Indian Army Spike Anti Tank Guided Missile Boost to Infantry Regiments

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
10,661
Likes
15,604
Country flag
Well in 1983 wire guided anti tank missiles are the need of the hour or the achievable new trend.
Those times devolpment is slow. Economic conditions are not favourable. We don't have good foriegn relation to buy technology. Everyone discarding us when then look at our economic crisis.
Every project we started in 80s or 90s had very slow speed.
But this science and technology and we have our share of success and failure. Everyone has in the past everyone will have in future despite of their budget whether it is small or large.
Now conditions are favourable. We have good missiles like agni bharmos aakash astra and so on.
Nag MPATGMS project has launch in 2015.
And performing at par with spike and javlins.
As you know spike failed in rajasthan and javelins rejected 3 times because spike performing better than it.
But we can not change them according to our needs.
But in future we will develop and modify nag according to our need and this capability is a million dollar profit.
Well, all the best. But how can you when the cost of 50 seekers is 32 cores (old prices must be more now)
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/v...&p=2290637&hilit=cost+of+NAG+seekers#p2290637
 

ezsasa

Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
14,093
Likes
40,644
Country flag
Please look in the BR Forum ....
but from 1983 to 2019 - that amount seems as probable. It is not budget bur probable cumulative project cost over 30 years.

IA requirement of missiles initially read as 8000.

https://www.defensenews.com/land/20...s-before-ordering-homemade-anti-tank-missile/
That's outlay for over all future procurement plans, doesn't mean that the amount is spent.
you are claiming 4.5 billion $ already spent.
i am trying to find DRDO parliamentary standing committee report of previous years, until last year i was tracking these reports religiously. no where such huge amounts have been allocated to NAG program. all DRDO projects worth over 100 crores have to be mentioned in those reports.

@ALBY @Indx TechStyle do you guys have any insight on this?
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
1,580
Likes
1,414
NAG missile as part of integrated missile development programme was conceived as man portable A/tk missile - to be second generation wire guided - Then when they found that missile is 40 kg and above and they are unable to make any MPATGM, they forgot about MPATGM and to save their skins started to developing HELINA and NAMIKA. By then Hellfire was catching everyone's imagination. So they embarked on making so called Indian Hellfire. Why does any one need a 40 kg+ missile to destroy a tank or APC?

The idea was to develop third generation , top attack, lock before launch etc etc A/tk missile. But they started with wire guided second generation missile which miserably failed.

Priority wise what is more important? HELINA, NAMIKA or MPATGM ? One does not have to be a genius to know that. However, DRDO have their own priority.

Ok , even if we go with you, DRDO started demonstrating MPATGM since 2005 and not 2015. It is about to be 2020 now. I take it that they will take another 30 years.

And what have we achieved? A missile propulsion motors and TNT filled tube which is fitted with unguaranteed, unproved and very costly foreign seeker which has proved useless. Foreign maal!!

MAYA MILI NA RAM.

The cost of project so far has been well over $4.5 billions. The cost of missile is well above $50 000 (Wiki). When it is finally declared as successful, the rate of production will be about 100 missiles pa. Indian Army's requirement is abou 85 000 missiles so how many years BDL will to deliver those 85 000.?

Why then DRDO is bent upon failing the Indian Army in battle?
Firstly, DRDO was never funded properly and the sanctions to make the NAG ATGM was continually sabotaged by revising GSQR.

The MPATGM started in 2015 only and it has reached trials already. I would call it a good success.

Well understood. That is why govt spends billions on DRDO and other scientific organisation. That is a permanent factor - not an excuse.
But if government dowsndofund or aemy changea GSQR every 2 years, how ro develop?
Well, all the best. But how can you when the cost of 50 seekers is 32 cores (old prices must be more now)
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/v...&p=2290637&hilit=cost+of+NAG+seekers#p2290637
Coat of seekers will come down once serial production starts. Making individual seekers is very expensive and difficult. Only after mass production starts, will coat come down
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
10,661
Likes
15,604
Country flag
That's outlay for over all future procurement plans, doesn't mean that the amount is spent.
you are claiming 4.5 billion $ already spent.
i am trying to find DRDO parliamentary standing committee report of previous years, until last year i was tracking these reports religiously. no where such huge amounts have been allocated to NAG program. all DRDO projects worth over 100 crores have to be mentioned in those reports.

@ALBY @Indx TechStyle do you guys have any insight on this?
Ok that figure is not correct.
So what will be proved ?
That 30 years delay was justified ?
That NAG MPATGM is fully indigenous ?
That NAG MPATGM is cheaper than foreign Mal ?
That NAG is MPATGM technically the best and out of the world missile ?
That it is worth taking a risk denuding your defences ? When Pakistan tank come churning our borders we should be ready for "Shahnshah Tussi great Ho - Tohfa Kabool karo"...

Do not miss the woods for the forest Come to the point..
 

harsh1912

New Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
9
Likes
23
NAG missile as part of integrated missile development programme was conceived as man portable A/tk missile - to be second generation wire guided - Then when they found that missile is 40 kg and above and they are unable to make any MPATGM, they forgot about MPATGM and to save their skins started to developing HELINA and NAMIKA. By then Hellfire was catching everyone's imagination. So they embarked on making so called Indian Hellfire. Why does any one need a 40 kg+ missile to destroy a tank or APC?

The idea was to develop third generation , top attack, lock before launch etc etc A/tk missile. But they started with wire guided second generation missile which miserably failed.

Priority wise what is more important? HELINA, NAMIKA or MPATGM ? One does not have to be a genius to know that. However, DRDO have their own priority.

Ok , even if we go with you, DRDO started demonstrating MPATGM since 2005 and not 2015. It is about to be 2020 now. I take it that they will take another 30 years.

And what have we achieved? A missile propulsion motors and TNT filled tube which is fitted with unguaranteed, unproved and very costly foreign seeker which has proved useless. Foreign maal!!

MAYA MILI NA RAM.

The cost of project so far has been well over $4.5 billions. The cost of missile is well above $50 000 (Wiki). When it is finally declared as successful, the rate of production will be about 100 missiles pa. Indian Army's requirement is abou 85 000 missiles so how many years BDL will to deliver those 85 000.?

Why then DRDO is bent upon failing the Indian Army in battle?
And you think our nag budget is at par with spike and jevlin devlopment budget.
Well, all the best. But how can you when the cost of 50 seekers is 32 cores (old prices must be more now)
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/v...&p=2290637&hilit=cost+of+NAG+seekers#p2290637
Well my friend you know very little about indigenization. Please read about it. It will cost more in beginning but in along run it is trillion dollars profit.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
10,661
Likes
15,604
Country flag
And you think our nag budget is at par with spike and jevlin devlopment budget.

Well my friend you know very little about indigenization. Please read about it. It will cost more in beginning but in along run it is trillion dollars profit.
If it is not possible say so and let the things run... there are plenty of missile makers...

come to the issue
 

Pandeyji

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
Messages
570
Likes
1,116
The Nag project was conceived in 1983 and since then you all ave been screwing it at government expenses .
Well you seem hell bent on proving your incomptence. The NAG missile program was started in 1983, the NAG MPATGM in 2015. A world of difference.

And even the NAG program was complete by 2010 but as I have proven before it was the army which threw a tantrum & stopped the induction on filmsiest of grounds.

But then again your posts show an accurate inability to process such complex ideas.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
10,661
Likes
15,604
Country flag
Well you seem hell bent on proving your incomptence. The NAG missile program was started in 1983, the NAG MPATGM in 2015. A world of difference.

And even the NAG program was complete by 2010 but as I have proven before it was the army which threw a tantrum & stopped the induction on filmsiest of grounds.

But then again your posts show an accurate inability to process such complex ideas.
Are Guru ab to banao...

Na Banaunga Na Lene Doonga ...
Rahne Do Tumase Na Hoga

I would never buy NAG at $50 000 per piece which is friendly to the target and inimical to user.
 

harsh1912

New Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
9
Likes
23
Are Guru ab to banao...

Na Banaunga Na Lene Doonga ...
Rahne Do Tumase Na Hoga

I would never buy NAG at $50 000 per piece which is friendly to the target and inimical to user.
No one is compelling you to buy ....... oh mate i am sorry to say no one is listening to you or me or us on the forum. But we can debate on advantages or disadvantages.
But my friend you are blindingly licking foreign products catalogues. Please debate on facts and my suggestion is everything related to defence is only decide by keeping one thing in mind nation first.
You want to protect your country then please see national interest.
You can see Chinese example..... they start making really poor quality now they are doing quiet well. Even we are not doing that poorly. And money does not matter if product is indigenous. Money that government paid go to our people and comes back with circulation. It is good for economy.
 

Kay

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,332
Country flag
On a lighter note:
T-90s may have thousand problems and shortcomings, but unko maaf kar do..galti ho jaate hai..when it comes to Indian products - kitna dete hain? Kitne mein aate hain?
Long live the brown sahibs of our army and our Imported Air Force - they are customers and customer is King, even when they pay with tax payers' money.
Benefits of indigenization - who cares?
IP rights - nehi chahiye.
Ability to upgrade continuously - kyun pareshan karte ho bhai
Forex savings - Bhai mujhse kya matlab hai. National security hai. Kharcha to karna parega.
Spend on RnD - Ye Saab chaye pe charcha karke Kya hoga. Point par ao.
Foreign maal - Abh Aya na point par..
 

Aaj ka hero

Has left
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
1,711
Likes
3,804
Country flag
On a lighter note:
T-90s may have thousand problems and shortcomings, but unko maaf kar do..galti ho jaate hai..when it comes to Indian products - kitna dete hain? Kitne mein aate hain?
Long live the brown sahibs of our army and our Imported Air Force - they are customers and customer is King, even when they pay with tax payers' money.
Benefits of indigenization - who cares?
IP rights - nehi chahiye.
Ability to upgrade continuously - kyun pareshan karte ho bhai
Forex savings - Bhai mujhse kya matlab hai. National security hai. Kharcha to karna parega.
Spend on RnD - Ye Saab chaye pe charcha karke Kya hoga. Point par ao.
Foreign maal - Abh Aya na point par..
Sir, you are at right point.
I have heard even army generals in the media forum saying "we need indigenous products" but all of them are retired(those who I heard).
But,still I get perplexed when this type of favor of import happen.
ONE of them is saying a lie, either OUR PRODUCTS REALLY DON'T PASS THE TRIALS or someone else does not want it.
Anyway, can I use your post in other forums. It is really good in sarcasm and right sarcasm.
 

Kay

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,332
Country flag
Sir, you are at right point.
I have heard even army generals in the media forum saying "we need indigenous products" but all of them are retired(those who I heard).
But,still I get perplexed when this type of favor of import happen.
ONE of them is saying a lie, either OUR PRODUCTS REALLY DON'T PASS THE TRIALS or someone else does not want it.
Anyway, can I use your post in other forums. It is really good in sarcasm and right sarcasm.
Sure. Honored. :smile:
.........
 

AUSTERLITZ

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
291
Likes
800
Country flag
Dont worry about pak armour..most of it is old junk t55 upgrades...t80ud and al khalid only modern types.We have twice the number of t90s than both combined.Apache..cbu 105 anti armour cluster bombs..is enough for them.
Kornets are kept for china though small in number..and 464 t90ms are coming for LAC because they have relikt and can fire better svinets1 apfsds with 750 mm pen at 2km rather than current 500-550mm with mango on t90s which is enough for pakis.
We have enough breathing space to develop indigeneous options.
 

patriots

Defense lover
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2017
Messages
3,398
Likes
9,378
Country flag
Maybe being bought for comparative trails with DRDO MPATGM, without having to have Israeli folks at the test site.
I believe these are stop gap solutions..
Also critical for a war scenario....
Also these missiles along with nag will give some time to drdo to complete mpatgm
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
10,661
Likes
15,604
Country flag
No one is compelling you to buy ....... oh mate i am sorry to say no one is listening to you or me or us on the forum. But we can debate on advantages or disadvantages.
But my friend you are blindingly licking foreign products catalogues. Please debate on facts and my suggestion is everything related to defence is only decide by keeping one thing in mind nation first.
You want to protect your country then please see national interest.
You can see Chinese example..... they start making really poor quality now they are doing quiet well. Even we are not doing that poorly. And money does not matter if product is indigenous. Money that government paid go to our people and comes back with circulation. It is good for economy.
Very interesting.......:pound::pound::pound:

What is "nation First" ? I suppose security of nation first than the security of PSUs and DRDO.
What is national interest ? When it comes to modernisation vs third class indigenisation, which one serves the nation better ?
You say Chinese products are poor quality ? It means your products are much superior to defeat Chinese mal. Which one is that ? Name a few .... including prices.

Is not PSU and DRDO paying money to foreign firms when a product is only of 20-30 indigenous component ?

Is there a competition between MoD and PSUs as to who will make payment to foreign company / country ? (thereby who will get commissions) ?

To sara jhagada ye hai ????:pound::pound::pound:
 

SajeevJino

Long walk
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
5,885
Likes
3,171
Country flag
No one is compelling you to buy ....... oh mate i am sorry to say no one is listening to you or me or us on the forum. But we can debate on advantages or disadvantages.
But my friend you are blindingly licking foreign products catalogues. Please debate on facts and my suggestion is everything related to defence is only decide by keeping one thing in mind nation first.
You want to protect your country then please see national interest.
You can see Chinese example..... they start making really poor quality now they are doing quiet well. Even we are not doing that poorly. And money does not matter if product is indigenous. Money that government paid go to our people and comes back with circulation. It is good for economy.

when your enemy comes with Rifle but you refuse to buy a rifle from your friend, Instead of opting your sword to fight ,

This what the current scenario, What we seeing the NAG today suits upto 2000, We are not gonna fight against the Syrian rebels or Baluchistan fighters , we gonna face the Pakistani Tank columns, they gonna rolls it by segments of 100s and 100.

Patriotic talks are so good in stages and forums , But it not suits for fights
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top