Indian MBRLS Pinaka Thread

[mist_consecutive]

Hmm, is unguided MRLS even effective in today's warfare? They have an area effect and cause a huge amount of civilian casualties, plus a false sense of effectiveness.

What we are seeing in Ladakh is that China is very meticulous in entrenching each and every piece of equipment, which means if the munition is not hitting the target at the dead center (~within 2-3m) then the target is hardly even damaged.

Instead, we can focus on swarm drones and loitering munitions which are extremely precise and cheaper than one single Pinaka round.

 

[The Shrike]

Estimating from length of missile.

That flag could easily be like 50m further ahead of the rocket from the perspective of the camera and we wouldn't be able to tell from the angle the photo was taken.

 

[flanker99]

Hmm, is unguided MRLS even effective in today's warfare? They have an area effect and cause a huge amount of civilian casualties, plus a false sense of effectiveness.

What we are seeing in Ladakh is that China is very meticulous in entrenching each and every piece of equipment, which means if the munition is not hitting the target at the dead center (~within 2-3m) then the target is hardly even damaged.

Instead, we can focus on swarm drones and loitering munitions which are extremely precise and cheaper than one single Pinaka round.

think they are still as much effective as normal artillery i mean neither are very accurate but really usefull in the hands of capable users and cheap

 

[Lonewolf]

Hmm, is unguided MRLS even effective in today's warfare? They have an area effect and cause a huge amount of civilian casualties, plus a false sense of effectiveness.

What we are seeing in Ladakh is that China is very meticulous in entrenching each and every piece of equipment, which means if the munition is not hitting the target at the dead center (~within 2-3m) then the target is hardly even damaged.

Instead, we can focus on swarm drones and loitering munitions which are extremely precise and cheaper than one single Pinaka round.

You sure about price

 

[karn]

Hmm, is unguided MRLS even effective in today's warfare? They have an area effect and cause a huge amount of civilian casualties, plus a false sense of effectiveness.

What we are seeing in Ladakh is that China is very meticulous in entrenching each and every piece of equipment, which means if the munition is not hitting the target at the dead center (~within 2-3m) then the target is hardly even damaged.

Instead, we can focus on swarm drones and loitering munitions which are extremely precise and cheaper than one single Pinaka round.

I really doubt that we have image recognition so well done (even in the near future) that all this will happen so easily .. And if they are radio controlled then the enemy has many options of stopping them. And drones are not cheap .. A loitering drone carrying a 100 kg payload will not be cheap at all.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Estimating from length of missile.

Object in the image are distant than they appear.

How did you arrive at that value? TIA

My though exactly.

 

[mist_consecutive]

think they are still as much effective as normal artillery i mean neither are very accurate but really usefull in the hands of capable users and cheap

I mean, artillery can be super effective with a spotter. With MBRLs you shoot your load and then go back because now reload will take some 30-45 mins if not more. I am not sure if trajectory correction even exists for MBRLs, because they generally hit targets way outside observation.

You sure about price

Taking the above chart for the guided Pinaka MBRL round (70 lakh) per round, and lets say unguided is half of that (35 lakh), a homemade-loitering munition should cost something around that if not more. For a benchmark, US-made switchblade kamikaze drones cost ~50 lakh. I can't find the cost of any Indian loitering munition.

I really doubt that we have image recognition so well done (even in the near future) that all this will happen so easily .. And if they are radio controlled then the enemy has many options of stopping them.

We do have image recognition, that I can assure you. Bold, not really.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Hmm, is unguided MRLS even effective in today's warfare? They have an area effect and cause a huge amount of civilian casualties, plus a false sense of effectiveness.

What we are seeing in Ladakh is that China is very meticulous in entrenching each and every piece of equipment, which means if the munition is not hitting the target at the dead center (~within 2-3m) then the target is hardly even damaged.

Instead, we can focus on swarm drones and loitering munitions which are extremely precise and cheaper than one single Pinaka round.

Availability, range, mobility, destructive potential and cost effectiveness of MRLS is much higher than swarm drones.
One of the biggest limiting factor against swarm drones is the amount of real time intelligence it requires along with communication bottleneck. MRLS is much effective.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't invest in swarm drones but we shouldn't do it on expense of MRLS.
What we need is sub-meter accuracy for Pinaka. We should carry forward the development of this system.

 

[karn]

We do have image recognition, that I can assure you. Bold, not really.

An image recognition system depends on very beefy hardware .. Not something small drones can do by themselves . And to make it reliable massive libraries of images of enemy equipment would have to be pictured in all different backgrounds.. a project if its happening is sure being kept real secret.
Radio controlled drones are basically 2 Way CLOS munitions ... a supposed obsolete technology.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I really doubt that we have image recognition so well done (even in the near future) that all this will happen so easily .. And if they are radio controlled then the enemy has many options of stopping them. And drones are not cheap .. A loitering drone carrying a 100 kg payload will not be cheap at all.

We do have image recognition, that I can assure you. Bold, not really.

The problem with swarm drones is not image recognition. Computer Vision is a well matured field in India.
The two main problem with swarm drones currently are

1. One must have adequate intelligence on enemy formation for swarm drone attacks to be successful
2. Communication bottlenecks

 

[Tiwariji]

Hmm, is unguided MRLS even effective in today's warfare? They have an area effect and cause a huge amount of civilian casualties, plus a false sense of effectiveness.

What we are seeing in Ladakh is that China is very meticulous in entrenching each and every piece of equipment, which means if the munition is not hitting the target at the dead center (~within 2-3m) then the target is hardly even damaged.

Instead, we can focus on swarm drones and loitering munitions which are extremely precise and cheaper than one single Pinaka round.

Pinaka rocket can carry 100 kg to 250 kg warhead . At 60-80 meter CEP it can do a lot damage to entire area with few missile with high explosive fragments/cluster munition it Carries . A loitering munition can carry 5/10 kg of warhead may be . May be both have their separate uses .

 

[karn]

The problem with swarm drones is not image recognition. Computer Vision is a well matured field in India.
The two main problem with swarm drones currently are

1. One must have adequate intelligence on enemy formation for swarm drone attacks to be successful
2. Communication bottlenecks

What I am doubtful of is the accuracy of said computer vision ..This is easily one of those things that will succeed once and then fail in different scenarios.. to make it too unreliable.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Thanks. Hopefully we get more too

Yup, there are plans to induct another 6 regiments, as per recent reports.
Overall, 23 regiments are planned for induction by 2025, don't know how much that goalpost has changed since 2025 is barely 3 years away.
Each regiment has 18-19 launchers further spread out into 3 batteries of 6 launchers each.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

What I am doubtful of is the accuracy of said computer vision ..This is easily one of those things that will succeed once and then fail in different scenarios.. to make it too unreliable.

That is why we need good intelligence beforehand.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

True. HIMARS have a accuracy of 1-2 m.

More you spend on guidence, accuracy improves. If accuracy of 1-2 meter is achieved, it is a missile not rocket. A highly sophisticated guidance might have gone into it like ring laser gyro or terminal guidance. This will increase the cost manyfold. Prahar is fired like mbrl but called missile because of its sophisticsted guidence.

 

[karn]

That is why we need good intelligence beforehand.

Don't disagree .. But what I mean is right now .. Its a complicated matter for a CV to say for sure that a red car a red car .. If it is on sandy soil, grassy soil snow in different lighting etc etc .. In this military application there are many enemy equipment whose images we will not get in all said scenarios .. we will 100% have to build mock ups so that the CV system can be trained against it. And the the enemy can screw with you .. Does the CV differentiate between a target and an image of a target.
If they paint their vehicles in funny colours ?

have a meme

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

View attachment 174183

This seems to be an early testing version, today's Pinaka MBRL reloader vehicles is vastly different and vastly superior in terms of reload speeds, reloading is quite similar to the HIMARS

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Any particular reason as to why Guided Pinaka's CEP is 60-80m compared to HIMARS's 5m CEP?
Both seem to employ GPS guidance.

The guidance mechanism was developed in cooperation with IMI, which likely means its similar to the EXTRA rocket artillery system which has a CEP of 10m.

 

[mokoman]

Don't disagree .. But what I mean is right now .. Its a complicated matter for a CV to say for sure that a red car a red car .. If it is on sandy soil, grassy soil snow in different lighting etc etc .. In this military application there are many enemy equipment whose images we will not get in all said scenarios .. we will 100% have to build mock ups so that the CV system can be trained against it. And the the enemy can screw with you .. Does the CV differentiate between a target and an image of a target.
If they paint their vehicles in funny colours ?

have a meme
View attachment 174258

eastern ladakh and across LAC is great for autonomous ai swarms . no trees , little vegetation , no urban areas. AI can easily pick up convoy of PLA vehicles moving along roads or deployed across LAC and hit them.

 

[karn]

eastern ladakh and across LAC is great for autonomous ai swarms . no trees , little vegetation , no urban areas. AI can easily pick up convoy of PLA vehicles moving along roads or deployed across LAC and hit them.

Eastern ladakh is the most difficult of all . The change in elevation itself makes it complicated.
The rest are platform related. Artillery works better in the thin air than anything propeller driven.
I'm not saying its impossible .. but this is one of those technologies like scram jet, railgun .. still needs a lot of work.