Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Lonewarrior]

You are right,, they did solve most of the problems, what concerns me really is the Sig 716i coming from their TREAD M400 platform <diff calibre>and its kind of an entry level AR but a fine rifle.Plus unless graphite powder or something like that is used in mountainous areas where temperature falls really low to keep the BCG going, the lube or oil mixed with muck might cause problems as it changes texture and become stiffen.
Plus with quicker bursts heat may become a problem. I just hope the Army brass also ordered thousands of accesories to mount on those monoliithic rails on Sigs.Only time will tell.And I do hope I am proved wrong on all these points , I just want my jawans to be safe and have the best the money can buy.

If I'm not wrong then SIG uses Ferritic Nitrocarburizing on its firearms.
It will definitely need lubrication, but the amount will be way lesser than current Mil Spec ARs.

 

[ALPHA126383]

If I'm not wrong then SIG uses Ferritic Nitrocarburizing on its firearms.
It will definitely need lubrication, but the amount will be way lesser than current Mil Spec ARs.

May your words be proven right, but remember this is s a new platform and customized for India in someway.All that we know about its performance is mostly theoretical.Unless used in combat,we can't say how effective it will be in our real world conditions.Esp with changing temperatures and barrel life deteriorating over time.

Only DI model of CAR 816 is CAR 815. Extremely unlikely given that we are paying $1150 for the CAR 816.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...uire-rifles-carbines/article25105913.ece/amp/

I fear that the Army Brass will fall for a lower priced DI rifle just

 

[ALPHA126383]

Only DI model of CAR 816 is CAR 815. Extremely unlikely given that we are paying $1150 for the CAR 816.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...uire-rifles-carbines/article25105913.ece/amp/

I would have wanted to see something like ARAD if proven in testing and trials, to be adopted in carbine role.

1.AR ergonomics.
2.GP
3.BArrel change to fire .300 BLACKOUT <5.56 round with 7.62x39 like punching power>
4.Lighter
5.IWI offering.

 

[ALPHA126383]

1. Tavor 7
As of now there is no requirement for something similar to Tavor 7.

2. Ace 52
We are already buying a glorified AK. No need to buy another.

3. ARAD
Probably the most realistic of all four. But it all depends on the price they offer us this Vs CAR816.

4. Carmel
Guessing by looks and whatever information we have in public domain about basic features it will be an expensive option.
Moreover it's currently in a quantum state, with equal chances of being the next SCAR or the next Berretta ARX.

Btw, I'm seriously falling in love with R K Sharma with each passing day.
The way he sells guns remind me of those salesmen going door to door with water filters

Given the experience of IWI and their closeness to India, I am in a way inlined towards ARAD.

1.AR ergonomic platform.
2.Can fire .300 BLACKOUT with barrel change without hiccups.<as advertised>
3.More experience to be shared if Made in India as compared to CARACAL who just started out mostly hiring other engineers and designers.
4.Galil ACE in 5.56 and 7.62 are AKs that have been perfected not glorified. Here in Colombia Indumil produces Galils /Tavors and all Israeli weapons for Armed Forces in collaboration with IWI.And boy, they couldn't be happier.
5.Brings all the bells and whistles that come with a modern reliable carbine<esp GP for me>
Just hope the Israelis smell the coffee and reduce the price a bit for the hundreds of thousands that can be ordered.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Given the experience of IWI and their closeness to India, I am in a way inlined towards ARAD.

1.AR ergonomic platform.
2.Can fire .300 BLACKOUT with barrel change without hiccups.<as advertised>
3.More experience to be shared if Made in India as compared to CARACAL who just started out mostly hiring other engineers and designers.
4.Galil ACE in 5.56 and 7.62 are AKs that have been perfected not glorified. Here in Colombia Indumil produces Galils /Tavors and all Israeli weapons for Armed Forces in collaboration with IWI.And boy, they couldn't be happier.
5.Brings all the bells and whistles that come with a modern reliable carbine<esp GP for me>
Just hope the Israelis smell the coffee and reduce the price a bit for the hundreds of thousands that can be ordered.

1. Same for CAR816.

2. Marketing gimmick.
Don't fall for it, you seem intelligent. As of now there isn't a significant example where a multi-caliber assault rifle with quick change barrel has been successfully fielded by an army. Many came and many went.

3. Nothing will happen like that. All the things you hear about Make in India or JV with PLR are because R K Sharma is trying his best to advertise IWI.
Manufacturing this kind of small batch of rifles here will do just one good, increase the price. IWI will try everything possible to lower the price.

4. Then so are AK-103M and INSAS 1C.

5. Same as CAR816.

 

[ALPHA126383]

1. Same for CAR816.

2. Marketing gimmick.
Don't fall for it, you seem intelligent. As of now there isn't a significant example where a multi-caliber assault rifle with quick change barrel has been successfully fielded by an army. Many came and many went.

3. Nothing will happen like that. All the things you hear about Make in India or JV with PLR are because R K Sharma is trying his best to advertise IWI.
Manufacturing this kind of small batch of rifles here will do just one good, increase the price. IWI will try everything possible to lower the price.

4. Then so are AK-103M and INSAS 1C.

5. Same as CAR816.

How many carbines are we looking to have if lets say this IWI , PLR deal goes through...

 

[Lonewarrior]

How many carbines are we looking to have if lets say this IWI , PLR deal goes through...

The previous tender was for 94k

 

[ALPHA126383]

But I mean looking at the collective of Paramilitaries and Army/Navy and state police forces...is it still that number of bound to go up...

 

[Lonewarrior]

But I mean looking at the collective of Paramilitaries and Army/Navy and state police forces...is it still that number of bound to go up...

94000 includes all three branches.

Paramilitaries and state police are pretty satisfied with Ghatak, TAR and 1C.
Unless an Israeli bombshell is included chances of order from them is pretty bleak.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Once a legend said this -

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Ultimately, the customer is the King and can choose whatever item he wants. All I can say is that the weapon that we have developed through hard work and extensive R&D matches any weapon of its class in the world

We have already produced about 120 pieces of the 7.62 x 51 mm assault rifles and during trials they have fired 2,400 rounds continuously with only 2-3 stops. This is in accordance with international standards. The rifle weighs only 3.8 kg (without magazine) and can fire 600 rounds/minute. With this weapon, we have also moved forward from a manufacturer to a designer,” Mahapatra said.
The last weapon that RFI built for the Army was the Insas 5.56 mm rifle. After the terror strike on the Army camp at Uri in September, 2016, the Army decided that it required a more lethal 7.62 x 51 mm rifle that would kill and not merely maim the enemy. This was when RFI began designing the rifle and came up with a prototype.

Many things changed in the design. We adopted modular technology and the rifle has a machined body with no rivets. We have always given the Army prevalence and used to build over 80,000 Insas rifles a year. The Army did not try out our new weapon. Over time, we have also developed the Ghatak 7.62 x 39 mm assault rifle. This is of the same quality as the AK-203 that the Ministry of Defence is now planning to build at Ordnance Factory Korwa in collaboration with Russia. The only difference is the Picatinny Rail (for fitting of accessories) that the Ghatak doesn’t have. That can always be fixed,” the GM added.
The factory now makes less than 2,000 Insas rifles per year. To survive, it has gone in for diversification and supplies nearly 42,000 weapons of various kinds every year to customers, both public and private. It is also exploring the export market for supply of its new weapons systems. Later this year, RFI will also offer its assault rifle to state police forces and other security agencies. According to Mahapatra, the Greyhounds of Telangana have already shown interest in the product.

 

[Lonewarrior]

We adopted modular technology and the rifle has a machined body with no rivets.

If this is what modular technology is supposed to be and your USP is machined body, and not to mention you brag that there are no rivets; believe me you still have a long way to catch up.

Why don't OFBs sell these world class rifles in the world?? At least try US civilian market.
Won't it be a tight slap on the face of MoD and DAC who rejected them.
Something Tonbo Imaging and MKU are doing for years by bagging good contracts in foreign markets.

But D-I-L-E-M-M-A

 

[ALPHA126383]

Ultimately, the customer is the King and can choose whatever item he wants. All I can say is that the weapon that we have developed through hard work and extensive R&D matches any weapon of its class in the world

We have already produced about 120 pieces of the 7.62 x 51 mm assault rifles and during trials they have fired 2,400 rounds continuously with only 2-3 stops. This is in accordance with international standards. The rifle weighs only 3.8 kg (without magazine) and can fire 600 rounds/minute. With this weapon, we have also moved forward from a manufacturer to a designer,” Mahapatra said.
The last weapon that RFI built for the Army was the Insas 5.56 mm rifle. After the terror strike on the Army camp at Uri in September, 2016, the Army decided that it required a more lethal 7.62 x 51 mm rifle that would kill and not merely maim the enemy. This was when RFI began designing the rifle and came up with a prototype.

Many things changed in the design. We adopted modular technology and the rifle has a machined body with no rivets. We have always given the Army prevalence and used to build over 80,000 Insas rifles a year. The Army did not try out our new weapon. Over time, we have also developed the Ghatak 7.62 x 39 mm assault rifle. This is of the same quality as the AK-203 that the Ministry of Defence is now planning to build at Ordnance Factory Korwa in collaboration with Russia. The only difference is the Picatinny Rail (for fitting of accessories) that the Ghatak doesn’t have. That can always be fixed,” the GM added.
The factory now makes less than 2,000 Insas rifles per year. To survive, it has gone in for diversification and supplies nearly 42,000 weapons of various kinds every year to customers, both public and private. It is also exploring the export market for supply of its new weapons systems. Later this year, RFI will also offer its assault rifle to state police forces and other security agencies. According to Mahapatra, the Greyhounds of Telangana have already shown interest in the product.

OFB weapons don't inspire awe or confidence.Simple as that.Based on the previous track record, to go for such a large order with them when the best they have done is develop an AK clone, and those other rifles just look like a mix of various rifles , no aesthetics, no new magazine for .308 , going with same SLR mag, little innovation and poor copying.

Ghatak being in the same league as Ak 203...I would have my doubts on that.

The metallury and tolerances and so many other finer things are way ahead in the Ak103, 203.A recent video of Ak 103 firing 1000 plus rounds and it keeps going.Have we ever seen a Meltdown /Mud /Cook off test etc of a Ghatak to show how its superior..NO. IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED.Seeing is believing.If their product is so superior let them show it.NO PR skills.Zilch. Nada. Like people said they haven't had a foreign customer for those amazing rifles.BTW that bulgy handguard on Ghatak looks terrible and is too big <dunno why> .

TAR an Arsenal clone is much better<modular and streamlined> But no new muzzle designs/compensator/flash hider....

AK 103 Meltdown Test.


All those claims of OFB and nothing to show for it to be able to get the Army to buy their products. Army would prefer a foreign manufacturer that is giving a modern product instead of OFB babus and experts giving a watered down offering which may work fine for state police units and paramilitaries but for a BATTLEFIELD use may raise some eyebrows.

This is a result of monopoly of Arms production by govt sector and lack of oversight. Let private players come in and let them compete. Do the OFB people keep up with the times by participating in meets like SHOT SHOW, Def expos etc to see the trends of small arms production and their applications....not likely.

OFB is mired in govt 'chalta hai' attitude when they can actually improve these products with time bound deliveries of Generation 2 /3 of these offerings.But they would have to do a lot.Last I heard there was a strike against the private players coming into their well. What can you say when the defence minister doesn't even know how to hold a machinegun for a photo op.Tells you a lot about MOD keeping up pace with Army doctrines, needs and then going for emergency purchases as a stop gap solution everytime.

I do Kadi Ninda of Honourable Def Minister



On the other hand POF does a better job as their ARMY directly oversees all the operations and they undertand eachother. Here Army places repeat order of Sig before Govt thinks of shoving down OFB rifles down their throat and I don't blame them.They need the best or the closest to the best money can buy.

I doubt OFB even understands what the Armed Forces will need. They couldn't come up with a modern short stroke gas piston rifle ,short barrel rifle for the Navy for use on ships with limited space.BTW those Amogh carbines look hideous.

Navy still using sterlings from another era. I doubt OFB even have a permanent Navy rep to consult with on applications and use of the rifles in changing times and scenarios.

Even the PAK SSGN use modern short barrel GP rifles for ops on ships.

Why can't the OFB make ZAHAL type accesories for existing AKs etc....that should have been easier....

RFI began to design the .308 rifle after Army asked them to, when they should have been working from day one on a similar rifle just incase ,looking at new designs etc and could have fielded a Gen 2 or 3 rifle with all the improvements by now.

I hope the govt overlooks the OFB and MOD nexus to give a fair chance to SSS and other private players to have a working small arms ecosystem in India.

It's my rant against the OFB, but I feel they need to pull up their socks.

 

[Bhadra]

Once a legend said this -

View attachment 53430

Why only four Yaara.... give soldiers 100 stones at no cost... that would be better... Let us close those sucking shops..

Local means what ?? The one who make it live off the salaries drawn out of Defense Estimate, the cost of their establishment is paid by MoD and they can not sell even a single piece in international market... they make money in parts. spares, metal, wood ... everything you name in those fours... then proceed on strikes in the time of emergency.

So in fact the cost of those four is more than the cost of the four rifles of imported mal.. please keep your labor union economics away...

 

[vampyrbladez]

May your words be proven right, but remember this is s a new platform and customized for India in someway.All that we know about its performance is mostly theoretical.Unless used in combat,we can't say how effective it will be in our real world conditions.Esp with changing temperatures and barrel life deteriorating over time.



I fear that the Army Brass will fall for a lower priced DI rifle just

Sig 716i Costs $ 1500 on the open market. Military price is $ 990.

CAR 816 Costs $1700-1900 on the open market. Military price is $1150.

BTW you can get CAR 815 for under $1000 on the open market. Calculate military price accordingly.

Sig 716i is exactly how the AR 10 was designed to be, the most controllable automatic .308 calibre firearm ever.

 

[revenge002]

Just file a case against them, they are obsolete their entire leadership comprises of UPSC,entire leadership of ofbs comprises of a candidate who come for UPSC, file a case against them then we are going to see fireworks how our leadership from top to bottom from politician to millitery to bureaucracy gucked the nationa through chalta Hain attitude.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Just file a case against them, they are obsolete their entire leadership comprises of UPSC,entire leadership of ofbs comprises of a candidate who come for UPSC, file a case against them then we are going to see fireworks how our leadership from top to bottom from politician to millitery to bureaucracy gucked the nationa through chalta Hain attitude.

It's going to be bit boring and off topic, but at last you will get me. So a hypothetical situation for you

You start observing that with each passing day the behaviour of your teenage son gets worse. Performance deteriorates and he gets involved in all sort of bad things.

Now you can do either one of two things.
Talk to him, ask his problems, scare him, beat the sh*t out of him if possible but save him.
Or; "replace" him with your neighbor's ideal son.
What will you do?

The biggest problem with OFB is government response to them. Instead of rectifying, the government itself says OFB is the White Elephant and we must involve private sector.

 

[ALPHA126383]

Sig 716i Costs $ 1500 on the open market. Military price is $ 990.

CAR 816 Costs $1700-1900 on the open market. Military price is $1150.

BTW you can get CAR 815 for under $1000 on the open market. Calculate military price accordingly.

Sig 716i is exactly how the AR 10 was designed to be, the most controllable automatic .308 calibre firearm ever.

In such orders of thousands <esp CARACAL> what is the probability that for Navy OTB capable GP short barrel rifle be ordered in limited numbers for their VBSS teams and MARCOS. Or does the Navy order like Army from its own pocket...

 

[Knowitall]

It would be nice if they just stick with Sig and mass produce them here in India which will also lead to price reduction.

 

[Lonewarrior]

In such orders of thousands <esp CARACAL> what is the probability that for Navy OTB capable GP short barrel rifle be ordered in limited numbers for their VBSS teams and MARCOS. Or does the Navy order like Army from its own pocket...

Usually orders for Navy, IAF or Coast Guards are included in big orders, called "Joint order" in MoD lingo.

Most of the time MARCOS orders off the shelf weapons. A good example is Tikka T3X TACT sniper rifle, as of now only MARCOS field them.