inducted) and each having 32 Barak 8 against a group which consists of type55 and type52d and their frigate counterparts not even mentioning chinese SSNs and their catobar carriers certainly in numbers more than ours if they were to ever venture in Indian waters are capable enough to deter them. Even their one third navy would outnumber us.
That's all I would ask and I'll have my answer.
Please do tell the role of our destroyers, won't deter others from launching missiles towards it. Give IN the mk41 vls like USN and then tell me if they would still stick to 32 no.s of ad missiles.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

What is that on the side of Barak8 vls?

 

[arnabmit]

Just tell me you really think with such a less no. of capable ships like p15 and p17(still to be inducted) and each having 32 Barak 8 against a group which consists of type55 and type52d and their frigate counterparts not even mentioning chinese SSNs and their catobar carriers certainly in numbers more than ours if they were to ever venture in Indian waters are capable enough to deter them. Even their one third navy would outnumber us.
That's all I would ask and I'll have my answer.
Please do tell the role of our destroyers, won't deter others from launching missiles towards it. Give IN the mk41 vls like USN and then tell me if they would still stick to 32 no.s of ad missiles.

Again, if you are serious about wargaming, then be specific. How many ships of which class, what will be the total offensive and defensive package, where will the conflict take place, which path will the aggressor take to reach the conflict zone, how will they evade surface, sub-surface, air and space based monitoring assets, what will the Indian response package be, what will be the objective of the defensive stance, will it be deterrence, partial or complete destruction of the attacking force...
No point in discussing self-defeating vague scenarios.

 

[thebakofbakchod]

The Vizags are costly because as with anything Israeli, MF- star is very costly. They charge a bomb. The vizag had to wait 2-3 years in the dock for the delivery issue for the same

Whats the status of DRDO's one?

 

[THESIS THORON]

Whats the status of DRDO's one?

it is ready, lrmfr is installed on INS ANVESH.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Whats the status of DRDO's one?

and it has more range compared to mf-star

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

People are still ranting "Our ships are under-armed vro"

And no, VLSRSAM will not get added to capital ships, except IAC. VLSRSAM is for OPVs and corvettes.

Then how exactly IN replace Barak-1 for point defense role.
Navy is not stupid to realise the potential of the system as 2nd tier of AD

 

[THESIS THORON]

Then how exactly IN replace Barak-1 for point defense role.
Navy is not stupid to realise the potential of the system as 2nd tier of AD

is it present on vishakhapatnam and kolkata class ??

afaik vikramaditya has it

 

[thebakofbakchod]

and it has more range compared to mf-star

Thats good but it better be since the 2248 is almost 20 years old at this point since it was conceived

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

is it present on vishakhapatnam and kolkata class ??

afaik vikramaditya has it

As of now, Barak-1 is present on the Shivalik class frigates alongside the Shtil-1 SAM system and the INS Vikramaditya.
However, Navy won't be relying simply on Barak 8 and CIWS to take care of targets at both close range and long range, it will need another low cost, short range missile system for a tiered AD network, VL-SRSAM fits the bill perfectly.
Also, Barak 8 is expensive, each set costs close to $200 million which is why each IN ship has 32 Barak 8 missiles.
Also given that it has a max range of almost 50km, it holds the potential to replace the Shtil-1 aswell.

 

[arnabmit]

Then how exactly IN replace Barak-1 for point defense role.
Navy is not stupid to realise the potential of the system as 2nd tier of AD

Old capital ships without MF-STAR, which had Barak 1 will get VLSRSAM during MLU. Like Rajput class. 15A/15B will not get them.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Old capital ships without MF-STAR, which had Barak 1 will get VLSRSAM during MLU. Like Rajput class. 15A/15B will not get them.

Rajput class is on their way out, so no way they are getting them.
Delhi class, I agree.
But it would be stupid not to get VL-SRSAM onboard the P15A/P15B or for that matter any IN warship equipped with MFSTAR since those ships would only be limited to their 32 Barak 8 for all kinds of threats.
Ballooning Barak 8 nos beyond the current 32 would require investing another $200-300 million minimum in those billion dollar vessels.

 

[Lonewolf]

Rajput class is on their way out, so no way they are getting them.
Delhi class, I agree.
But it would be stupid not to get VL-SRSAM onboard the P15A/P15B or for that matter any IN warship equipped with MFSTAR since those ships would only be limited to their 32 Barak 8 for all kinds of threats.
Ballooning Barak 8 nos beyond the current 32 would require investing another $200-300 million minimum in those billion dollar vessels.

Cost of single vlsrsam is about less than a million , a 32 missile set will cost around mere 40 million including launcher .

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Again, if you are serious about wargaming, then be specific. How many ships of which class, what will be the total offensive and defensive package, where will the conflict take place, which path will the aggressor take to reach the conflict zone, how will they evade surface, sub-surface, air and space based monitoring assets, what will the Indian response package be, what will be the objective of the defensive stance, will it be deterrence, partial or complete destruction of the attacking force...
No point in discussing self-defeating vague scenarios.

Answering question with question, cool. I just wanted yes or no of my previous post. And regarding scenarios, I am interested in knowing which crazy scenario are you imagining where 32 Barak 8 would be enough for any kind of missile defense role. Other than that it's clear you won't budge from 32 ad superiority and you yourself said they won't be getting vlsrsam so that's another blow on tiered ad defense role so let's just don't go there, perhaps you should tell chinese, Europeans and Americans to stop wasting money and just get 32 ad missiles loadout and no tiered ad system. Your reasoning is clearly against the going global trend which every navy seems to following even chinese and Russians unless we got some 18th gen fighting techniques.

 

[vampyrbladez]

It's not that we didn't, it's just that we couldn't even if we want to.
We don't really had any good experience in naval systems back then and only now we have been working towards developing them.
US was not close to us but Russia was and guess what, they have different vls for different missiles. So its only natural that after operating Delhi class, which was very Soviet esque we would gravitate towards them. But this was not the case so as Kolkata was a serious departure from Soviet style warships, now what we got to equip our warships was systems which were from different countries and universal launched from them, I would be a damned idiot to even think so. We got no option and that's it.
Also mk41 vls was the only such system available and well we couldn't have them coz US. European Sylver VLS just came into being recently.

So are our ships armed poorly in air defense- yes. That's the price we way for foreign maal and not having indigenious one.
But now look at future, a UVLS is under construction by drdo which will house all indigenious missiles, which if IN supports fully and tells drdo what type of missiles they want, one huge part of the problem will be solved and drdo is capable enough as of now to solve them.
On radar front, we should be able to have next ships armed with our own radar.
I mean if IN wants it has options for future unlike in past

To make things clear for all members.

There is no silver bullet when dealing with AShMs. In an ideal scenario you need 2 SAM missiles for a decent chance at taking out 1 AShM.

Thus 2 Barak 8 should be able to take out 1 BrahMos. Thus for 16 BrahMos on a ship you need 32 Barak 8.

Even then there is no guarantee of success. Recently 4 x SM6 were launched against 2 SRBM targets and only 1 kill could be confirmed by the USN.

US Navy Destroyer Launches Four SM-6 Missiles against two SRBMs in latest MDA Test - Naval News

The U.S. Missile Defense Agency, in cooperation with the U.S. Navy, conducted Flight Test Aegis Weapon System 33 in the broad ocean area northwest of Hawaii, July 24.

www.navalnews.com

Another point of consideration is the uneven size of the larger BrahMos VLS as compared to the Barak 8 VLS unit.

The only way you can add more missiles is by having a standardized VLS unit like the DRDO Ship Launcher System.

https://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2020/07/about-minfield-breeching-solutions-ship.html


The Barak 8 has a range of upto 100 KMs. Barak 8 ER will have a range of upto 150 KMs. XRSAM will have a range of upto 350 KMs.

Thus for short range defence, we may need a new platform like the VL-SRSAM which can be easily adjusted onto our capital warships limited to 32 units.

 

[johnj]

As of now, Barak-1 is present on the Shivalik class frigates alongside the Shtil-1 SAM system and the INS Vikramaditya.
However, Navy won't be relying simply on Barak 8 and CIWS to take care of targets at both close range and long range, it will need another low cost, short range missile system for a tiered AD network, VL-SRSAM fits the bill perfectly.
Also, Barak 8 is expensive, each set costs close to $200 million which is why each IN ship has 32 Barak 8 missiles.
Also given that it has a max range of almost 50km, it holds the potential to replace the Shtil-1 aswell.

$300million plus for entire system including mf star, 35 to 40% of ship cost. Barak 8 system price which include mf star also.

 

[THESIS THORON]

$300million plus for entire system including mf star, 35 to 40% of ship cost. Barak 8 system price which include mf star also.

it will be better if we will make it more indegeneous