Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[ALPHA126383]

Dunno, but a DI system anyday would have much carbon buildup compared to Piston systems.A good Propellent could reduce that to some extent. Someone with knowhow on OFB manufacturing could enlighten us on that ...

 

[ALPHA126383]

I don't think so.I mean its expensive.Plus they had better offerings with overall more features like Sig 716i,a and other rifles from other manufactureres .It is a very good weapon though.

 

[ALPHA126383]

Primary factor was accuracy and recoil control under automatic fire. That's where a DI shines.

Cost was icing on the cake.

IA got a really good deal with this rifle. Sig knows it, that's why there is another order of 72,000 rifles.

Hey what is the likelyhood of the CAR816 deal also going the DI way , what about IWI ARAD being inducted...

 

[ALPHA126383]

Why not add another important point.

4. It sounds way cooler to have a SSP instead of having an average DI.

With the heat and extremes of climate that our guys operate in RELIABILITY is utmost alongwith Accuracy and less recoil.

Sig 716i and even G2 Patrol variant compared to G3 have lesser recoil, reason why Pakis going for DI in their next of line battlefield rifle the PK 18.

 

[Kchontha]

In the end you want to f### an amerekees pale gal but ended muster***** yourselvrs cause everybody knows pros n cons of di n ss.

 

[ALPHA126383]

In the end you want to f### an amerekees pale gal but ended muster***** yourselvrs cause everybody knows pros n cons of di n ss.

No not exactly, more like you looking for a long term reliable partner and getting a girl that sticks but may have infidelity issues plus heavy on maintenance, the last part of what you said would have been true had we got OFB .308 rifle in its present form.

 

[WolfPack86]

Four rifles with option of manufacturing under #MakeInIndia by PLR for #IndianArmy Tavor 7 ACE-52 Arad Carmel

 

[vampyrbladez]

Hey what is the likelyhood of the CAR816 deal also going the DI way , what about IWI ARAD being inducted...

Only DI model of CAR 816 is CAR 815. Extremely unlikely given that we are paying $1150 for the CAR 816.

Sig Sauer of the U.S. has emerged the lowest bidder with a quote of around $990 for the SIG 716 rifle. Caracal from the UAE made the lowest bid of around $1150 for its CAR 816 carbine.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...uire-rifles-carbines/article25105913.ece/amp/

 

[vampyrbladez]

Four rifles with option of manufacturing under #MakeInIndia by PLR for #IndianArmy Tavor 7 ACE-52 Arad Carmel

Somehow I really don't like the Carmel's design. ARAD and TAR-7 is my go to.

 

[vampyrbladez]

The most important part of SSPs that you didn't mention is the RELIABILITY, which time and again has been seen better in piston systems, reason why Armies who can afford a higher price are going for them.Yes the DIFFERENCE IS NEGLIGEBILE..but in what conditions...if its about taking potshots in semi auto DI with regular cleaning it is fine, but when it comes to being an actual more reliable BAttle Rifle that can do without cleaning and is overall more reliable sacrificing some accuracy and extra weight towards front, G2 Patrol would have been a better choice.

Firing Underwater even for many OTB certified weapons or in situations where they have to immediately come out of water and fire can lead to deformation or even damage to typically the barrel .The bigger the calibre the faster the water can drain, Due to this, it is much easier to have a 7.62 OTB weapon than a 5.56 OTB weapon.

Please go through this to dispel all illusions about SSP having reliability.

https://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/

 

[Lonewarrior]

I just hope it works well for the jawans in whose hands they will serve.

Well I think if SIG 716i satisfies this criteria then it will negate the need to argue on above five points. So let's see how it goes.

Btw,

Most US soldiers maintained their rifles very well , yet their M16s jammed like crazy in Vietnam.

Indeed M16 jammed badly in Vietnam, and I'm in no mood to do its face saving after 6 decades.
1. But you said soldiers maintained their rifles very well. And, how did they do that?
Coz IIRC M16s were issued without any kind of cleaning kits.
2. There was a serious problem with ammunitions.
3. The terrain in which US soldiers were fighting was quite new.
4. The rifle was in its infancy. Vietnam war was the first customer feedback.

 

[Gujjar_boy]

With the heat and extremes of climate that our guys operate in RELIABILITY is utmost alongwith Accuracy and less recoil.

Sig 716i and even G2 Patrol variant compared to G3 have lesser recoil, reason why Pakis going for DI in their next of line battlefield rifle the PK 18.

Pardon my ignorance, can you explain what is DI ?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Four rifles with option of manufacturing under #MakeInIndia by PLR for #IndianArmy Tavor 7 ACE-52 Arad Carmel

1. Tavor 7
As of now there is no requirement for something similar to Tavor 7.

2. Ace 52
We are already buying a glorified AK. No need to buy another.

3. ARAD
Probably the most realistic of all four. But it all depends on the price they offer us this Vs CAR816.

4. Carmel
Guessing by looks and whatever information we have in public domain about basic features it will be an expensive option.
Moreover it's currently in a quantum state, with equal chances of being the next SCAR or the next Berretta ARX.

Btw, I'm seriously falling in love with R K Sharma with each passing day.
The way he sells guns remind me of those salesmen going door to door with water filters

 

[Lonewarrior]

Pardon my ignorance, can you explain what is DI ?

1. Gas piston operated (can be long stroke, short stroke, annular, tappet).
Here gases from the barrel accumulate in a gas chamber and pushes a piston rearwards to start the cycling process after a round is fired. Like AKs, FAL, Garand, Dragunov.

2. Direct Impingement (DI) or true Direct Impingement.
Probably the simplest form of gas operation. A tube starts from the barrel and terminates on the face of the bolt carrier. Gas pressure accumulate in the tube and starts pushing the bolt carrier directly without need of any piston. As of now this type of operating mechanism is pretty much obsolete. A good example is MAS-49.

3. Modified Direct Impingement or hybrid gas piston.
Whenever you here someone say DI in today's context, it's most probably this one. Designed by Eugene Stoner, it uses a similar setup of gas tube like that of true DI to bring hot gases to the face of the bolt carrier but then uses an annular short stroke piston to actually start the cycling process. Here the bolt carrier itself acts as the piston head. All Stoner type rifles like AR-10 and AR-15 uses this.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

It seems even Bharat Forge, Kalyani is offering Rifles but no love from MoD

 

[Raj Malhotra]

'Raksha Anirveda'. Current issue has profiled Indian Companies manufacturing Small Arms

https://www.raksha-anirveda.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/RA_July-Sept-2020.pdf

via https://www.spansen.com/2020/07/small-arms-and-atamnirbhar-indian.html

Credit: Hiten BRF

 

[Suryavanshi]

Even mahindra has a license for 5.56 gun

 

[ARVION]

I think this is revelant to this Thread's.

 

[ALPHA126383]

Well I think if SIG 716i satisfies this criteria then it will negate the need to argue on above five points. So let's see how it goes.

Btw,

Indeed M16 jammed badly in Vietnam, and I'm in no mood to do its face saving after 6 decades.
1. But you said soldiers maintained their rifles very well. And, how did they do that?
Coz IIRC M16s were issued without any kind of cleaning kits.
2. There was a serious problem with ammunitions.
3. The terrain in which US soldiers were fighting was quite new.
4. The rifle was in its infancy. Vietnam war was the first customer feedback.

You are right,, they did solve most of the problems, what concerns me really is the Sig 716i coming from their TREAD M400 platform <diff calibre>and its kind of an entry level AR but a fine rifle.Plus unless graphite powder or something like that is used in mountainous areas where temperature falls really low to keep the BCG going, the lube or oil mixed with muck might cause problems as it changes texture and become stiffen.
Plus with quicker bursts heat may become a problem. I just hope the Army brass also ordered thousands of accesories to mount on those monoliithic rails on Sigs.Only time will tell.And I do hope I am proved wrong on all these points , I just want my jawans to be safe and have the best the money can buy.

 

[ALPHA126383]

Please go through this to dispel all illusions about SSP having reliability.

https://soldiersystems.net/2018/07/16/general-staff-requirement-gsr-new-assault-rifle/

Good article..thanks for that. So the takeaway is basically that Long Stroke wins over Short Stroke when it comes to reliability.Ofcourse it does, esp with AK platforms.But the Short Stroke Pistons<SSPs> when compared to DI<Direct Impingement> is more reliable talking of two capable rifles from each side.That is what is being discussed DI vs GP <SSP> .Long stroke wouldnt be here as most cause more recoil and it affects accuracy.

India is looking at AR platforms just like the Article says because of the ACCURACY FACTOR esp using the heavy .308. So compared to DI , SSP like HK417 or SIG 716 G2 are way more reliable <nor US ciivilian use but Army use>without a headturning diff in accuracy in Semi Auto.Nobody is talking about LSP here unless AK platforms are to be continued.


There are no Illusions here,there are facts being discussed here and opinions based on what is the best for us incase you didn't bother to read other posts. For me reliability of a rifle in a war like scenario will be an issue always.
Soldiers have died in Afghanistan with their hands trying to get that double feed or jam fixed in their M4s. We should do all that is necessary to keep those heroes safe who are most likely to die. For now its important for them to know the pros and the limitations of the Sig716i to make the best of it.