Indian Ballistic Missile Defense System

[northernarunachalpradesh]

earlier it was uncle now Israeli too want their share of our BMD pie.

India, Israel to Build Anti-Missile System | Defense News | defensenews.com



we are moving to PDV and AD1 and AD2 development and they are still on PAD................:taunt1:

It is about C4I and The proposed missile defense program will be a network of air defense systems and radars from India and Israel.

 

[sayareakd]

Agni-5 to be ready for induction in armed forces by next year | The Indian Express

On the Ballistic Missile Defence system, he said the first test of the frozen configuration will be tested within a month's time.
To a query on India's anti-satellite capability, the DRDO chief said the kill vehicle (missile) of the BMD along with the launcher of the Agni missile can be used for demonstrating this capability but so far, the country does not want to showcase it as it is against having debris and other unwanted materials in space.

 

[sayareakd]

It is about C4I and The proposed missile defense program will be a network of air defense systems and radars from India and Israel.

news report says this

The executive added that additional missile systems, both short range and medium range, will be tailor-made for use by India.

and

The Rafael executive said his company has offered to build a dedicated C4I system for the program. India does not yet have a C4I system for missile defense threats, the executive added. â– 

if you read the report of AAD last test here it was done on full real time trial mode.... therefore all the C4I are in place, ofcourse no harm in having look at their system.

about the additional missile they might try to make it primary missile (like T90s tank as adhoc purchase in emergency made full MBT).

 

[arnabmit]

Sir, IMHO, Israel help is sought for the Phase II (5000km) system. The C4I system they are talking about is for the Phase II ICBM category, not the Phase I (2000km) SRBM/IRBM category of our BMD which is already with us.

I think the Israel offer is the (Israel+US) Arrow 3 BMD system where the Israeli tech would be shared with India, in return for DRDO developing an alternate tech for the US (Raytheon) made components. This way India would gain the 5000km radar, C&C and exo-atmospheric interceptor, and Israel would still have the Arrow 3 BMD in case US pulls the plug.

news report says this


and


if you read the report of AAD last test here it was done on full real time trial mode.... therefore all the C4I are in place, ofcourse no harm in having look at their system.

about the additional missile they might try to make it primary missile (like T90s tank as adhoc purchase in emergency made full MBT).

 

[Eastman]

It is about C4I and The proposed missile defense program will be a network of air defense systems and radars from India and Israel.

Nation faces major cyber threat from imported defence systems, DRDO Chief | idrw.org

 

[sayareakd]

Sir, IMHO, Israel help is sought for the Phase II (5000km) system. The C4I system they are talking about is for the Phase II ICBM category, not the Phase I (2000km) SRBM/IRBM category of our BMD which is already with us.

I think the Israel offer is the (Israel+US) Arrow 3 BMD system where the Israeli tech would be shared with India, in return for DRDO developing an alternate tech for the US (Raytheon) made components. This way India would gain the 5000km radar, C&C and exo-atmospheric interceptor, and Israel would still have the Arrow 3 BMD in case US pulls the plug.

I think right now if we dont have 5k radar then at least one that has range of 2500 or more. Recent A5 tests are hints.

 

[arnabmit]

Sir, the reports state that the A5 tests were monitored by multiple short range radars placed all along its flight path. It was not monitored by a single long range radar.

I think right now if we dont have 5k radar then at least one that has range of 2500 or more. Recent A5 tests are hints.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Aim for missiles to hit target

A BMD should seek to intercept an enemy missile simultaneously in exo-atmosphere — or outside atmosphere — (called PAD interceptor by the DRDO) and endo-atmosphere — inside atmosphere (called AAD interceptor by the DRDO) as high as possible so that if one interceptor misses the target, the other should be able to kill the latter. The height of 30km is the dividing line between atmosphere and space; below 30km is the atmosphere and above 30km is space — two medium with different characteristics. The other issue concerns the nuclear warhead. As a general rule, the nuclear chain reaction, which then cannot be controlled, gets activated at about 10km above the earth. If the nuclear warhead gets a direct hit before it drops to this low height, its nuclear core will not get activated and it will not burst. Thus, an interceptor missile with conventional warhead should only be used if it has 100 per cent accuracy to hit the bull's eye. The preferred option, therefore, is interceptor with nuclear warhead to kill a hostile nuclear missile ideally in exo-atmosphere. In this case, a nuclear blast which is extremely powerful, and not a direct hit, on the enemy's nuclear warhead will suffice to inactivate the hostile missile and the nuclear debris will remain suspended in space. In short, it should be a nuclear warhead for a nuclear warhead kill.

What should be the yield of such an interceptor warhead?

 

[Eastman]

What should be the yield of such an interceptor warhead?

Category:Nuclear anti-aircraft weapons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[arnabmit]

A nuke tipped exo-atmospheric interceptor is a bad piece of imagination, and is actually pretty suicidal. The EMP discharge from such an interceptor would not only render most LEO satellites in the hemisphere as space junk, but would render most of the electronics on the ground of the launching country dead. Its like firing a grenade to kill a housefly instead of using a fly-swatter.

Did you know that the US is less scared of a Chinese nuke hitting the US and more scared of if China explodes a nuke 100km above the US? China would have to hit the US with 50+ nukes to wipe out the western seaboard, whereas exploding 2 nukes 100km above US would render the entire western seaboard electronically dead.

What should be the yield of such an interceptor warhead?

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

A nuke tipped exo-atmospheric interceptor is a bad piece of imagination, and is actually pretty suicidal. The EMP discharge from such an interceptor would not only render most LEO satellites in the hemisphere as space junk, but would render most of the electronics on the ground of the launching country dead. Its like firing a grenade to kill a housefly instead of using a fly-swatter.

Did you know that the US is less scared of a Chinese nuke hitting the US and more scared of if China explodes a nuke 100km above the US? China would have to hit the US with 50+ nukes to wipe out the western seaboard, whereas exploding 2 nukes 100km above US would render the entire western seaboard electronically dead.

I too have read about the problems you mentioned. And that is why I was wondering if there are any safe limits?

 

[LalTopi]

Agni-5 to be ready for induction in armed forces by next year | The Indian Express

On the Ballistic Missile Defence system, he said the first test of the frozen configuration will be tested within a month's time.

This could be the PDV test that was earlier slated by Indian Express to be in January.
DRDO Planning to Test-fire High-altitude 'Killer' Missile in January - The New Indian Express

 

[northernarunachalpradesh]

Nation faces major cyber threat from imported defence systems, DRDO Chief | idrw.org

In communication and network world system have a low life span(life cycle) .Things get outdated every year or so.So itz better to have around the clock JV just for communication system and networks.We should create our own networking companys like Broadcom,qualcomm,ZTC etc.

Our defence companies should be levraged on commercil companies.thatz the only way ahead for self reliance.

 

[Archer]

I guess he is in a better place than you to have the idea about what he says-

He is doing a constrictive criticism in a polite manner-- the issues highlighted are valid- and DRDO rather than a marketing agency should focus more on the hard work as some other agencies like the ISRO for example- or BARC-

Coming to the propellant part- for anti-ballistic missile to be economically feasible its cost should be a fraction of the missile it intercepts- the lesser the better- you cannot have a A4/A3 intercepting a Shaheen 2 or any other missile for that matter- the cost would be extremely high as for each shaheen you would have 20 or so(take the number as an example the actual number can only be assumed after doing mathematical calculations)
interceptors waiting since you cannot predict its path and prepare with say a couple of interceptors and also there are a number of targets it can take-
Hence the missile has to be economical hence smaller size-higher speed-better propellant required-

Buying a BMD is not a solution every one knows that-

This is Pravin Sawheny you are talking about, a long time DRDO baiter, wrong on multiple counts when it comes to anything technology related, and lets just say, not a neutral person by any means when it comes to pushing certain POVs.

Also, he is not a serving IA officer (thank goodness for small mercies). For several reasons, he is no longer there & runs the Force newsmagazine, which, lets just say, is not exactly a paragon of objective coverage.

In short, I wouldn't even waste time trying to dissect his arguments because even a cursory glance shows his bias & lack of objectivity combined with shoddy research making a mockery out of his claims.

For instance - "slow speed Prithvi". Apparently, DRDO is so stupid that it did not modify the Prithvi to be a representative target. Perhaps they call it Prithvi Target missile just for kicks.

In short, all these claims of his of DRDO being a marketing agency etc are his own bias & fervent imagination. The BMD system is not a DRDO initiative but a GOI one, sparked off by the lack of a BMD cover during Op Parakram. But never mind, Sawheny will find some yarn to spin.

PS: One year before Akash trials & subsequent mass orders, he was calling it a failed system which would not see service.
PPS: A year or so before Pinaka went into production, he was calling it a failure as well.

 

[Archer]

Dear Saya. please read the article carefully. The army officer is not saying that PAD did not have divert thrusters. he is referring to two changes and divert thrusters are not one of them. He is saying that PDV will have divert thrusters just like PAD. So please do not ridicule the whole article on this misconception.

Sawheny is claiming to interpret what VKS said. I wouldnt touch Sawhney's interpretation with a barge pole. His record is that bad.

What VKS & co have said in the past is this. A Phase 1 BMD can be deployed in place quickly leveraging the now proven PAD/AAD systems which in the case of PAD build upon the mass produced Prithvi family. The tech and production infra are well established for quick induction. As a product improvement venture, the PDV is being undertaken to replace the PAD which works with an even better system. The option as to which path to pursue - quick induction for rapid protection or standardize on one missile in the class for easier logistics, but then wait for it to go through trials, is that of the GOI. They asked for the development of the BMD asap, and it has been done.

 

[SajeevJino]

Also at the New Dehli conference, Defense News reported on Thursday that IAI and Israel's Rafael will partner with two Indian defense technology firms to jointly build an integrated anti-missile system to be deployed against Chinese nuclear and conventional missiles.

The Israeli companies will work with the Defense Research and Development Organisation and India's state-owned Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) on the project.

Israel Aerospace Industries Unveils Advanced Battle Management System | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com

The proposed missile defense program will see participation by Rafael and Israel Aircraft Industries in partnership with DRDO and state-owned Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL).

The system will integrate the homegrown Prithvi air defense system, which is ready for induction next year, with the mobile detection radar being built by BEL in partnership with IAI. In addition, DRDO and BEL will work with IAI and Rafael for this program.

"The proposed missile defense program will be a network of air defense systems and radars from India and Israel," a Rafael executive said at Defexpo, which runs from Thursday to Sunday.

India, Israel to Build Anti-Missile System | Defense News | defensenews.com
@p2prada @Twinblade @sayareakd Sir

Two different Reports ..Seems like both of them messed up about Green Pine or Truly some other Projects for endo Atmosphere Killer

 

[Archer]

I was implying economical in the sense we can afford them in the 1st case-

An interceptor missile costing several times higher than the intruding missile would be death blow to military's defense budget- and specially for a country like India-

A nuclear missile exploding over Indian territory would be equally suicidal. Economics only goes so far. Like it or not, an interceptor missile wont come cheap.

Also I must imply here that- current propellant used by DRDO might take missiles to greater heights like in case of a A4 or A3- but it would severely reduce its maneuverability and acceleration(dimension of the vehicle)- in current context AAD is fine as an interceptor missile but PAD is not enough- we must have all solid fuel missile as is the case with PDV- which is not tested yet- hence the 1st stage cannot be declared complete- induction is a far off thing- Please keep in mind that we are just talking about the kill vehicle here- the electronic part also cannot be said as complete for induction yet-

Disagree. The PAD system is not meant for high mobility, which is the usual bugbear of liquid fuelled missiles. If quick induction is required given our strategic scenario & requirements, it actually makes more sense to rapidly field as many PDV equipped units as possible. The electronic part can be addressed as well provided we are ready to field the current system as is, and not a future "perfect one" with PDVs.

I like Mr- Chander he is perhaps the best man we can have chief of DRDO as of now- he speaks facts and is much better than jingoistic- Saraswat- only If we see what he is trying to say we would realize where we are talking his declarations in a wrong sense-

Saraswat's record speaks for itself. He earned a right to be forceful & vehement in his declarations by virtue of his leading work on the Prithvi program, which was a first in terms of involving the users from day 1 & also creating a workable weapons system in a time when DRDO-service interactions were limited. Furthermore, Saraswat also lead the charge for DRDO & associated agencies to invest in & develop the technology that it now employs for its systems.

To imply that Chander speaks facts (and Saraswat didn't), that Chander is superior (and Saraswat was "jingoistic") is to be patronizing in a pointless manner.

Respect both men for what they have done, and lets not try to imply that one is better than the other. The likes of Chander would be the first to contest the kind of statements that imply that his ex-boss was "jingoistic" when most folks would rather note that he was blunt, forceful and emphatically convinced that Indians & Indian agencies could compete with the best in the world & deliver to harsh requirements. That is the sort of can do attitude that was inculcated in Saraswat & his peers during Kalam's era & which is why the entire "missile gang" has risen to where they are. Understand where that belief system comes from as versus dismissing it.

 

[Archer]

Israel Aerospace Industries Unveils Advanced Battle Management System | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com



India, Israel to Build Anti-Missile System | Defense News | defensenews.com
@p2prada @Twinblade @sayareakd Sir

Two different Reports ..Seems like both of them messed up about Green Pine or Truly some other Projects for endo Atmosphere Killer

A lot of needless confusion.

In 2010, DRDO revealed its aims for a future integrated missile system to protect Indian territory. It would include a SAM network, a BMD system and future accretions. The SAMs we know are SRSAM, MR/LRSAM and a new one in development for long range requirements. The BMD network is of two levels 2k km (Phase 1 - PAD/AAD and then PDV/AAD) and >2km (Phase 2- AD1/AD2).

What IAF and IA were also interested in were Counter Mortar/Counter MRLS/Counter tac BM systems. Israel offered C-RAM eqvts and Iron-Dome. Whilst not ideal, they are the most cost effective around to address tactical requirements from conventional systems. For instance, a salvo from a MRLS battery can decimate an IA HQ formation. Using QRSAMs to stop this will break the bank. These are not nukes to justify the investment yet the need is vital.

So Israel is now offering to codevelop the remaining stuff it has in its kitty - basically customize it for India. Items like Davids Sling, Iron Dome etc & also help India to develop a unified C4I system to integrate all these systems in place. Easier said than done.

For our own individual systems btw - BMD, SRSAM - we will lead the C3I and already have a system in place for the former. For MR/LRSAM, a C3I system is coming with it.

All this would typically need to be integrated with the IAFs IACCS & IAs AD systems as well. Former is ready, latter no. Israel sees an opportunity and is offering the kitchen sink.

If I were India, I'd accept the offer provided the MR/LRSAM program gets resolved first. Israel took Indian money & focused on its own BMD programs as a priority. Lets not just buy for the sake of buying though! And if it has to be a JV, let it be a proper one.

 

[Archer]

Typo: Disagree. The PAD system is not meant for high mobility, which is the usual bugbear of liquid fuelled missiles. If quick induction is required given our strategic scenario & requirements, it actually makes more sense to rapidly field as many PDV equipped units as possible. The electronic part can be addressed as well provided we are ready to field the current system as is, and not a future "perfect one" with PDVs.

I meant rapidly field as many PAD equipped units as possible, given the Prithvi infra.

 

[sayareakd]

IMHO, PAD is interim measure, as you cant have single missile per launcher to take on salvo of enemy missiles. It (launcher) may be good for one enemy missile, but cant be long run solution, therefore they made PDV.
As DRDO now has done some 100 Prithvi tests, therefore Prithvi for missile defence was logical choice, now that it work perfectly they have continued with it.
Hope PDV tests come soon (this month or next) it is endless wait.