Indian Army T- 90 (Bhishma) and T- 72 (M-1) Tanks

Bleh

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What are the protection level of Arjun MK1A? as for rifled gun advantage there are limits to...
yes but rheinmetall guns used by abrams, challenger, leopards have 3 times the life of arjun. meaning 6 times the life of indian T-90 guns.
Theoretically correct, yes.. But as of now it's at part with everything that it'll face. In future definitely a smoothbore 120/125mm with bustle autoloader is our goto with NG-MBT.

But frankly even with 750mm pen they won't go through the armour modules of each other... so I suspect here local militaries found it kinda pointless, unlike NATO whose tanks fight old T-XXs. The following is the <500mm, ie, penetrable LOS thickness (unknown effective armour thickness but usually lesser) at frontal silhouette. Rest are between 800 to 950mm.
image (2).png



PS: Everything you're ranting about have been discussed before. Please make the effort to go through older posts of these threads yourself instead expecting to be spoonfed.
 
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airstrike99

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What are the protection level of Arjun MK1A? as for rifled gun advantage there are limits to how much chamber pressure can be increase without fcking life of barrel due to rifling.reduce muzzle velocity will be another problem. spin drift of rounds & spin induced ricochet off armour due to rifling induced round spin is another problem.
spin induced ricochet off armour due to rifling induced round spin is another problem.
APFSDS rounds don't spin, even when fired from rifled barrel. that's the point. "fin stabilised". you are stabilising with fins, not by spinning.
you are talking about ww2 and pre cold war shells that have spin induced ricochet.

What are the protection level of Arjun MK1A? as for rifled gun advantage there are limits to how much chamber pressure can be increase without fcking life of barrel due to rifling
you can't increase the chamber pressure for any gun without performing design changes. there is something called as rated pressure/charge per mass for a specific barrel. for both rifled and smoothbore guns.

increasing chamber pressure without increasing the length of the smoothbore barrel will also cause pressure bleed.
 

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What are the protection level of Arjun MK1A? as for rifled gun advantage there are limits to how much chamber pressure can be increase without fcking life of barrel due to rifling.reduce muzzle velocity will be another problem. spin drift of rounds & spin induced ricochet off armour due to rifling induced round spin is another problem.
 

airstrike99

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different types of steels were used in making most of the armour including armour behind sight.

i calculated the length of behind the sight to be ~ 450 to 480 mm.

DMR 1700 steel is used against RHA steel.
DMR 1700 steel has 20 % better performance than standard RHA.

so lets interpolate it directly( even though calc don't work that simple) it atleast gives better understanding.

<450,480> + 0.2(<450,480>) = <540, 576> i.e 540 to 576 mm RHA equivalent.
just barely enough to stop apfsds in use by china and pakistan.

Screen Shot 2021-06-15 at 12.37.56 PM.png


Screen Shot 2021-06-15 at 12.38.07 PM.png
 

t 90s

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APFSDS rounds don't spin, even when fired from rifled barrel. that's the point. "fin stabilised". you are stabilising with fins, not by spinning.
you are talking about ww2 and pre cold war shells that have spin induced ricochet.



you can't increase the chamber pressure for any gun without performing design changes. there is something called as rated pressure/charge per mass for a specific barrel. for both rifled and smoothbore guns.

increasing chamber pressure without increasing the length of the smoothbore barrel will also cause pressure bleed.
I wasn't talking about APFSDS. HESH & specially designed HEAT round for rifled gun both spin. I am not talking about design change to increase chamber pressure of existing gun. There is a limit to how much you can push rifled gun without fcking it up because of rifling. Direct result will reduce muzzle velocity for APFSDS, can't fire heavier longer sabot. smoothbore will always have advantage over rifled period.
 

t 90s

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Theoretically correct, yes.. But as of now it's at part with everything that it'll face. In future definitely a smoothbore 120/125mm with bustle autoloader is our goto with NG-MBT.

But frankly even with 750mm pen they won't go through the armour modules of each other... so I suspect here local militaries found it kinda pointless, unlike NATO whose tanks fight old T-XXs. The following is the <500mm, ie, penetrable LOS thickness (unknown effective armour thickness but usually lesser) at frontal silhouette. Rest are between 800 to 950mm.View attachment 94733


PS: Everything you're ranting about have been discussed before. Please make the effort to go through older posts of these threads yourself instead expecting to be spoonfed.
Is 800- 950mm without ERA in case of Arjun Mk1A ?
 

airstrike99

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I wasn't talking about APFSDS. HESH & specially designed HEAT round for rifled gun both spin. I am not talking about design change to increase chamber pressure of existing gun. There is a limit to how much you can push rifled gun without fcking it up because of rifling. Direct result will reduce muzzle velocity for APFSDS, can't fire heavier longer sabot. smoothbore will always have advantage over rifled period.
HESH & specially designed HEAT round for rifled gun both spin
HESH doesn't ricochet. it is a plastic, deforming critical pressure explosive.
HEAT uses fins. so no spin induced ricochet.
HE is used against bunkers not tanks. so no question of ricochet.
PCB used against bunkers and light vehicles. so no question of ricochet.
TB Thermobaric used in open areas against infantry. so no question of ricochet.

There is a limit to how much you can push rifled gun without fcking it up because of rifling
you can modify the rifling angle by adding additional material and re-machining. it comes down to cost. does not take much time. only cost problem.

can't fire heavier longer sabot
that's outright lie.
1) you must mean penetrator not the discarding steel sabots.
2) sabot contact area with the interior of barrel matters and it won't change.
3) longer penetrator is not a problem. you just increase the aspect ratio L/D. for the same mass of material but only upto an extant for any gun.
4) heavier penetrator is a problem but it is a problem for all guns. you can't expect to fire more mass particle at the same velocity, without increasing the propelling energy, in which case you are increasing the charge or propellant in the gun. which means you are increasing chamber pressure.

if you increase mass but still add same propellant powder, the penetrator will go slower. don't forget the simple concept of momentum and K.E

smoothbore will always have advantage over rifled period.
in cost and maintenance, yes.

smooth bore can fire only 2 types APFSDS, HEAT.

for infantry support role, it sucks soooo bad. you keep firing HEAT or the high caliber machine guns against concrete bunkers, infantry, everything etc.
you need to call artillery or air support every now and then when you go against pure suicidal RPG-32 wielding infantry.

meanwhile arjun gun fires HESH, HEAT, PCB, TB, HE depending on the scenario for infantry support role.
 

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HESH doesn't ricochet. it is a plastic, deforming critical pressure explosive.
HEAT uses fins. so no spin induced ricochet.
HE is used against bunkers not tanks. so no question of ricochet.
PCB used against bunkers and light vehicles. so no question of ricochet.
TB Thermobaric used in open areas against infantry. so no question of ricochet.


you can modify the rifling angle by adding additional material and re-machining. it comes down to cost. does not take much time. only cost problem.


that's outright lie.
1) you must mean penetrator not the discarding steel sabots.
2) sabot contact area with the interior of barrel matters and it won't change.
3) longer penetrator is not a problem. you just increase the aspect ratio L/D. for the same mass of material but only upto an extant for any gun.
4) heavier penetrator is a problem but it is a problem for all guns. you can't expect to fire more mass particle at the same velocity, without increasing the propelling energy, in which case you are increasing the charge or propellant in the gun. which means you are increasing chamber pressure.

if you increase mass but still add same propellant powder, the penetrator will go slower. don't forget the simple concept of momentum and K.E



in cost and maintenance, yes.

smooth bore can fire only 2 types APFSDS, HEAT.

for infantry support role, it sucks soooo bad. you keep firing HEAT or the high caliber machine guns against concrete bunkers, infantry, everything etc.
you need to call artillery or air support every now and then when you go against pure suicidal RPG-32 wielding infantry.

meanwhile arjun gun fires HESH, HEAT, PCB, TB, HE depending on the scenario for infantry support role.
barring HESH the other rounds can be fired from a smoothbore right?
 

t 90s

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So 1 meter on left side & 450-480mm on right side behind sight without ERA. the armour use DMR 1700 steel, So 20% increase in standard protection.. that's roughly 1200mm ( left side )+ 540-576mm( right side ) . Now we know ERA mk2 is kontak 5 copy.

RHA rating for K-5 (as stated by NII Stali )
vs APFSDS: 250-300mm
vs HEAT: 600 mm

So around 1450-1500mm against APFSDS & 1800mm against HEAT ?
 
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airstrike99

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So 1 meter on left side & 450-480mm on right side behind sight without ERA. the armour use DMR 1700 steel, So 20% increase in standard protection.. that's roughly 1200mm ( left side )+ 540-576mm( right side ) . Now we know ERA mk2 is kontak 5 copy.

RHA rating for K-5 (as stated by NII Stali )
vs APFSDS: 250-300mm
vs HEAT: 600 mm

So around 1450-1500mm against APFSDS & 1800mm against HEAT ?
pretty much yes. except

1200mm ( left side )+ 540-576mm( right side )
1200mm (left side) + 1200mm(right side excluding the sight part) + 540-576mm ( the sight part)
 

airstrike99

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I want this.. Can it run on crap PC. Not exactly gaming system, mine.
it seems it can run on low end PC. but the full version game seems to available only on their patreon. they first released free trail version to check it out, on steam i guess.
the game is gunner Heat.
 

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How much modification would be required to shift the GMS above the turret of Arjun MK1A? Will it require complete turret redesign?
 
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[email protected]

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So 1 meter on left side & 450-480mm on right side behind sight without ERA. the armour use DMR 1700 steel, So 20% increase in standard protection.. that's roughly 1200mm ( left side )+ 540-576mm( right side ) . Now we know ERA mk2 is kontak 5 copy.

RHA rating for K-5 (as stated by NII Stali )
vs APFSDS: 250-300mm
vs HEAT: 600 mm

So around 1450-1500mm against APFSDS & 1800mm against HEAT ?
Arjun Armour uses DMR 1700 steel + HNS steel + ceramic composites (Kanchan) + epoxy composites and other things in varying proportions. The entire composition is classified. But certainly not 100% DMR 1700 steel.

So if 1000 mm RHA LOS is correct, then you cannot calculate the whole LOS thickness as made up of DMR 1700 steel. If that was the case the tank would weigh greater than 100 tons.
 
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