Indian Army T- 90 (Bhishma) and T- 72 (M-1) Tanks

[Aditya Ballal]

It's around 560mm against KE... add 150 to 200mm for K 5 & you have something like 700 to 760mm against KE in case of Russian tank & around 600 to 650mm in case of Indian.

Indian T 72 need an urgent replacement.

Yes. Soviets kept modifying there T 72 MBT. Most people get the opinion regarding T 72 from it's poor performance in gulf war without realising that Iraq used monkey models & its desi version, not the one russians were using.

Soviets were actually leading the charge.

1980 T-72 wins
T-72A - Protection: 410-500mm, APFSDS 3BM22: 380mm at 2km.
vs
M1 - Protection 350mm , APFSDS M735: 410mm at 2km.

1985 T-72 wins
T-72B/S w. Kontakt-1 - Protection 520–540mm, APFSDS 3BM26: 410mm at 2km
vs
M1A1 - Protection 400mm, APFSDS M829: 540mm at 2km.

1991 T-72 wins
T-72B w. Kontakt-5 - Protection 770–800mm, APFSDS 3BM48: 650mm at 2km.
vs
M1A1HA - Protection 600mm, APFSDS M829A1: 700mm at 2km.

Another thing we need to remember that Iraqi tank crews at the time were either lacking in the training department and had no real will to fight anymore as they’d not been paid salaries for months and some cases years, as Iraq was nearly bankrupt at the time after the Iran-Iraq wars, Falling oil prices, sanctions etc, they’d mostly given up on even posing a decent fight. I believe mainly the “elite” Repblican Guard armour regiments were given the Soviet made export T72s and regular amour regiments locally made “Lion of Babylon” Polish variants of the T72, which they began using inferior steel in order to reduce costs, hence were even worse then regular export T 72s.
Also the lack of night vision and range finders was another thing the Americans used to their advantage. Even majority of our T 72s lack thermals, but I don’t know about range finders.
I still will acknowledge that in the present scenario the T 72 in their present states are cannon fodder and are going to be used for the sake of numerical supremacy and diversion tactics etc.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

The only urgent and immediate short term solution I can think of for our T72 fleet is to Upgrade them ASAP with Alpha Design Technologies or LRDEs thermal sights and new FCSs, to atleast give them the night advantage as a lot of Chinese and Paki tanks still don’t feature modern nightvision or thermals.

 

[t 90s]

Another thing we need to remember that Iraqi tank crews at the time were either lacking in the training department and had no real will to fight anymore as they’d not been paid salaries for months and some cases years, as Iraq was nearly bankrupt at the time after the Iran-Iraq wars, Falling oil prices, sanctions etc, they’d mostly given up on even posing a decent fight. I believe mainly the “elite” Repblican Guard armour regiments were given the Soviet made export T72s and regular amour regiments locally made “Lion of Babylon” Polish variants of the T72, which they began using inferior steel in order to reduce costs, hence were even worse then regular export T 72s.
Also the lack of night vision and range finders was another thing the Americans used to their advantage. Even majority of our T 72s lack thermals, but I don’t know about range finders.
I still will acknowledge that in the present scenario the T 72 in their present states are cannon fodder and are going to be used for the sake of numerical supremacy and diversion tactics etc.

It's better to replace a thousand odd T 72 with T 90 in my opinion. India has ordered around 1674 T 90, order 806 more ( T 90M ). Take whole order to 2480 MBT. Upgrade rest of T 90 to M level. This can cover things for next 2 decade. enough time for NGMBT R&D .no need to go for Armata.

 

[WARREN SS]

case of Russian tank & around 600 to 650mm in case of Indian

Better than Al-khalid 1 And Al Kalid And there T-55 Zarrar
that is 60 % of PA Current inventory Bar T-80

So Far Only 1000 T-72 Will get ERA Mk2 upgrade

 

[t 90s]

Can anyone tell me the DOP or dimension of this 125mm MK1 ( AMK 340 ) APFSDS. This Biswas fellow claim 300mm at 68° from 2 km ( 800mm LOS ) which is complete BS by the way.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Can anyone tell me the DOP or dimension of this 125mm MK1 ( AMK 340 ) APFSDS. This Biswas fellow claim 300mm at 68° from 2 km ( 800mm LOS ) which is complete BS by the way.

It's drdo claiMing as such not kunal biswas

 

[t 90s]

It's drdo claiMing as such not kunal biswas

Could you provide the source. 300mm at 68° is 800mm LOS, extremely unlikely.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Can anyone tell me the DOP or dimension of this 125mm MK1 ( AMK 340 ) APFSDS. This Biswas fellow claim 300mm at 68° from 2 km ( 800mm LOS ) which is complete BS by the way.

Sounds about right, at about 550-600mm DoP at 0° . DRDO/OFB have mention it as 500-550mm DoP at 0° in their brochures as they usually mention only the conservative numbers as they need not market it about like any other company, since they literally have no competition and have a lifelong customer. 300mm at 68° is probably at the higher end of the DoP spectrum achieved. Penetration achieved will vary a lot each time due to external factors. @t 90s please explain how you calculated 800mm DoP at LoS?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

We currently have 550 mm DOP ( at 2 Km @0 degree). Tthe present autoloader + turret of T-72s and T-90s in service can have at maximum 600-650 mm DOP.
Beyong thatwe need longer APFSDS which further requires a change in autoloader + turret is needed.

Thus 2 different projects are underway in DRDO :
1. 600-650 mm (with curret set-up).
2. 700-800 mm (with modified autoloader + turret).

 

[t 90s]

Sounds about right, at about 550-600mm DoP at 0° . DRDO/OFB have mention it as 500-550mm DoP at 0° in their brochures as they usually mention only the conservative numbers as they need not market it about like any other company, since they literally have no competition and have a lifelong customer. 300mm at 68° is probably at the higher end of the DoP spectrum achieved. Penetration achieved will vary a lot each time due to external factors. @t 90s please explain how you calculated 800mm DoP at LoS?

68° is sloping from vertical, to calculate the LOS you first need to minus 68° from 90° ( 90°- 68° = 22°).
Using that angle & drawing a right angle triangle , we will be using sine while the opposite measurement will be 300mm & the hypotenuse is the LOS.
This will give us sine 22°= 300/ hypotenuse. Hypotenuse ( LOS ) = 300/sin( 22°) = 800mm LOS.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

68° is sloping from vertical, to calculate the LOS you first need to minus 68° from 90° ( 90°- 68° = 22°).
Using that angle & drawing a right angle triangle , we will be using sine while the opposite measurement will be 300mm & the hypotenuse is the LOS.
This will give us sine 22°= 300/ hypotenuse. Hypotenuse ( LOS ) = 300/sin( 22°) = 800mm LOS.

I do think Kunal is wrong about the 68° though, cuz so far DRDO has always given their DoP values at 0° and 60°, cuz if u take it as 60°, DoP at LoS is 600mm, which is what DRDO has mentioned(575mm+ at 0°) in its brochures.

 

[t 90s]

We currently have 550 mm DOP ( at 2 Km @0 degree). Tthe present autoloader + turret of T-72s and T-90s in service can have at maximum 600-650 mm DOP.
Beyong thatwe need longer APFSDS which further requires a change in autoloader + turret is needed.

Thus 2 different projects are underway in DRDO :
1. 600-650 mm (with curret set-up).
2. 700-800 mm (with modified autoloader + turret).

Than why we are buying BM 42 with 460mm DOP ?

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Than why we are buying BM 42 with 460mm DOP ?

I believe in the initial stages there were hiccups and delays in production by OFB and other suppliers which have now been resolved and the round is in production as of now.

 

[airstrike99]

Than why we are buying BM 42 with 460mm DOP ?

that's cuz army doesn't believe in reliability of any homemade products. it doesn't have proper long term planning unlike air force and naval forces. it want's to lobby with OFB and ruskies. and OFB can only manufacture 3BM 42 mango rounds. so they buy it.

they think changing a tank will solve problems instead of changing ammunition first.

 

[Tang]

Good one, Shows T90MS and M1A2 Abrams SEP v3 are comparable, with Abrams having an edge.

Further Trophy is not useful for APFSDS rounds

Also, T90MS uses a french imager.

Do we have an upgrade program for our T90s

 

[t 90s]

Good one, Shows T90MS and M1A2 Abrams SEP v3 are comparable, with Abrams having an edge.

Further Trophy is not useful for APFSDS rounds

Also, T90MS uses a french imager.

Do we have an upgrade program for our T90s

they will be getting ammo ,gun & APU upgrade.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

they will be getting ammo ,gun & APU upgrade.

Won't they get , aps too ?

 

[t 90s]

Won't they get , aps too ?

Don't know. Even if they do. They probably won't disclose it.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Don't know. Even if they do. They probably won't disclose it.

There was a rfi probably 800 aps too , few days back

 

[Marliii]

There was a rfi probably 800 aps too , few days back