Indian Naval Aviation

[AJSINGH]

right
so as of now shore based E2D will be okay for IN

 

[Emperor]

E-2d wont really serve Indias purpose.Currently we dont have any carrier that can launch E-2d.Even though we get a carrier to do so, its still no a markable achievement.E-2d with its turbo prop is a slow moving .I suspect its range of detection and tracking as compared to Phalcon.
even though IN wishes to have one, it has to let the bird take off from the shore.Which again is a logistical nightmare and clearly patrolling range issue.Since it is smaller it cant partrol a vast region like IOR as like Phalcons.
IN should sign a deal with Israel for 3 more phalcons for itself instead of going for E-2d.
And once DRDO comes out with its own AWACS, then we can further develope it with enhanced TR modules for both Xband and L-band.by the time NAL will come up with 70 seat regional Jet which can be used to host these new T-R modules with indigenous sonar suits to make it a multi desciplinary AWACS.
Since IN projected its need for a supercarriers with nuke propulsion there is a posibility for IRJ to show up in a naval variant.

 

[bhramos]

The E-2D AWACS was just cleared by US,
this means its not a done deal yet,
even F-18 with AESA was cleared for IAF, but not TOT of AESA.
the rules for induction of E-2D
1st India should think to build Catapult based Carriers,
2nd IN should approach some country with this Tech and modify its design from 45000 tns to 80000 tns minimum.
3rd it should be approved by our netas
4th we should built a shipyard capable of that size.
atlast it will only 4th IAC, as allready the work 2nd & 3rd has already began,

The ones India has asked for is land based. E2D will be taking off from land.
Hope you all saw that in the earlier posts.

Mama, E-2D is most efficient from AC only,
From land based platforms our P-8I is enough with its long Range capabilty,

 

[AJSINGH]

E-2d wont really serve Indias purpose.Currently we dont have any carrier that can launch E-2d.Even though we get a carrier to do so, its still no a markable achievement.E-2d with its turbo prop is a slow moving .I suspect its range of detection and tracking as compared to Phalcon.
even though IN wishes to have one, it has to let the bird take off from the shore.Which again is a logistical nightmare and clearly patrolling range issue.Since it is smaller it cant partrol a vast region like IOR as like Phalcons.
IN should sign a deal with Israel for 3 more phalcons for itself instead of going for E-2d.
And once DRDO comes out with its own AWACS, then we can further develope it with enhanced TR modules for both Xband and L-band.by the time NAL will come up with 70 seat regional Jet which can be used to host these new T-R modules with indigenous sonar suits to make it a multi desciplinary AWACS.
Since IN projected its need for a supercarriers with nuke propulsion there is a posibility for IRJ to show up in a naval variant.

Well are right in a way but u should know that as of now for imediate needs untill we IN has super carrier ( although that wont be anytime soon plus that will be a overkill for IN) we need some kind of AWACS .phalcon cant be used because that is land based radar not specifically desgined for maritime role whereas E2D is for maritime role
an yeh E2D is turbo prop but speed around 600km/h which is pretty okay and range is 2583km which is immpresive plus anyway IN will be accquiring A2A refullers then those refullers can refuel E2D while in the air .
another option can .we can buy Tu 142 bear from russia and ask isralie to fit maritime specific role phalcon in it .IN already operates them plus Tu 142 has range of 6500km .shore based

 

[nitesh]

AJ singh you are not adding anything substantial apart from repeating the same line that Phalcon is not configured for maritime role What is so specific point that it is impossible for phalcon to detect ships in sea. Can't the SAR mode be used for that is it impossible? Isn't IN has to pay for customization of E2D for compatibility in data links? And add to that the logistics and cost of keeping seperate crews for E2D and phalcons.

 

[AJSINGH]

AJ singh you are not adding anything substantial apart from repeating the same line that Phalcon is not configured for maritime role What is so specific point that it is impossible for phalcon to detect ships in sea. Can't the SAR mode be used for that is it impossible? Isn't IN has to pay for customization of E2D for compatibility in data links? And add to that the logistics and cost of keeping seperate crews for E2D and phalcons.

about Phalcon .u have to keep in mind the range of the aircraft suppose it is on Il 76 ,then range matters plus Maritime AWACS is not only for air survalence but also for anti ship and anti cruise missile .SAR mode can used but there is something called " ground clutter : which is higher in ocean than it is on the ground ,so if at al we go Phalcon we have to tweek the radar and data processing unit .
no aircraft comes with any modification ,it is inevitable that E2D will be customised for IN needs
Seperate crews for E2D ,not much a porblem for IN ,

 

[nitesh]

about Phalcon .u have to keep in mind the range of the aircraft suppose it is on Il 76 ,then range matters plus Maritime AWACS is not only for air survalence but also for anti ship and anti cruise missile .SAR mode can used but there is something called " ground clutter : which is higher in ocean than it is on the ground ,so if at al we go Phalcon we have to tweek the radar and data processing unit .
no aircraft comes with any modification ,it is inevitable that E2D will be customised for IN needs
Seperate crews for E2D ,not much a porblem for IN ,

You are again repeating the same point what is the range has to do? A2A refuelling will take care of that. Are you saying range of IL 76 is limited?

What the P8i are for only hunting subs? Can't they se the ships and fire? AWACS is for detection and coordination period.

A SAR mode is for finding the ground elemts may be little more power and thigs are done. Don't u at all think about logistics?

 

[bhramos]

about Phalcon .u have to keep in mind the range of the aircraft suppose it is on Il 76 ,then range matters plus Maritime AWACS is not only for air survalence but also for anti ship and anti cruise missile .SAR mode can used but there is something called " ground clutter : which is higher in ocean than it is on the ground ,so if at al we go Phalcon we have to tweek the radar and data processing unit .
no aircraft comes with any modification ,it is inevitable that E2D will be customised for IN needs
Seperate crews for E2D ,not much a porblem for IN ,

yeah u r always right but at present we dont need E-2D is for Future Carrier only, but atpresent we can manage whole Indian borders with 3-6 Awacs and Su-30MKI mini-Awacs.
as for sea we have P-8I Maritime & Anti-Submarine Warfare with Again Su-30MKI and Mig-29K or Until 2015 Jaguars too,
I already said we are not going to induct a Carrier with Catapult until 2020.

 

[ppgj]

AJS
the only use E2D has is the mobile force projection if it is carrier based. it is for countries with expeditionary intentions like the USA. india has neither carrier capable of E2D nor has the intentions of being expeditionary. india is more happy defending its coastline for economic and general security. so it can be happy with its awacs and heli aew.

 

[AJSINGH]

You are again repeating the same point what is the range has to do? A2A refuelling will take care of that. Are you saying range of IL 76 is limited?

What the P8i are for only hunting subs? Can't they se the ships and fire? AWACS is for detection and coordination period.

A SAR mode is for finding the ground elemts may be little more power and thigs are done. Don't u at all think about logistics?

look range matters if you shore based operations ( ie flying from shore ) Il 76 range is greater than the E2D , all i am trying to say is if at all we should for AWACS we should be fit it on Il 76 due to its greater range or better yet Tu 142

about P-8I It is intended to conduct anti-submarine warfare, shipping interdiction, and to engage in an electronic intelligence (ELINT) role.
True AWACS is for coordination of air borne operations and they cant engage

SAR mode can be used , but better to have dedicated radar for maritime role , in the mean time IN can as IAF phalcon for operations ,in the long run it is emperitive that we have dedicated maritime AWACS

and plz do explain ahat do u mean by logistics?

 

[AJSINGH]

yeah u r always right but at present we dont need E-2D is for Future Carrier only, but atpresent we can manage whole Indian borders with 3-6 Awacs and Su-30MKI mini-Awacs.
as for sea we have P-8I Maritime & Anti-Submarine Warfare with Again Su-30MKI and Mig-29K or Until 2015 Jaguars too,
I already said we are not going to induct a Carrier with Catapult until 2020.

or if at all IN thinks that it should not depend on IAF for maritime strike role then they should have dedicated maritime strike fighter ,for example Ships defence done by N-LCA, long range missions by Mig 29K, Electronic warfare by P-8I, AWACS role by E2D, anti sub and anti ship by helicopters , etc as of now IN needs the help of IAF for strike missions but induction of Mig 29 k is a good sign

 

[AJSINGH]

AJS
the only use E2D has is the mobile force projection if it is carrier based. it is for countries with expeditionary intentions like the USA. india has neither carrier capable of E2D nor has the intentions of being expeditionary. india is more happy defending its coastline for economic and general security. so it can be happy with its awacs and heli aew.

well if u see the super carrier operated by USA are only for force projection over weak countries ,countries like India know that 4 or 5 bhramos fired can take down these super aircraft carrier.so much for these 12 billion dollar super ships

U.S. Aircraft Carriers Vulnerable to Attack?: The Ticking Time Bomb

 

[ppgj]

or if at all IN thinks that it should not depend on IAF for maritime strike role then they should have dedicated maritime strike fighter ,for example Ships defence done by N-LCA, long range missions by Mig 29K, Electronic warfare by P-8I, AWACS role by E2D, anti sub and anti ship by helicopters , etc as of now IN needs the help of IAF for strike missions but induction of Mig 29 k is a good sign

P-8i is not for ew. it is an asw bird but which can spy too. as for the dedicated maritime strikers-what are mig 29k, jaguars? we will have awacs with one already in. heli's are already there for the rest of your post.

well if u see the super carrier operated by USA are only for force projection over weak countries ,countries like India know that 4 or 5 bhramos fired can take down these super aircraft carrier.so much for these 12 billion dollar super ships

U.S. Aircraft Carriers Vulnerable to Attack?: The Ticking Time Bomb

exactly my point. we don't want to project force for the sake of it. we do it for just for our own sake. as for your link- nothing is invulnerable. but at the same time with formidable defence they carry it is easier said than done.

 

[AJSINGH]

P-8i is not for ew. it is an asw bird but which can spy too. as for the dedicated maritime strikers-what are mig 29k, jaguars? we will have awacs with one already in. heli's are already there for the rest of your post.


exactly my point. we don't want to project force for the sake of it. we do it for just for our own sake. as for your link- nothing is invulnerable. but at the same time with formidable defence they carry it is easier said than done.

well to some extent P-8I can do electronic warfare.V-22 osprey modified into AWACS role that will fit IN needs well

about the defences if u have read the full post then u will know that the author has also talked about ship defense too

 

[SATISH]

I am starting this new thread and request the Mods to make it sticky. The Indian Naval aviation grows at a very fast pace. So I think this will be a valid sticky thread to discuss the naval aviation.

 

[SATISH]

Aircrafts and Helicopters (in service)

SEA HARRIER

British Aerospace
Sea Harrier FRS MK 51/T
Number/Type : 17
Operational Speed : 640 Kt
Service ceiling : 51200 ft
Range : 800 NM (1440 KM)

SEA KING 42
Sea King 42/42A/42B/42C
Number/Types : 1/2/19/6
Operational Speed : 112 Kt
(208 km/h)
Service ceiling : 11500 ft
Range : 664 n miles (1280 KM)

CHETAK
Aerospatiale (HAL)
SA 319B Chetak (Aloutte III)
Number/Type : 58/10
Operational Speed : 113 kt
Service ceiling : 10500 ft
Range : 290 n miles (540 km)

KAMOV
Kamov
Ka-28/ Helix B
Number/Type : 12
Operational Speed : 110 kt
Service ceiling : 12,000 ft
Range : 270 n miles (500 km)

Ka 25
Hormone
Number/Type : 6
Operational Speed : 110 kt
Service ceiling : 11,500 ft
Range : 217 n miles (400 km)

ISLANDER
Number/Type : 13
Operational Speed : 150 kt
Service ceiling : 18,900 ft
Range : 1500 n miles (2775 km)

ADVANCED LIGHT HELICOPTER
HAL Advanced Light Helicopter
Number/Type : 6
Operational Speed : 156 kt
Service ceiling : 9850 ft
Range : 216 n miles (400 km)

DORNIER
Dornier 228
Number/Type : 15
Operational Speed : 200 kt
Service ceiling : 28000 ft
Range : 940 n miles (1,740 km)

IL 38
Ilyushin II - 38
Number/Type : 5
Operational Speed : 347 kt
Service ceiling : 32,800 ft
Range : 3,887 n miles (7,200 km)



TU 142
TU 142
Tupolev Tu - 142 M (Bear F)
Number/Type : 8 (8)
Operational Speed : 500 kt
Service ceiling : 45,000 ft
Range : 6,775 n miles (12,550 km)

KIRAN Mk 1/1A
Max Level speed 375 kt
Service ceiling : 30,000 ft
Range : 650 n miles (1200 km)

Courtesy: http://indiannavy.nic.in/helicoptor.htm

 

[SATISH]

Projected acquisitions

P-8I Poseidon
Numbers-8( ordered. Delivery starting 2013)

MiG 29K
Numbers-12 (ordered. Delivery starting in late October 2009)

 

[SATISH]

Indian Naval Air Squadrons

1. INAS 300 (WHITE TIGERS) SEA HARRIERS BASED AT GOA
2. INAS 310 (COBRAS) DORNIERS BASED AT GOA
3. INAS 312 (ALBATROSS) TU 142M BASED AT ARAKKONAM
4. INAS 315 (WINGED STALLIONS) IL 38 BASED AT GOA
5. INAS 318 (HAWKS) DORNIER BASED AT PORT BLAIR
6. INAS 321 (ANGELS) CHETAK/ALLOUETTE III. SQUADRON BASED AT MUMBAI WITH A SAR FLIGHT WITH EACH AIR STATION
7. INAS 330 (HARPOONS) SEAKING 42B BASED AT MUMBAI
8. INAS 333 (EAGLES) KAMOV 25 BASED AT VISAKHAPATNAM
9. INAS 336 (FLAMING ARROWS) SEAKING BASED AT KOCHI
10. INAS 339 (FALCONS) KAMOV 28 BASED AT GOA
11. INAS 550 (FLYING FISH) ISLANDER AND DORNIERS BASED AT KOCHI
12. INAS 551 (PHANTOMS) KIRAN MK1/1A/2 BASED AT GOA
13. INAS 561 HELICOPTER TRAINING SCHOOL. CHETAK BASED AT ARAKKONAM
14. MARINE COMMANDO FLIGHT (ZAPPERS), SEAKING 42C BASED AT MUMBAI

Courtesy: Indian Naval Air Squadrons

 

[Pintu]

Great thread Satish , a thread dedicated to India's Naval Aviation was much needed , really well job done , kudos for it. I will watch the thread with great interest. I request the respected Mods , SuperMods and Administartors to make the thread Sticky.

Regards

 

[SATISH]

Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft

IL 38 May

Type: Long range maritime patrol aircraft.

Aircraft delivered to date: IN301 (1977) - upgraded to 'SD' standard
...................................IN303 (1977) - upgraded to 'SD' standard
...................................IN305 (1983) - upgraded to 'SD' standard
...................................IN306 (to be delivered in 2008) - upgraded to 'SD' standard
...................................IN307 (to be delivered in 2008) - upgraded to 'SD' standard

Note: A tragic mid-air crash occurred on 01 October 2002, during the squadron's silver jubilee celebrations. IN302 and IN304, which were flying parallel to each other, had a mid-air collision above the Dabolim airport in Goa. All twelve aircrew (six aboard each aircraft) were killed and both aircraft were also destroyed.

Dimensions (External): Wingspan - 37.42 metres (122.9 feet).
..............................Length (overall) - 36.9 metres (129.1 feet).
..............................Height (overall) - 10.7 metres (33.4 feet).

Engine: The IL-38 has four 3125kW (4190 ehp) Ivchenko Al-20M turboprops, driving four blade propellers.

Accommodation: The IL-38 has a flight crew of three personnel, which includes a Pilot, a Co-Pilot and a Flight Engineer. The operational crew is believed to be nine personnel, which includes a tactical coordinator, sensor operators, a MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) operator and observers.

Operational Speed: 347 knots (645 km/h).

Service Ceiling: 32,800 ft. (10,000 meters).

Range: 3887 nautical miles (7200 km).

Sensors: The IL-38 has a search & attack radar (NATO: Wet Eye), a MAD (magnetic anomaly detector) system, an ESM (electronic support measures) system and numerous active & passive sonobuoys.

Weapons: The IL-38 can carry torpedoes, FAB 250 freefall bombs and depth charges. The aircraft has been retrofitted to carry the Sea Eagle AShM. The BrahMos ASCM is expected to replace the Sea Eagle AShM in due course. The addition of the R-73RDM2 short-range, air-to-air missile is also being contemplated.

Role: Shore-based, long-range ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare) recon into the Indian Ocean.

Comments: The IL-38s formally entered service with the Indian Navy on 01 October 1977, with the commissioning of INAS 315 Winged Stallions at INS Hansa in Dabolim, Goa. The squadron was formed with just three aircraft in 1977 (IN301 to IN303) and two more examples (IN304 & IN305) joined the squadron in 1983. The first three aircraft were from ex-AV-MF (Russia's Naval Air Force) stocks and latter two aircraft could also have been acquired from the same source, but that is yet to be confirmed beyond reliable doubt. The IL-38s regularly fly 10 - 12 hour endurance sorties over the Arabian Sea and have proved to be reliable in the roles of maritime reconnaissance (MR), anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and search & rescue (SAR). Due to the loss of two aircraft, Russia donated two aircraft free of charge from ex-AV-MF (Russia's Naval Air Force) stocks.

The Indian Navy launched an upgrade program to extend the life of the IL-38 maritime patrol aircraft and a $150 million contract was signed in September 2001 to modernize five aircraft. Leninets Institute of Russia was given the task of fitting the Morskoy Zmei (Sea Dragon) multi-mission avionics & electronic warfare suite and the Ilyushin Aircraft Construction Company first checks & upgrades the airframes and engines prior to fitting the Sea Dragon system, designed by Leninets. The first aircraft (IN-305) arrived in Russia for the upgrade on 29 March 2002 and returned to India on 15 January 2006. This modernization will allow the aircraft to remain operational for 15 years. The aircraft were flown from India to Russia where the refits took place. The upgraded aircraft go by the designation IL-38SD and costs US $30 million per aircraft.

The fully digital Sea Dragon suite is designed to detect & intercept surface vessels and submarines, as well as detect mines and carry out surveillance. It can track more than 30 targets at one time from a distance of up to 320 kilometers. The suite can also detect airborne targets and can be linked to the Russian GLONASS (GLObal NAvigation Satellite System). It encompasses a new synthetic-aperture/inverse-synthetic-aperture radar located in a canoe fairing on the belly, a high-resolution FLIR (forward-looking infra-red) sensor, a LLTV (low-light television) camera, a new ESM (electronic-support-measures) system and a new MAD (magnetic anomaly detector) system in the aft section of the aircraft. The IL-38s have also been fitted with radio-frequency and infrared sensors, as well as decoys. Indian elements are a key part of the upgrade with DRDO (Defence Research & Development Organisation) supplying the aircraft's new electronic intelligence system, electronic countermeasures station system, digital firing decoys and radio communication system.

A number of media outlets reported in September 2007 that the Indian Navy has suspended payments for the $150 million contract, as the Sea Dragon suite has not lived up to expectations. The system allegedly failed to discover a submarine that was at the target distance from it and thus the Indian Navy has asked for additional tests to be conducted before further payments and delivery of aircraft take place. Viktor Livanov, CEO of the Ilyushin Aircraft Construction Company, states that there is nothing wrong with the system or the aircraft and that the Indian Navy is putting forward more demands to the technical characteristics of the aircraft not stipulated in the contract. He noted, "All the functions of Sea Dragon were proven during live tests, but India continues to insist on further improvements. But that can't continue indefinitely." It was reported in late 2008, that all problems were resolved with the Sea Dragon suite and the aircraft is performing as per expectations.

Courtesy: Bharat-Rakshak