Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Steven Rogers]

Only trying to correct your earlier statement that '3 blades are foldable' - which creates a misconception that the issue is fully solved.

My thinking was that 4blades are required to be folded. Thanks for correcting that...

 

[Prashant12]

HAL's New Naval Utility Helicopter

 

[Steven Rogers]

Of the international OEMs, Leonardo is currently blacklisted. The Russians are also in the race, but the Navy doesn’t seem too keen on the Kamov choppers. Bell Helicopter’s Bell 429 and Sikorsky’s S-76 have certain non-compliance issues with respect to the Navy’s specific requirements. The companies could carry out changes, but this would involve expenditure.

The front-runner seems to be Airbus, which is trying to push AS565, a platform that’s more than 30 years old.

So far only 3re foreign oems have responded.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...ompanies-in-fray/amp_articleshow/69643257.cms

 

[Bhadra]

Of the international OEMs, Leonardo is currently blacklisted. The Russians are also in the race, but the Navy doesn’t seem too keen on the Kamov choppers. Bell Helicopter’s Bell 429 and Sikorsky’s S-76 have certain non-compliance issues with respect to the Navy’s specific requirements. The companies could carry out changes, but this would involve expenditure.

The front-runner seems to be Airbus, which is trying to push AS565, a platform that’s more than 30 years old.

Those factors, including technology vintage will definitely will be considered.
Under this proposal 60 % of the platform will be made by SP in India.
As it is ALH is 70% imported. So no big deal.
The main concern finally seems to be subsurface operations capabilities (Naval sensors/ radars, torpedos and depth charges etc)
Time on task - in case of ALH / NUH of HAL it is less.
Foldable rotors (auto folding within 3.5 m whereas HAL offers 5.1m manually foldable sagementaed blades which is still a problem)

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/search?q=Dhruv
IN SIMPLE TERMS, THE 5.5 TONNE DHRUV FALL BETWEEN TWO STOOLS. IT IS TOO LARGE AND HEAVY TO PERFORM THE ROLE (SEARCH & RESCUE, COMMUNICATIONS, ETC) THAT 3-TONNE HELOS LIKE THE CHEETAH AND THE CHETAK CURRENTLY DO… AND TOO SMALL AND LIGHT TO REPLACE 10-14 TONNE HELOS LIKE THE SEA KING AND THE KAMOV.

So it is Jai Hind !

 

[Enquirer]

My thinking was that 4blades are required to be folded. Thanks for correcting that...

It all depends on the rotor design. Sikorsky et al fold all four blades ( the rotor is oriented not in forward-back-right-left or N-S-W-E fashion, but NW-NE-SE-SW fashion).
Not sure how HAL intends to solve the problem though!
But displaying a half baked solution is quite cheesy of HAL!!!

 

[Steven Rogers]

Bhai Logo Rahane Do..

Fact one - Project under Strategic partnership model.
Fact two - HAL is not allowed to participate under SP Model since three other OEMs have responded.
Fact Three - HAL has not responded but through Kamov which also is illegal because HAL is not a private company.

If HAL is allowed then the SP Model has no meaning and MoD may as well throw the DPP out of the windows.

That ends the story,

Now can we discuss Airbus and Sikorsky proposals..........

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepri...2-bids-for-mega-navy-chopper-deal/229335/amp/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...or-indian-naval-utility-helicopter-de-457911/
https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...lity-helicopters/amp_articleshow/64227945.cms
https://nationaldefence.in/breaking...o-supply-nuh-with-private-partners-exclusive/

 

[Steven Rogers]

Those factors, including technology vintage will definitely will be considered.
Under this proposal 60 % of the platform will be made by SP in India.
As it is ALH is 70% imported. So no big deal.
The main concern finally seems to be subsurface operations capabilities (Naval sensors/ radars, torpedos and depth charges etc)
Time on task - in case of ALH / NUH of HAL it is less.
Foldable rotors (auto folding within 3.5 m whereas HAL offers 5.1m manually foldable sagementaed blades which is still a problem)

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/search?q=Dhruv
IN SIMPLE TERMS, THE 5.5 TONNE DHRUV FALL BETWEEN TWO STOOLS. IT IS TOO LARGE AND HEAVY TO PERFORM THE ROLE (SEARCH & RESCUE, COMMUNICATIONS, ETC) THAT 3-TONNE HELOS LIKE THE CHEETAH AND THE CHETAK CURRENTLY DO… AND TOO SMALL AND LIGHT TO REPLACE 10-14 TONNE HELOS LIKE THE SEA KING AND THE KAMOV.

So it is Jai Hind !

That shukla ji article came in 2008, when navy required around 250 helicopters to replace a cheetah, go and check the specifications of sikorsky76D and airbus s565 which are responding to the rfi, then you will know how wrong you are.

 

[Bhadra]

So far only 3re foreign oems have responded.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...ompanies-in-fray/amp_articleshow/69643257.cms

With four machines of course....

 

[Bhadra]

Of the international OEMs, Leonardo is currently blacklisted. The Russians are also in the race, but the Navy doesn’t seem too keen on the Kamov choppers. Bell Helicopter’s Bell 429 and Sikorsky’s S-76 have certain non-compliance issues with respect to the Navy’s specific requirements. The companies could carry out changes, but this would involve expenditure.

The front-runner seems to be Airbus, which is trying to push AS565, a platform that’s more than 30 years old.

The models offered are :

European manufacturer Airbus seems to be at an advantage with two platforms – the H 145M and the Panther AS565 – on offer for manufacturing in partnership with Mahindra Defence. The American side has offered the Sikorsky S 76D while Russia has offered the Kamov Ka 226T for the mega project.

 

[Bhadra]

That shukla ji article came in 2008, when navy required around 250 helicopters to replace a cheetah, go and check the specifications of sikorsky76D and airbus s565 which are responding to the rfi, then you will know how wrong you are.

Then we will have "Sada" ALH which is neither NUH nor a multirole naval helicopter ... HAL is a "majboori".....

 

[aarav]

LCA Navy

 

[Bhadra]

Panther AS 565​

General characteristics

• Crew: 1 or 2 pilots
• Capacity: 10 troops
• Length: 13.68 m (44 ft 11 in)
• Height: 3.97 m (13 ft 0 in)
• Empty weight: 2,380 kg (5,247 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 4,300 kg (9,480 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Turboméca Arriel 2C turboshaft, 635 kW (852 hp) each
• Main rotor diameter: 11.94 m (39 ft 2 in)
• Main rotor area: 111.98 m2 (1,205.3 sq ft)

Performance

• Maximum speed: 306 km/h (190 mph; 165 kn)
• Service ceiling: 5,865 m (19,242 ft)
• Rate of climb: 8.9 m/s (1,750 ft/min)

Armament

• Guns: Giat M621 20 mm (0.787 in) cannon pods.
• Rockets: 68 mm (2.677 in) or 70 mm (2.756 in) unguided rockets.
• Missiles:
  • Matra Mistral air-to-air missiles.
  • AS 15 TT anti-surface missiles.
  • HOT anti-tank missiles.
  • Mk46 or Whitehead A.244/S anti-submarine warfare torpedoes.

 

[Bhadra]

.....................................................................

 

[aarav]

Could be great Shore based AD Fighters as well as can carry Anti ship missiles

 

[Steven Rogers]

Panther AS 565​

General characteristics

• Crew: 1 or 2 pilots
• Capacity: 10 troops
• Length: 13.68 m (44 ft 11 in)
• Height: 3.97 m (13 ft 0 in)
• Empty weight: 2,380 kg (5,247 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 4,300 kg (9,480 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Turboméca Arriel 2C turboshaft, 635 kW (852 hp) each
• Main rotor diameter: 11.94 m (39 ft 2 in)
• Main rotor area: 111.98 m2 (1,205.3 sq ft)

Performance

• Maximum speed: 306 km/h (190 mph; 165 kn)
• Service ceiling: 5,865 m (19,242 ft)
• Rate of climb: 8.9 m/s (1,750 ft/min)

Armament

• Guns: Giat M621 20 mm (0.787 in) cannon pods.
• Rockets: 68 mm (2.677 in) or 70 mm (2.756 in) unguided rockets.
• Missiles:
  • Matra Mistral air-to-air missiles.
  • AS 15 TT anti-surface missiles.
  • HOT anti-tank missiles.
  • Mk46 or Whitehead A.244/S anti-submarine warfare torpedoes.

Wiki.... Has it demonstrated tail and rotor folding capability.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Could be great Shore based AD Fighters as well as can carry Anti ship missiles View attachment 35697 View attachment 35698 View attachment 35699

If it has to be shore based then others are way better in payload and range.....

 

[aarav]

If it has to be shore based then others are way better in payload and range.....

In its current configuration it can't operate from ACs ,don't take the prototype range and load as the final one as most probably LCA naval mk2 will get inducted in navy which will address the range, payload & manoeuvrability issues

 

[Steven Rogers]

In its current configuration it can't operate from ACs ,don't take the prototype range and load as the final one as most probably LCA naval mk2 will get inducted in navy which will address the range, payload & manoeuvrability issues

Mk1 has do demonstrate landing and takeoff from a carrier .....which it will do in the coming months... Its a td for mk2.

 

[Bhadra]

Wiki.... Has it demonstrated tail and rotor folding capability.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/as565-panther-helicopter/
The blades can be folded manually and are equipped with quick disconnect pins. The main rotor blades incorporate a carbon fibre reinforced plastic spar and are filled with a Nomex honeycomb material. The blades are corrosion and damage resistant.

and yes do not ask me these questions as I am not selling it ... I only started with a news item and you all have brought me here ! In the process HAL pants are down.... useless exercise.

 

[Prashant12]

Make in India: HAL offers Indian solution to Indian Navy’s requirement for Advanced Light Helicopter ‘Dhruv’

The Rs 21,738 crore deal for 111 Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) proposed to be `Made in India’ could tip in favour of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL). A top officer told Financial Express Online “The Company’s NUH is an Advanced Light Helicopter `Dhruv’ with customisation designed to meet all the operational requirements of India.”

Adding, “The flying machine can be fitted with torpedoes, Depth Charges & Missiles, Self Protection System (SPS) & Flight Crew Data (FCD). Besides having Software-defined radio (SDR), Data Link & SATCOM, these helicopters will have the main rotor blade folding and tail boom folding to enable stowage in Navy’s ship hangars.”

Earlier this year at the Aero India 2019, HAL had demonstrated the Tail Boom folding and Main Rotor folding of the Naval Utility Helicopter.

US-based Lockheed Martin’s Sikorsky Helicopters which has responded to the Express of Interest (EoI), is likely to drop out at the next level as it has multiple non-compliances. “Unless the Indian Navy dilutes its requirements at the Request for Proposal (RfP) Stage, the company might drop out since it is non-compliant to many of the specifications of the helicopter the navy is seeking,” a top official said.

Three companies Lockheed Martin’s Sikorsky Helicopter S 76D, European Airbus and Russia’s Kamov Ka 226T, have responded to the EoI floated by the defence ministry earlier this year. The companies last month submitted proposals to build their helicopters through an Indian industry designated as “strategic partner” (SP).

The European manufacturer Airbus has submitted proposals for two platforms – the H 145M and the Panther AS565 – to be manufactured in partnership with Mahindra Defence.

Under an Indo-Russian inter-governmental agreement (IGA), both HAL and Indo-Russian Helicopters Ltd (IRHL) already have a joint venture to manufacture the Kamov 226T light helicopter in India.

HAL on its own has offered its indigenous ALH for the NUH deal.

This will be the first acquisition under the SP procurement model when it is finalised. Under the SP model the OEM is expected to tie up with local Indian companies who are manufacturing major platforms in India with niche technologies and production knowhow supplied by a foreign OEM.

According to officials, Ministry of Defence (MoD) in the EoI has stated that the OEMs have been mandated to set up a dedicated manufacturing line, including design, integration and manufacturing processes for NUH in India. It had also said the OEM will have to make Indian manufacturing line as a global exclusive facility for the NUH platform being offered.

As has been reported by The Financial Express earlier in 2015, the Indian Navy had received as many as 10 bids from Indian companies for the NUH programme. However, in an effort to keep the process transparent, the navy had encouraged OEMs tying up with a single Indian partner.

Once the contract is finalised, 16 helicopters will come from the OEM directly and the balance will have to manufacture in India with almost 60 per cent indigenisation. In a process which will take a couple of months, all the technical bids will be scrutinised by the Indian Navy, before intensive trials start for evaluating the performance of each machine in different terrains and weather conditions.

https://www.financialexpress.com/de...-for-advanced-light-helicopter-dhruv/1600086/