Indian Ballistic Missile Defense System

[sayareakd]

There is a diff between A3 a ballistic missile and an air defense system. I understand what you say. Say a radar picks up a launch from Pak right now. It will be over delhi in 5 mins. When will you fuel the interceptor?

that is why PDV, but that fueling problem is solved. You just put it in missile and wait.

 

[Yusuf]

that is why PDV, but that fueling problem is solved. You just put it in missile and wait.

Saar you can't fill liquid fuel in the missile and keep it on stand by forever, can you? That's why solid fuel was made in the first place.

 

[sayareakd]

Saar you can't fill liquid fuel in the missile and keep it on stand by forever, can you? That's why solid fuel was made in the first place.

from Wiki

, PAD is a two stage missile with a maximum interception altitude of 80 km (50 mi). The first stage is a Solid fuelled motor while the second stage is Liquid fuelled

Indian Ballistic Missile Defence Programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i told you at the upper stage it has got liquid fuel..........

even US has kill vehicle with these liquid thrust motors

here is the video

 

[Guest]

from Wiki

Sir-
The upper most stage of FTG-06A had a solid fuel rocket- Kill vehicles require different kind of rocket fuel and very minimum amount of it as compared to rest of the rocket- since it is just doing course correction task- and not propelling it in the space-

Also I would like to point out that the second stage of Prithvi III does most of its flying-- hence it would not be wrong to say that the 2nd in PAD also does sufficient amount of flying-- If not most-- while the liquid fuel motor in A5 or other long range BMs do course correction maneuvers which require different kind of fuel which is present in very low quantities and hence can be stored for longer against missiles like Prithvi or No-Dong or other liquid fuel missiles-

 

[sayareakd]

Sir-
The upper most stage of FTG-06A had a solid fuel rocket- Kill vehicles require different kind of rocket fuel and very minimum amount of it as compared to rest of the rocket- since it is just doing course correction task- and not propelling it in the space-

Also I would like to point out that the second stage of Prithvi III does most of its flying-- hence it would not be wrong to say that the 2nd in PAD also does sufficient amount of flying-- If not most-- while the liquid fuel motor in A5 or other long range BMs do course correction maneuvers which require different kind of fuel which is present in very low quantities and hence can be stored for longer against missiles like Prithvi or No-Dong or other liquid fuel missiles-

oh forget this pic it will clear all things

i posted it before.

@Yusuf first stage as per this is Liquid, second stage is Solid and Diverters are liquid.

 

[Guest]

oh forget this pic it will clear all things

i posted it before.

@Yusuf first stage as per this is Liquid, second stage is Solid and Diverters are liquid.

Sir-

I have seen this image before the liquid fuel booster is being used here because we did not reach the quality of solid fuel required for the booster fitting its intended design/dimensions- hence the initial plan was to test the other technologies and eventually replace the liquid booster- however the delay indicates that the liquid booster has been cancelled for the solid one-

I don't remember the exact date of this-- I would be kind of you to mention it-

 

[arnabmit]

[video=youtube_share;KBMU6l6GsdM]http://youtu.be/KBMU6l6GsdM[/video]

from Wiki



Indian Ballistic Missile Defence Programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i told you at the upper stage it has got liquid fuel..........

even US has kill vehicle with these liquid thrust motors

 

[Archer]

It still has the same propulsion system- plus a TVC nozzle-

Is it that you are dense or you choose to be obtuse? You post a image of a stock Army Prithvi and then claim that your argument holds merit for the Prithvi target? And copy paste googled up pictures of the well known Prithvi system?

And you are of course privy to the internal schema of the Target Prithvi and can accurately say that it did not achieve the reentry speeds & trajectory of representative Pak/PRC missiles it was meant to emulate. The Israelis had to develop air launched target missiles for their specific needs. India had the benefit of a huge inventory of Prithvis & chose to utilize those as the modified platform to emulate the target missiles. No wait, of course, it didn't. The poor sods at DRDO did not have your intellectual levels to help them achieve this. They went to the trouble of creating a specialist Prithvi with a second intercept stage, a second backup AAD, making their own long range AESA radars, even creating a secure C3I network, and deployed all this in real time in tests, but of course, they didn't bother modifying the target missile. Of course, the same agency, when testing the Akash, also procured Mirach drones and not just the Lakshya for accurate testing. And in this case, they forgot all about these aspects. Seriously, I'd wonder what you were smoking if you actually believed what you wrote.

For now rest of the world has not reached your intellectual levels hence they still use-- say Air to Air missiles having solid fuel- As vibrations are extremely high on an aircraft's wing pylon-

Actually your intellectual levels really know no bounds - with the above comparison. The rest of the world's intellectual levels are beside the point, but your levels are certainly amazing.

Are you even aware of the limited number of hours an air to air missile is certified for? Guess what, a few flight capable hours at best. Yeah, thats because of the conditions in which they are carried. So much for your compare.

R-77-5.jpg (image)

They are safeguarded carefully, tested with BIT & the manufacturer refuses to certify them if they cross that in active carry conditions. Which is the reason, dummy missiles were developed with representative seeker heads alone & are used for training purposes. And these rounds are stored in AFB with carefully controlled climate conditions, and wheeled out at time of conflict.

In contrast, when Prithvi was developed, it was expected to be widely deployed & by the Indian Army, which wanted a robust, soldier proof, cost effective missile. A Prithvi missile system may have to be under constant movement to avoid counterfire. Ah yes, a Prithvi group then finds out that its missiles are no longer usable, because sahab, we wheeled them out for a few hours during weapons trials and the result was this.

The DRDO did an evaluation of the IA requirements & liquid propulsion did the trick. Unlike solid fuelled missiles which could deteriorate using then technology & would be heck to certify & even determine whether they would work or not requiring NDT methods. Today, its a different story.

Besides which comparing air to air missiles with ground based BMs is an example in pointless comparisons to begin with.

Here are the exact details about the decision for the Prithvi as noted by its design team, which appeared in a technical notation in an IoE article.

"During the design of the Prithvi, there were intense discussions whether to adopt solid or liquid propellants. The following points emerged, thrust termination at different points. This was not possible with SP motors but achievable with LP ones.
Also, cross country movement on rough terrain and field storage without air conditioning, would cause cracks in solid propellant and case bonding, LP did not have this problem.
Weapons system preparation, readiness and operational use are not affected if storable LP are used, as the missile can prepared in rear areas well in advance, and left filled for five years".

So, the shaped trajectory system of the Prithvi, making it effectively uninterceptable by conventional TBM systems relying on ballistic prediction was enabled by the LP engine. Its transportability was another key factor, and it can be stored for upto 5 years (which makes all your imagery about ground support vehicles moot, as they are to fuel the missile in the rear areas before any likely conflict). The Army of course, wants an even cheaper, even simpler system, but it too will come with pros and cons of its own.

Yeah, only issue was that they didn't have your high intellectual levels to tell them what to do.

 

[Archer]

And this:
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2012/NL_December_2012_web.pdf

The target missile, a modified version of Prithvi, mimicking
the enemy's ballistic missile, was launched from
Launch Complex III, Chandipur.
--

Ah, but what would they know.

 

[Guest]

Is it that you are dense or you choose to be obtuse? You post a image of a stock Army Prithvi and then claim that your argument holds merit for the Prithvi target? And copy paste googled up pictures of the well known Prithvi system?

And you are of course privy to the internal schema of the Target Prithvi and can accurately say that it did not achieve the reentry speeds & trajectory of representative Pak/PRC missiles it was meant to emulate. The Israelis had to develop air launched target missiles for their specific needs. India had the benefit of a huge inventory of Prithvis & chose to utilize those as the modified platform to emulate the target missiles. No wait, of course, it didn't. The poor sods at DRDO did not have your intellectual levels to help them achieve this. They went to the trouble of creating a specialist Prithvi with a second intercept stage, a second backup AAD, making their own long range AESA radars, even creating a secure C3I network, and deployed all this in real time in tests, but of course, they didn't bother modifying the target missile. Of course, the same agency, when testing the Akash, also procured Mirach drones and not just the Lakshya for accurate testing. And in this case, they forgot all about these aspects. Seriously, I'd wonder what you were smoking if you actually believed what you wrote.

So what is the Prithvi target missile according to you ? AFIK It is a Dhanush(Prithvi III) Whose 2nd stage is Liquid fueled- flown in modified trajectory- Nothing more nothing less-- If you have credible proof backing your claim to it being something else let it be known-

The poor sods at DRDO don't have test facilities to use missiles which mimic the target missiles from Pakistan more realistically in medium and long range category-- hence they had to make do with Dhanush which can be launched by a Ship- Last time I read about it they were still developing facilities at A&N Islands for that- also the radar is not of DRDO or LRDE-- It is an Israeli radar customized to Indian requirements- DRDO radar which was supposed to be Longer range has not been tested yet-

The scale of requirements for an Akash target and BMD are very different-- I hope you realize that-

Actually your intellectual levels really know no bounds - with the above comparison. The rest of the world's intellectual levels are beside the point, but your levels are certainly amazing.

Are you even aware of the limited number of hours an air to air missile is certified for? Guess what, a few flight capable hours at best. Yeah, thats because of the conditions in which they are carried. So much for your compare.

R-77-5.jpg (image)

They are safeguarded carefully, tested with BIT & the manufacturer refuses to certify them if they cross that in active carry conditions. Which is the reason, dummy missiles were developed with representative seeker heads alone & are used for training purposes. And these rounds are stored in AFB with carefully controlled climate conditions, and wheeled out at time of conflict.

I am asking you a simple question since you posted about solid fuel being highly vulnerable to vibrations and Liquid fuel being able to cope with that-- Why don't Air to Air missiles use liquid fuel ?-

In contrast, when Prithvi was developed, it was expected to be widely deployed & by the Indian Army, which wanted a robust, soldier proof, cost effective missile. A Prithvi missile system may have to be under constant movement to avoid counterfire. Ah yes, a Prithvi group then finds out that its missiles are no longer usable, because sahab, we wheeled them out for a few hours during weapons trials and the result was this.

The DRDO did an evaluation of the IA requirements & liquid propulsion did the trick. Unlike solid fuelled missiles which could deteriorate using then technology & would be heck to certify & even determine whether they would work or not requiring NDT methods. Today, its a different story.

Besides which comparing air to air missiles with ground based BMs is an example in pointless comparisons to begin with.

Here are the exact details about the decision for the Prithvi as noted by its design team, which appeared in a technical notation in an IoE article.

"During the design of the Prithvi, there were intense discussions whether to adopt solid or liquid propellants. The following points emerged, thrust termination at different points. This was not possible with SP motors but achievable with LP ones.
Also, cross country movement on rough terrain and field storage without air conditioning, would cause cracks in solid propellant and case bonding, LP did not have this problem.
Weapons system preparation, readiness and operational use are not affected if storable LP are used, as the missile can prepared in rear areas well in advance, and left filled for five years".

So, the shaped trajectory system of the Prithvi, making it effectively uninterceptable by conventional TBM systems relying on ballistic prediction was enabled by the LP engine. Its transportability was another key factor, and it can be stored for upto 5 years (which makes all your imagery about ground support vehicles moot, as they are to fuel the missile in the rear areas before any likely conflict). The Army of course, wants an even cheaper, even simpler system, but it too will come with pros and cons of its own.

Yeah, only issue was that they didn't have your high intellectual levels to tell them what to do.

However It does seem that Conventional TBM system like AAD intercepts it every time in the tests-

Why are you quoting decades old argument here-- Today all new Ballistic- quasi-Ballistic missiles aswell as other--other missiles being developed by DRDO and inducted in Military use Solid propellants-- Including SLBMs-- Tactical missiles like Prahar as well as Rocket artillery-- there must have been some advantages with that-- which they see- hence It shows they do have higher intellectual levels like mine or perhaps even better-

Note:By referring to Liquid propellant or Liquid fuel here it means Oxidized liquid fuel or containing Liquid oxygen-

 

[Guest]

And this:
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2012/NL_December_2012_web.pdf

The target missile, a modified version of Prithvi, mimicking
the enemy's ballistic missile, was launched from
Launch Complex III, Chandipur.
--

Ah, but what would they know.

If you see the news letter specifically mentioned an electronic target being intercepted by an electronic missile at an altitude of 120 km where the target was mimicking a 1500 km range incoming Ballistic missile-

Interestingly No-Dong has an Apogee at similar altitude-

 

[LalTopi]

Is it that you are dense or you choose to be obtuse? You post a image of a stock Army Prithvi and then claim that your argument holds merit for the Prithvi target? And copy paste googled up pictures of the well known Prithvi system?

And you are of course privy to the internal schema of the Target Prithvi and can accurately say that it did not achieve the reentry speeds & trajectory of representative Pak/PRC missiles it was meant to emulate. The Israelis had to develop air launched target missiles for their specific needs. India had the benefit of a huge inventory of Prithvis & chose to utilize those as the modified platform to emulate the target missiles. No wait, of course, it didn't. The poor sods at DRDO did not have your intellectual levels to help them achieve this. They went to the trouble of creating a specialist Prithvi with a second intercept stage, a second backup AAD, making their own long range AESA radars, even creating a secure C3I network, and deployed all this in real time in tests, but of course, they didn't bother modifying the target missile. Of course, the same agency, when testing the Akash, also procured Mirach drones and not just the Lakshya for accurate testing. And in this case, they forgot all about these aspects. Seriously, I'd wonder what you were smoking if you actually believed what you wrote.



Actually your intellectual levels really know no bounds - with the above comparison. The rest of the world's intellectual levels are beside the point, but your levels are certainly amazing.

Are you even aware of the limited number of hours an air to air missile is certified for? Guess what, a few flight capable hours at best. Yeah, thats because of the conditions in which they are carried. So much for your compare.

R-77-5.jpg (image)

They are safeguarded carefully, tested with BIT & the manufacturer refuses to certify them if they cross that in active carry conditions. Which is the reason, dummy missiles were developed with representative seeker heads alone & are used for training purposes. And these rounds are stored in AFB with carefully controlled climate conditions, and wheeled out at time of conflict.

In contrast, when Prithvi was developed, it was expected to be widely deployed & by the Indian Army, which wanted a robust, soldier proof, cost effective missile. A Prithvi missile system may have to be under constant movement to avoid counterfire. Ah yes, a Prithvi group then finds out that its missiles are no longer usable, because sahab, we wheeled them out for a few hours during weapons trials and the result was this.

The DRDO did an evaluation of the IA requirements & liquid propulsion did the trick. Unlike solid fuelled missiles which could deteriorate using then technology & would be heck to certify & even determine whether they would work or not requiring NDT methods. Today, its a different story.

Besides which comparing air to air missiles with ground based BMs is an example in pointless comparisons to begin with.

Here are the exact details about the decision for the Prithvi as noted by its design team, which appeared in a technical notation in an IoE article.

"During the design of the Prithvi, there were intense discussions whether to adopt solid or liquid propellants. The following points emerged, thrust termination at different points. This was not possible with SP motors but achievable with LP ones.
Also, cross country movement on rough terrain and field storage without air conditioning, would cause cracks in solid propellant and case bonding, LP did not have this problem.
Weapons system preparation, readiness and operational use are not affected if storable LP are used, as the missile can prepared in rear areas well in advance, and left filled for five years".

So, the shaped trajectory system of the Prithvi, making it effectively uninterceptable by conventional TBM systems relying on ballistic prediction was enabled by the LP engine. Its transportability was another key factor, and it can be stored for upto 5 years (which makes all your imagery about ground support vehicles moot, as they are to fuel the missile in the rear areas before any likely conflict). The Army of course, wants an even cheaper, even simpler system, but it too will come with pros and cons of its own.

Yeah, only issue was that they didn't have your high intellectual levels to tell them what to do.

So if liquid fuel is ok, and indeed advantageous, what are the reasons that PAD is not bring deployed and instead we are waiting for PDV. what will PDV give us?

 

[sayareakd]

So if liquid fuel is ok, and indeed advantageous, what are the reasons that PAD is not bring deployed and instead we are waiting for PDV. what will PDV give us?

if you cared to read posts here or at least paid attention to PAD or prithvi you will find only one missile per launcher because of the big fins on them.
AAD has 6 missiles per launcher. Hope to see PDV with 4-6 missiles per launcher. PAD is more of tech demo, as that time we had tested prithvi for more then 60 times. Now Prithvi is tested for around 100 times. So you should understand how much data we had on prithvi and it was logical choice for it.

 

[LalTopi]

if you cared to read posts here or at least paid attention to PAD or prithvi you will find only one missile per launcher because of the big fins on them.
AAD has 6 missiles per launcher. Hope to see PDV with 4-6 missiles per launcher. PAD is more of tech demo, as that time we had tested prithvi for more then 60 times. Now Prithvi is tested for around 100 times. So you should understand how much data we had on prithvi and it was logical choice for it.

yes I had read your comment on the PAD fins, but I do not see that as being a shows topper. I thought the showstopper was the refuelling problem, but that no longer seems the case. hence my question.

 

[sayareakd]

yes I had read your comment on the PAD fins, but I do not see that as being a shows topper. I thought the showstopper was the refuelling problem, but that no longer seems the case. hence my question.

well it is not practical to have as many missiles with as may launchers. Now for defending Delhi they might need at lest 12 to 24 missiles, so you need that many TEL. Now just imagine PDV with only 6 TEL for the same work and it has cold start motor to eject the missile out of launcher. so in total PDV will be true BMD missile to suit our needs.

 

[SajeevJino]

Israel, India agree on missile defense system against China, Pakistan nuclear strikes​

India and Israel have concluded an agreement to assemble a ballistic missile defense system.

Indian sources said Jerusalem and New Dehli concluded more than two years of negotiations with an agreement in principle to build a BMD system for India.

The sources said the system would be designed to protect against nuclear warheads fired from China or Pakistan.

"This system would integrate Indian and Israeli assets into a layered defense network," a source said.

The sources said the Indian Defense Ministry agreed to the project. But the two sides were preparing for contract negotiations that could extend into late 2014.

Israel has long offered a partnership in BMD development, particularly the Arrow system by Israel Aerospace Industries. The sources said New Dehli began to express strong interest only in 2013 when Israel proposed a program that would integrate and enhance Indian air defense assets.

"The Indians were looking for Israeli expertise and technology that would allow New Dehli to eventually work on its own in BMD," the source said. "They were not interested in an off-the-shelf Arrow purchase."

The intiial agreement would partner IAI as well as Israel's state-owned Rafael Advanced Defense Systems with India's Defense Research and Development Organization, Bharat Dynamics and Bharat Electronics. All of the participants are state-owned entities, and Bharat Electronics has developed the Prithvi air defense system, scheduled for deployment in 2015.

"The attractiveness of the proposal is that India could contribute any asset deemed suitable for missile defense, including radars, interceptors and launchers," the source said. "Because the network is meant to protect against a range of threats, no existing or future Indian system could be ruled out."

Israel, India agree on missile defense system against China, Pakistan nuclear strikes | World Tribune

 

[LalTopi]

Israel, India agree on missile defense system against China, Pakistan nuclear strikes​

India and Israel have concluded an agreement to assemble a ballistic missile defense system.

Indian sources said Jerusalem and New Dehli concluded more than two years of negotiations with an agreement in principle to build a BMD system for India.

The sources said the system would be designed to protect against nuclear warheads fired from China or Pakistan.

"This system would integrate Indian and Israeli assets into a layered defense network," a source said.

The sources said the Indian Defense Ministry agreed to the project. But the two sides were preparing for contract negotiations that could extend into late 2014.

Israel has long offered a partnership in BMD development, particularly the Arrow system by Israel Aerospace Industries. The sources said New Dehli began to express strong interest only in 2013 when Israel proposed a program that would integrate and enhance Indian air defense assets.

"The Indians were looking for Israeli expertise and technology that would allow New Dehli to eventually work on its own in BMD," the source said. "They were not interested in an off-the-shelf Arrow purchase."

The intiial agreement would partner IAI as well as Israel's state-owned Rafael Advanced Defense Systems with India's Defense Research and Development Organization, Bharat Dynamics and Bharat Electronics. All of the participants are state-owned entities, and Bharat Electronics has developed the Prithvi air defense system, scheduled for deployment in 2015.

"The attractiveness of the proposal is that India could contribute any asset deemed suitable for missile defense, including radars, interceptors and launchers," the source said. "Because the network is meant to protect against a range of threats, no existing or future Indian system could be ruled out."

Israel, India agree on missile defense system against China, Pakistan nuclear strikes | World Tribune

Is this after PDV and for phase 2.?

 

[cobra commando]

'Killer' Interceptor Missile
Test Soon


'Killer' Interceptor Missile Test Soon - The New Indian Express

 

[SajeevJino]

Country will test missile shield next week: DRDO​

In a boost to the defence sector, the country is all set to test its anti-ballistic missile defence system for long range (beyond 100 km) off Odisha coast for the first time next week. This will be followed by trial of cruise missile Nirbhay (whose maiden test had failed last year) and air-to-air missile Astra next month, Avinash Chander, scientific adviser to defence minister, said here on Saturday.

During an informal chat with mediapersons, Chander, who is also director general (DG), Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), said the indigenously-built unnamed missile interceptor will be tested from Wheeler Island. DRDO successfully tested interceptors at least six times earlier, but the range was between 20 and 30 km.

"It is a system to intercept enemy missiles with a range of 2,000 km. The missiles will get intercepted at range of more than 100 km away so that damage to our cities can be prevented," the DG said. Chander was here to address convocation of Siksha 'O' Anusandhan University.

Official sources said the DRDO will fire a missile, mimicking an enemy weapon, from a naval warship, while the interceptor missile will be launched from launching complex-IV. The interceptor will destroy the warhead of the 'enemy' missile midair. The entire process will be fully automated.

Chander said DRDO is also preparing to test Nirbhay, a sub-sonic cruise missile which flunked maiden test in March last year, early next month off Odisa coast. Nirbhay (which means fearless) is India's equivalent to America's Tomahawk and Pakistan's Babur. DRDO will also test-fire Astra, the beyond visual range air-to-air single stage and solid-fuelled missile, from an aircraft. The 3.8-metre Astra is the smallest DRDO-developed missile.

"Both are having unique capabilities. Astra will be tested for the first time from an Su-30 aircraft. These two tests will be carried out between Chandipur and Wheeler Island in next 15 to 20 days", Chander said. Sources said if Astra is successfully fired, India will break into elite group of nations, including the US, France, Russia and Israel, possessing such missiles. The missiles are capable of engaging ultra-modern supersonic fighter jets. Astra can carry a 15-kg high-explosive warhead.

Country will test missile shield next week: DRDO - The Times of India

 

[laughingbuddha]

So many things to do...PDV, LRSAM, AESA, MiRV